35mm camera ?

[Big E]

Holy crap! You boys were busy last night. That topic went all day and had just about slid onto the 2nd page when left work yesterday at 6:30.

Wow, as usual, I could spend hours (actually, already have) searching the web to find scraps of useful info, or just post here, wait a day or so, and have more info than I can digest in one sitting. Thanks a ton for all the help.

I have done the digital point and shoot thing, borrowing my folks digi, and I really hate it. I end up not even taking pictures with it. The thing is, I only *think* I'd like to get into shooting photos. I really don't know for sure. But I do know that I want to shoot skiing and such, so that puts me into $$$ for digi. If I go film, I can spend way less and then find out if I really want to pursue this, or just stick to photoslutting Or cheerleading.

As an update on snowslider's offer, the lens is a Canon ultrasonic 35-105mm. Where does that fall in the grand scheme of lens things? The one thing that gives me some hesitation is Summit's comment that the Elan (not II) doesn't do so well on action stuff because it can't focus fast.

When I posted $200-300, I was really thinking body + lens, but obviously I'm a total photo JONG. If I can spend a little bit more and get something I apparently may never outgrow (like an EOS A-2), that's a fairly easy sell.

Decisions, decisions...

[snow_slider]

Yeah, sorry for the misinformation. I don't know why I though I had two separate lenses for it. The lens I DO have is a 35-105mm Canon lens (35-105 Canon EF 1:3.5 - 4.5, whatever all that stuff means). I'm a camera JONG, thus my never using this one. I'm sure Summit will know if it's a good lens or not.

E - You're welcome to try the camera out and see if you like it first. If you think it'll focus fast enough for you then it's yours, if not, then at least you're not out anything. Since I'm not into SLR cameras, I have no idea what the relative value is for all the stuff I have, but I was thinking somewhere in the $200 range.

On a side note, I'd just like to state that there's 6 inches of white on the ground and another 6-7 in the forecast for tomorrow. I guess this ranks as a Mid-Atlantic blizzard!!!

Showshoe, here I come!!!!!!!!!

[The AD]

Originally posted by SummitCo 1776
I'd still of avoid Sigma non pro lenses like smallpox. Sigma has always upgraded their firmware free of charge whenever canon changes their lens interface to screw with the 3rd party manufactuerers. See the Sigma website for details. http://www.sigmaphoto.com

The only Sigma lens I own is the 28-105 f/2.8-4. I was looking for a fairly cheap replacement for the Canon 28-105 that was lost with my camera bag. This is definitely not a pro lens, and the quality seems pretty good for the price, but I don't like the feel of the lens as well as my old Canon. Yes, Sigma did upgrade the firmware for free, but it does kind of suck to get the lens and not have it work right away.

[Eldo]

If you are hoping to take photos to sell to ski magazines, then go with a film camera. For most other possible purposes, you don't need the resolution of transparencies, so save up your money and go digital.

(But if your budget means it's either a film camera now, or no camera for a long time, then definitely get a film camera now and have some fun.)

Whatever you decide, just make sure to take your camera with you and use it! A camera left at home, or sitting in the car while you are on the ski slopes, is useless whether it is digital or film.

Eventually your buddies will get used to waiting while you get pix of them, at least once they see themselves in your photos...

Some photos from Lake Louise yesterday, Dec. 4/03.

http://www3.telus.net/public/geraldv...x/DEC4_101.JPG

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http://www3.telus.net/public/geraldv...x/DEC4_103.JPG

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http://www3.telus.net/public/geraldv...x/DEC4_107.JPG

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http://www3.telus.net/public/geraldv...x/DEC4_108.JPG

[GT40]

Originally posted by SummitCo 1776
GT-40 as to your "which lenses for the 1D or D2H?"

And I got confused as to whether you mean the Nikon D1 (and which flavor) or the Canon 1D (which flavor)?

Canon 1D


What kind of stuff do you want to shoot? Landscape? Portrait? Wildlife? Action (what kind)? Daytime mostly? Natural light? Night?

1. Ski action, 2. landscapes, 3. events w ppl. Daytime mostly.

What kind of work are you doing? Freelance or personal art?

Helping to record maggots, and so they can score more spancerships. Then as personal art.

