All you anti-American Pit Bull Terrier people...

[Bandogge]

Hopefully, a couple of minds will be opened, maybe some prior prejudice forgoten?

Not for minors, nor the sqeamish.

Video

[Core Shot]

Bahh. Mind not changed.
Sqeamish pictures are of redneck abusing animal owners. you can find pics of starving greyhounds, beagles etc.
Bite statistics are bullshit - yes other dogs (they cite labs and cockers) are more likely to "bite" but pits and rotties are top of the list when you look for "fatal" bites.
It is one thing to snap and scrape the flesh, but it is another to go off the charts insane and rip a small child to shreds - literally.

Yeah, cute pictures of kids and dogs, but the person who put that pit in bed with a NEWBORN should be shot and have their dog AND their kid taken away. Same goes for any breed of dog - you do not let infants and dogs together.

No matter what you say, I am always on heightend state of alert with the more dangerous (ie, deadly) breeds. I give them more quarter and am more careful about how I play with them.

[zion zig zag]

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. -Mark Twain

I'm not convinced. They are land sharks and should be outlawed. They have been bred to fight and be aggressive. Why is that so confusing?

[Game Over]

its not confusing at all flykdog, people are just ignorant.

[Bandogge]

"people are just ignorant."

I have spent a good deal of my life in the company of at least one APBT, at times several... 25 year's worth

I have worked APBT rescue, have helped rehab. and place abused/ neglected animals... Have rescued and kept unwanted APBT myself.

I have helped euthenize three month old puppies because they were born as "Pit bulls" in Breed Specific Legislation affected communities.

I have trained ATT and AAA Therapy dogs... APBT's at that.

Have known many people whose lives were literally saved by APBT's.

Have brought APBT's to my vet after having been shot, dragged behind a car, set on fire, clubbed, ran over, sprayed with caustic chemicals, or otherwise abused and mis-used, never once so much as growled at...

I have seen many short hair, muscular dog, regardless of breed, reffered to as "Pit Bulls" after an attack... Everything from a Lab/Boxer cross, to a small English Mastiff, regardless of breed-specific club affiliation, ped's... Prooving otherwise.

I have trainned literally dozens of placing OB and agility APBT's, as well as done PP work with a least a dozen more.

My father was once saved being trampled by a recalcitant Bull by a 37 pound Bitch whom gladly put her life on the line (And lost it.) to make sure her handler lived another day.

What is YOUR personal experience with the breed?

As, to call someone ignorant on any one subject, said accuser would naturally have greater understanding and personal experience with the subject?

I look forward to your reply.

[Game Over]

you can say whatever you will about individual experience, but you cant ignore the stats.

[13]

you say whatever you will about individual experience, but cant ignore the stats.

What stats? It's kinda hard to ignore stats that you fail to present.

[Game Over]

bite:fatal bite ratio of pits in comparison to other dog breeds.

[Game Over]

Oh and im sure a few Natzi's were good people. But does that make them all good people?

edit-look im not trying to start shit here, but to say the the pit is not a agressive breed is totally ignorant. They always will be suspect becasue it is a lot easier to breed traits (expecially behavioral traits) into a certian breed than it is to bread thoes traits out.

[13]

bite:fatal bite ratio of pits in comparison to other dog breeds.

A few things:

Bite:fatal bite ratio has no bearing whatsoever on how likely a pit bull is to bite compared to another breed.

It has everything to do with how likely a bite will be fatal if a pit bull bites. The ratio is pretty close because they have strong bites.

You may want to look up stats on bite incidence instead. Those are more relevant numbers when you are trying to quantify aggressiveness.

[Bandogge]

WHAT STATS???

From the Center for Disease Control

"The findings in breed-related deaths are subject to at least two limitations. First, because death-certificate data were not available, the two sources used for case finding in probably underestimated the number of DBRFs and may represent only 74% of actual cases. Second, to definitively determine whether certain breeds are disproportionately represented, breed-specific fatality rates should be calculated. The numerator for such rates requires complete ascertainment of deaths and an accurate determination of the breed involved, and the denominator requires reliable breed-specific population data (i.e., number of deaths involving a given breed divided by number of dogs of that breed). However, such denominator data are not available, and official registration or licensing data cannot be used because owners of certain breeds may be less likely than those owning other breeds to register or license their animals.

"Oh and im sure a few Natzi's were good people. But does that make them all good people?"

An absolutely preposterous comparaison at best, and for you to compare APBT's with Nazis only goes to show you are entering this discussion with firm, prior prejudice established against the breed, most, if not all of it based on fallacies.

"People are just ignorant"

Indeed, indeed.

[Game Over]

where did I ever claim not to be ignorant?

as for the argument at hand, whatever, I dont really care to discuss this. Your not going to change my mind and Im not going to change your mind. Your beef is not with me it is with the general consensus of the public that pits are agressive dogs. Laws have and will contuniue to be put into place and people with pits and other agressive dogs owners will get what they deserve when thier dog mames someone.