Do you mean minimum of lenses as minimum cost or minimum lenses so you don't have to swap them as often or carry as many?

Min. swaping. ( hard to swap on a snowy mt. side?) Cost & weight not a bid deal.

Thanks so much for your help, for us camera JONGs.

[Big E]

Originally posted by Eldo
If you are hoping to take photos to sell to ski magazines, then go with a film camera.

(But if your budget means it's either a film camera now, or no camera for a long time, then definitely get a film camera now and have some fun.)

No aspirations to sell photos, no way I'm going to catch up to powderpygler, mbs, et al. Pretty much comes down to the 2nd sentence above. $$ distributed over a year (smaller outlay for camera, gradual for film & processing) is much more attractive than a large initial hit, which I'm just not going to do if that's what it meant.

I think for me, the digi vs. 35mm debate is dead.

GT, if you're a camera JONG, then I am so far below that I don't even know what the name is.

[midget]

Heh, I think we both got kinda carried away on this whole thing!

Completely ignored the price range and got on a battle on what WE would buy! But hopefully someone can use that info!

Another forum plug.... www.iphotoforum.com .....some pros lurk there, but mainly ameteur's, semi-pro, and people that just have fun with it. Good people. Lots of very knowledgeable people with very little attitude too.

If the cost factor up front is an issue then yah, 35mm all the way. Digi can be a huge hit from the start. Heh, I sold my race car to buy help offset the costs of the new camera (of course the race car was is the biggest money pit of them all) If you can afford quality digi, then go there....if you have a computer and / or are planning on buying one.

Before you spend gobs of money on camera gear, buy one of the above mentioned books, read it cover to cover. Understand the exposure you are creating, you'll be much happier with the results. John Shaw has 2 Landscape photography books. Both are excellent books.

One last thing (probably not really!) is to at the very least buy a grey card. Shooting in the snow can be tricky at first, it will trick your reflective light meter inside your camera. Meter off of the grey card, put your camera to manual and set it to what your reading from the card said and shoot. That's the cheap way. The expensive way it go get a stand alone light meter. That's the most accurate way you can do it, but the grey card will work. That's what I use cause it's cheap.

[midget]

[QUOTE]
http://www3.telus.net/public/geraldv...x/DEC4_101.JPG

That is an awesome shot man!

[cmor]

I've reverted back to film because its simpler, I'm lazy, and there aren't any comps to download your pics to when you're a couple days into the backcountry. A $300 film back is also comparable to a $1500 digital back, in terms of function. I would start with film, and if you want more, drop some penny and trade for digital.

[summit]

35-105mm is an old lens that produces pretty darn good pictures when you consider its a consumer zoom (ie, you want to stop down to f/6.7, f/8 or f/9 to hit the best quality output, which might hurt you on your shutter speed for freezing action (1/500s in broad daylight with exposing film at ISO100)). (I'm trying to remember if it is USM or AFD) It is a push-pull zoom, a design that bothers me because I have the push pull mechanism and zoom creep. It doesn't bother a lot of people. If snowslider is offering that 35-105, 70-210, Elan setup for $200-$300, he is offering you a hell of a deal pricewise assuming everything is in good condition, it's just that it might not be super suited to action. Then again, there are tons of pros that manual focus pro sports! Thats what they all did before AF.

You want USM lenses if you are doing AF because of their speed and . The Elan is a solid camera, but its AF is just not going to match an A2 or Elan II. I'm trying to remember whether it has a thumbwheel on the back. If not, the A2 and Elan II will be much easier to control.

midget: good call on the grey card... I never shoot snow without it. I shoot a lot of much print film. If I'm shooting slide film a often just spot meter the snow and then overexpose 1 and 2/3 stops from indicated. I still manage to screw up a lot snow scenes so I bracket.

Folks, shooting snow is tricky. If you are shooting film, you need to expose for the lowlights but if you don't do it right, you'll blow out the snow and lose all detail. You might want to bracket. Grey cards are super usefull. Err on the side of overexposure if you must.

With slide film, which is EXTREMELY picky about correct exposure, you expose for the highlights and er on the side of underexposure when you must. Bracket unless you are damned good.

Expose all your film 1/3 stop below its manufacturers ISO rating (treat 400 as 320, 100 as 80). TMX I expose at 64!

GT40... I'll think of some stuff while I work... break is over.

[Viva]

Summit, what do you feel is the best transparency film? I haven't done much photography the last decade. I used to use Agfa chrome 50 (Loved that film for the mountains!).

Been playing with a Nikon N90 the last couple of years with a higher-end 28-105.

Would a polarizer filter help much in a snow subject?

[The AD]

Originally posted by Viva
what do you feel is the best transparency film?

I'd put in my vote for Fuji Provia 100F, but I haven't used the Velvia 100 yet.

[summit]

I like Provia 100F, Velvia 50 (I haven't tried 100), Kodak E100S, E100VS (I haven't tried the G or GX). It depends on the subject. Underwater is Velvia or E100VS. Landscapes is usually Velvia or Provia.

Film is a matter of taste for a large part.

[Eldo]

Originally posted by SummitCo 1776
Then again, there are tons of pros that manual focus pro sports! Thats what they all did before AF...

Stop, you're making me feel old!

When I went through "photo school" we were not allowed to use autofocus at all. (The AF technology wasn't good enough for sports anyways.) And if we handed in an assignment with a contact sheet that showed we had been bracketing shots, our instructors would flip out.

We did go through some excellent learning stages though. We spent the first six months shooting only B&W neg film to learn basic concepts such as framing, composition, depth of field, etc. Then we switched to color slide film and quickly realized how awful our exposure control was. With B&W and color neg film you can miss the exposure almost three stops either way and still make a decent print. With color slide film, one stop off is a disaster. Digital cameras are different again. If you underexposure the shadows a couple of Fs you are still okay. But blow the highlights more than a stop and you are screwed.

(This thread is bringing back fond memories of college days and being papparazzi in training. Also vague recollections of lovely college women and late-night Crown Royal parties in the photo lab. )

[summit]

Well... you still didn't say what your goal was or what your subject matter would be. I'm going to assume that sense you are looking at the 1D and the D2H, you are looking for the capability to produce professional images. I'm going to assume that your mountainside comment means you are going to shoot ski action and or landscape.

So here it goes for high quality good range where weight and cost are not major factors and keeping to just two lenses for minimal switching. Strangely enough, your will still be spending more $$$ on the D2h/1D than on the two amazing lenses combined.

Nikon D2h/D1x/D1h/D1/D100 & Fuji S1 Pro/S2 Pro:
17-35mm f/2.8 ED AF-S (becomes a 26-52mm f/2.8)
and
70-200mm f/2.8 ED AF-S VR (becomes a 105-300mm f/2.8)

Canon setup for 1D:
Canon 16-35mm f/2.8 L USM (becomes 21-45.5mm f/2.8)
or
Canon 17-40mm f/4 L USM (becomes 22.5-52mm f/4)
or
Canon 24-70mm f/2.8 L USM (becomes 32-91mm f/2.8)

and

Canon 70-200mm f/2.8 L USM IS (92mm-262mm f/2.8)
or
Canon 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L USM IS (becomes 131-524mm f/4.5-5.6)

Canon setup for 1Ds:
Canon 24-70mm f/2.8 L USM (landscape, wide angle, normal, short tele, 2.8, this is a do everything wonder pro lens)
and
Canon 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L USM IS (this will help bigtime if you are shooting big mountain skiers, plus it will do single axis IS for moving subject tracking)

Canon setup for 10D/300D/D60/D30:
Canon 16-35mm f/2.8 L USM (becomes 25.5-56mm f/2.8)
or
Canon 17-40mm f/4 L USM (becomes 27.5-64mm f/4)

and
Canon 70-200mm f/2.8 L USM IS (112mm-320mm f/2.8)

[midget]

I end up losing my grey card half the time and end up just overexposing 2/3 to 1 stop then take a test shot and check the histogram....yah digi....

Film? Provia 100 all the way. If you need 400 you can push it to 400 pretty well. I haven't tried the Velvia 100 yet, but I'm going to go ahead and assume it's super contrasty like Velvia 50. Might be tough to shooot with the Velvia at any time but sunrise/sunset with the super contrasty film.

That being said, I never shoot anything but Fuji for skiing/snowboarding. I can't stand the colors in Kodak, but that's a personal preference. For skin tones, nothing beats Kodak though. For anything else I'd do nothing but Fuji.