Am I saying the all pits suck? No I have met some great pits, but I have also seen some downright scary ones, just as I have seen scary dogs of other breeds. Its just that pits are more likely to get outta hand when shit hits the fan.

[Core Shot]

Nothing like beating a dead horse (or dog):
http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29802

Here's an actual CDC study: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

Results—During 1997 and 1998, at least 27 people
died of dog bite attacks (18 in 1997 and 9 in 1998). At
least 25 breeds of dogs have been involved in 238
human DBRF during the past 20 years. Pit bull-type
dogs and Rottweilers were involved in more than half of
these deaths.
. . .
From 1979 through 1996, dog attacks resulted in
more than 300 human dog bite-related fatalities
(DBRF) in the United States. Most victims were children.
Studies indicate that pit bull-type dogs were
involved in approximately a third of human DBRF
reported during the 12-year period from 1981 through
1992, and Rottweilers were responsible for about half
of human DBRF reported during the 4 years from 1993
through 1996.
. . .
Despite these limitations and concerns, the data
indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs
accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States
between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that
they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the
United States during that same period and, thus, there
appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities.

[Game Over]

Nothing like beating a dead horse (or dog):

or in this case humans.

[Bandogge]

"pits and other agressive dogs will get what they deserve when thier dog mames someone."

I WISH!!!

I have absolutelly no problems with holding all dogs at high standards... Dog attacks someone for no good reason; Dog goes under garden as fertilizer.

I have always pushed for dangerous dog laws in my local community as you have it worded... Based on the behaviour of the dog itself. If a dog has proven, through it's own actions to be dangerous, I'd be happy to drop the cur myself... And have on several occasions.

The problem is that dogs are no longer being based on individual actions/ behaviour in BSL-affected areas/ communities... Instead they are judged on which breed they belong to... Or, even more absurd, which "type" they belong to.

The breed prejudice has to be removed from the "Dangerous dog" designation, and EVERY animal to be judged by their own temp. and actions...

If a Pom killed a baby, I don't care that it only weighs 5 pounds, it's behaviour was dangerous, and the dog should be euth'ed on that basis alone.

I franky did not think we would agree on the color of the sky, steepconcrete, let alone dangerous dog legislation, but agree in entirety that dogs should be judged by their own merits, and not simply found guilty by association.

P

[Bandogge]

Coreshot,

Your own emphasis debunks the statistical worth of your quoted study.

"Pit bull-type
dogs and Rottweilers were involved in more than half of
these deaths."

Which would mean, NOT the American Pit Bull Terrier, but:

- The American Pit Bull Terrier
- The Staffordshire Bull Terrier
- The American Staffordshire Terrier
- The English Bull Terrier
- The American Bulldog
...

(...) to mean many dog commonly reported as "Pit Bull type" goes so far as to include Mastiffs, Bandogges, Boxer crosses, Large Terrier crosses.

A perfect example of this behaviour, and a bit of a test for 'ya:

Find the "Pit Bull"!

Of course the "Pit Bull Type" dogs will be resposible for more attacks than any other breed... As it lumps up breeds and crosses threof too numerous to name. A Presa attack is a "Pit Bull" attack. American Bulldog attack- "Pit Bull" attack, Corsican Cane attack - "Pit Bull" attack...

And this the very statistical problem mentionned by the CDC in my prior post... who'd of thunk it?

[PNWbrit]

Why spend the time and energy trying to train a pit bull to do stuff (aid, agility, OB, Therapy) that other breeds would do better? While all the time hoping that it'll never revert to type, go pyscho and kill someone?

Aren't there in fact just three real motivations to own one?

Legitimate need for killer dog

Illegitimate need for killer dog

Desire to be seen by society as owning possible killer dog

Apart from anything else the popularity of these dogs and the widespread fear of them means owners of "safe" breeds are forced to deal with draconian leash laws and one bite means a bullet ordinances.

I love dogs and will always own one but I'd happily see the "breed" and most importantly the fashion to own them become extinct.

[Game Over]

bandogge-
I think as far as dog laws go we are on the same side.

I respect that you obviously have a great love for the pit bread.

[Bandogge]

"Why spend the time and energy trying to train a pit bull to do stuff (aid, agility, OB, Therapy) that other breeds would do better?"

Do you know what the most titled dog in history is?

An American Pit Bull Terrier.

Diane Jessup's Dread:

SchH III, IPO III, TD, CD, U-CDX, WDS, STD-d, STD-s, WH, B, Ch.
(winner of two AKC and two UKC High In Trials, High in Trial for SchH III, High Score Protection SchH I/III,
1st pit bull to earn the IPO III title, first pit bull to earn ASCA herding dog titles. Used in five movies
and numerous advertisements.)

-Wiped GSD'a at their own game (Sch., Something dominated by GSD's and Mals since it's inception), winnig numerous high in trial.

-Wiped Boder Collies at AKC obed.

- Cleaned house on "standard" herding breeds, earnig it's ASCA hearding, along with high in eval.

-Should also add I owned an APBT that became a CKC woods grand night hunter, and ended up beating over fourty hunting Hounds of all sorts at a CKC Coon championship trial and winnig high in trial.