GT40: I wouldn't go with the 1Ds. Super slow frame rate. If you are going to drop that much money for a camera body you really should get the framerate the 1D offers. 4.3mp is plenty for a full page print in a mag if it's sharp and shot at ISO 100-400.

If you do go with either of those cameras, 1D, 1Ds, 2Dh, make sure you get a super fast CF card. Microdrives are cheap, but they have moving parts, can break easy, and are slow.

Get one of the Ridata 52x, San Disk Extreme, or a Lexar 52x. It's worth the extra money. You don't want to miss a shot cause your CF card is slow. I have a 1gb microdrive. It was good enough for the 3fps 6.3mp D60, but it can't keep up with my 1D.

Those lens choices pretty much do it.....good selections Summit.
The one thing I might suggest is if you are considering the 70-200 2.8L is maybe to look at the non-IS lens. IS fucking rules, but it's expensive.

[summit]

Midget makes a crucial point about high speed cards if you want to shoot action.

Non IS? But he said money wasn't important!

Seriously though... I suggested the IS/VR lenses because with the effective focal length multiplier of the 1D and the D2h, those lenses start to get really long... plus if he ever wanted to put a 1.4X or 2X on it an still handhold...

But certainly right you are that in a budget, the non VR/IS would be the next choice. Also the 17-35mm f/2.8 L USM in place of the 16-35mm.

I agree that Kodak knows how to do reds and oranges (people) while Fuji is master of greens and blues (everything else).

I think (hope) he was looking at the 1D not the full frame $7000 1Ds.
I just listed the 1Ds lens setups... just cuz... I can dream, can't I?

Ok... I know what a bayer CMOS sensor, bayer CCD sensor, foveon CMOS sensor is... WTF is a JFET (junction field effect transistor) image sensor and what makes it cool (on the D2h)?

One of the camers now has an available buffer upgrade for like $200 that doubles its buffer capacity... it's either the 1D or the D1... I can't find the link.

I hope someone who is thinking about a D2h or 1D has a good monitor and is willing ot pay $300 for the software and device to properly calibrate it (which should be done once a month (do as I say, not as I do)).

My pick out of my above reccomendations:
Canon 1D /w 16-35mm f/2.8 L USM, 70-200mm f/2.8 L USM IS

I would add to that: 50mm f/1.4 USM, 2X L teleconverter, 550EX flash, fast memory cards, portable harddrive that can suck the cards clean, good backpack, extra batteries and/or external battery case, antifog eye piece, cable release, Gitzo carbon fiber tripod with appropriate fluid head.

Order all of that all at once and they might cut you a deal ~$7800.

Upgrade the camera buffer (if it one that can be).


I wish I had $7000...

Cheaper:
Canon 1D /w 17-35mm f/2.8 L USM, 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L USM IS

I would add to that: 50mm f/1.8 Mk II, 420EX flash, fast memory cards, portable harddrive that can suck the cards clean, good backpack, extra batteries and/or external battery case, antifog eye piece, cable release, Bogen aluminum tripod with appropriate fluid head.

Order all of that all at once and they might cut you a deal ~$6200.

Yes folks... photography will suck money faster than skiing... but that's part of the fun!

[GT40]

Midget & Summit, Your suggestions are very helpful. I think that seeing those final prices may have been a "reality check". I guess I could sell my GT40 to buy a new camera setup. I'll ask my kids which I should do. Now I can see why shooters want to sell their pics.

I've copied, all that you've said, so I could continue to learn from it. Thanks for your help.

[The AD]

Originally posted by SummitCo 1776
Ok... I know what a bayer CMOS sensor, bayer CCD sensor, foveon CMOS sensor is... WTF is a JFET (junction field effect transistor) image sensor and what makes it cool (on the D2h)?

JONG!!

Seriously, I think we need an electrical engineering maggot, not a photo maggot to answer that one.

[midget]

Originally posted by GT40
Midget & Summit, Your suggestions are very helpful. I think that seeing those final prices may have been a "reality check". I guess I could sell my GT40 to buy a new camera setup. I'll ask my kids which I should do. Now I can see why shooters want to sell their pics.

I've copied, all that you've said, so I could continue to learn from it. Thanks for your help.