Numerous avenues at which APBT have competed, and won against breeds bred for said functions specifically... A dog breed competing against specialists and winning consistently!!!

"draconian leash laws"

Dogs should be on leash at ALL TIMES when not on the owners's, or a consenting party's private property... If you think that's draconian, you definetely have a screw loose.

[Pinner]

Nobody ever accused Bandogge of being a one-trick pony.

Until now.

[Core Shot]

Blah, blah blah.
DoggieDude, I respected you when you came to the defense of pitts in the intitial thread. You taught all of us a lot about legitimate defense dog training, etc.

But, you started this thread, and keep arguing with anyone that mildly disagrees with you.
Please stop.

P.S. - screw you and your doggy ID test. That is why the study said "pit bull type" and did not break it down by all your sub-breeds. Call them "bull terriers" if you want, it does not affect the fact that they have an increased fatility that is disproportionate to their population. Whether its the dog or the bad owners (prolly both) they have an elvated fatal bite statistic.

If all dogs fatally killed humans at the same rate, the top five breeds would be:
1 Labs (hmmm, any fatalities? only one in the CDC study)
2 Goldens (Hmmm, what? no fatalities at all? how could that possibly be!)
3 German Shephards (hey now, 3rd most popular dog in US and less fatal bites than Rotts and Pitts? And the most common police dog? and good for home and personal defense?? WTF mate?)
4 Beagle
5 Dachsund (ironically, there was one dachsund fatality in the study - how, I don't know)

--------
Heres the data for fatal bites from 1979 to 1998:
Pit bull-type 66 Fatal Bites (I couldnt find a listing for APB, but Bull Terriers are 68th 1,548 AKC registrations)
Rottweiler 39 Fatal Bites (16th most AKC registrations 17,498 )
German Shepherd 17 Fatal Bites (3rd most AKC registrations 46,046)

Note that there are are more than twice as many German Shephards as Rotts, and yet Rotts had twice as many fatalities (probably higher, considering that the popularity of rotts from 1979-1998 has skyrocketed).

[PNWbrit]

help I'm drowning in acronyms!

If pit bull type dogs were naturally as good or better at these specific roles don't you think that they'd have been used around the world for centuries rather than the hundreds of specialised breeds that man has bred to carry out the tasks?

I didn't say it was impossible to train a pit at these tasks but that it was unecessarily difficult and although trained the dog remained an unacceptable risk.

My dog and many others I know are perfectly safe and under full control off leash. I do not believe the same to be true of the overwhelming majority of pit bulls. Unlesss you can suggest a way of preventing them becoming street fashion and falling ino the hands of so many bad owners I think the breed does not justify it's place in the species.

[Pinner]

While that may be true, I still don't trust Brits off-leash. Afraid they'll go and boil the bacon or something.

[13]

Core Shot,

In addition to the flaws in the research that Bandogge pointed out, those stats show fatal bites by breed, not which breed is more likely to attack. There's a huge difference between the two concepts.

Based on those stats, I can reasonably conclude:

If a dog with strong jaws bites me, that I stand a very good chance of suffering severe injuries or death.

I don't think that anyone can reasonably conclude from those stats that pit bulls are more likely to bite me than other breeds.

Therefore, those stats are totally irrelevant in an argument that pit bulls are more likely to attack out of all the breeds.

PS - Your ignorance is showing. GSDs are not the most popular K-9, but a breed that looks very similar to GSDs.

[Core Shot]

Core Shot,

In addition to the flaws in the research that Bandogge pointed out, those stats show fatal bites by breed, not which breed is more likely to attack. There's a huge difference between the two concepts.

Based on those stats, I can reasonably conclude:

If a dog with strong jaws bites me, that I stand a very good chance of suffering severe injuries or death.

I don't think that anyone can reasonably conclude from those stats that pit bulls are more likely to bite me than other breeds.

Therefore, those stats are totally irrelevant in an argument that pit bulls are more likely to attack out of all the breeds.

PS - Your ignorance is showing. GSDs are not the most popular K-9, but a breed that looks very similar to GSDs.

Um, excuse me, but I tend to favor the AKC breed classification system. Sorry. What "breed" are these police dogs of which you speak? BTW, criticism only affects my side comment on police dogs, and does nothing to dilute the FACT that AKC GSD are twice as prevalent as AKC Rotts, and yet Rotts killed twice as many humans.

Two, you are really fucking ignorant if you think it is a case of "strong jaws"
It is the underlying personality and temperment that leads to a mauling rampage.
I never said it was "bite liklihood" - that is won by the most popular breeds, because "bite" includes nips and scratches.
My argument was never liklihood of attack, try re-reading my posts - I always focused on "fatal" bites.
For a calm dog, they may do a one bite "hey leave me alone". For a psycho killer dog, it will be bite bite bite until the whole house is covered in blood and guts.

edit:
Awww, look at the cute little puppy named Rex
Hey, he only killed his owners 12 year old boy becuase his jaws are strong.
That's why both he and the entire house are covered in blood.
Awww, cute lil puppy