Well, I sold my race prepped scirocco for my 1D....just depends on how important the camera is. I think I can guess how important the GT40 is....

[mtbakerskier]

Wow this thread got way to anal way to fast for me to wnat to put in my 2 cents, but what the hell i needa break from studying for finals.

Film VS. Digi.

Both have there vertues, film tends to be sharper and is what most mags perfer, but ONboard, just ran a digi shot taken on a D60 on there cover of there photo anual, so yes, digi is good egnough, Film is still sharper, but if your not seeling your images who cares, and if you are, yeah film can be a advantatge but it cost a shitload more in the long run.

Also you can do a lot of funky stuff with film that you cant do with digi, IE cross process.

I think that you are all forgeting hte most important part of photography, enjoyment, and the chaleenge in getting a badass shot, so who the Fu(k cares if you shoot digi / film as long as you are having fun.

Yes lenses do matter, invest yojur money here, camera bodies are always becoming outdated and dont affect the picture quality as much.

My advice to anyone wanting to learn photography. Get a full manual slr, with no auto features, and learn what each function does, IE shutter speeds, aperature etc. Only after you learn the basics about exposure depth of field, etc should you consider getting a camera with auto settings. this will force you to learn how to actually operte the damn thing off of auto.

Also buy a light meter and leanr to use it. Fu(k using the grey card, / guessing on over exposing bull shit, since htere is no set rules on geussing for shooting snow. a incident meter is always right. If you really insist on guessin a clear day on snow is always 1/1000 @ F5.6 for 100asa But you didnt here that from me

What I shoot?

Film, mostly 35mm but I tend to use just about anyformat i want depending on my mood situation etc.

Why I dont shoot digi?
The technology is still evolving too fast, im waiting to spend 5-8k on a body that wont get outdated in 6 months, But I WILL be shooting digi and film within 2 years.

And one more final thing, I am not going to get into the list my gear bullshit, cause it doesnt matter what gear you shoot, it only matters how you use it!!!

Websites to check out for buying gear.
BHphoto.com
KEHphoto.com

And the most important thing to remeber in this post:

HAVE FUN!!!!!!!! and post your pics so that we will all get stoked!

BTW I am drunkl off my ass studying organic chem, so if you dont like my spelling / typing then lick my anus after i havea good case of the beer shits in the morning

[midget]

Originally posted by mtbakerskier
Wow this thread got way to anal way to fast for me to wnat to put in my 2 cents, but what the hell i needa break from studying for finals.

I think that you are all forgeting hte most important part of photography, enjoyment, and the chaleenge in getting a badass shot, so who the Fu(k cares if you shoot digi / film as long as you are having fun.

My advice to anyone wanting to learn photography. Get a full manual slr, with no auto features, and learn what each function does, IE shutter speeds, aperature etc. Only after you learn the basics about exposure depth of field, etc should you consider getting a camera with auto settings. this will force you to learn how to actually operte the damn thing off of auto.

And the most important thing to remeber in this post:

HAVE FUN!!!!!!!! and post your pics so that we will all get stoked!

Yah, should have said something more like that....I just got in the digi/film battle with a few friends so I was fired up. I was wondering when you were going to chime in there mtbakerskier. BTW, your work rocks!

Really should have said something about the full manual thing. Grey card can be a cheapass temporary solution.....

Good luck on your finals

[The AD]

Originally posted by mtbakerskier
If you really insist on guessin a clear day on snow is always 1/1000 @ F5.6 for 100asa But you didnt here that from me

Like we're going to trust someone based at Mt. Baker for how to expose on a "clear day."

[Big E]

Summit, midget, mbs, etc. - thanks heaps for all the info. Clearly I'm not the only one wondering about this stuff.

Ended up scoring an A2 on e-bay on Friday for $375, came with BP-5, remote thingy, coupla batteries, something elase, and the 50mm f/1.8 II lens that was recommended. Everything but the VG-10. Got it yesterday (I don't know how it shipped that fast from Portland), it's like a brand new camera, everything in original box, etc, etc. Very stoked to go out and shoot. Also came with the Magic Lantern guide, so that should be helpful.

Now, gotta start shooting.

[gincognito]

You gonna bring that bad boy to Jay? I'm sure basom and alex will be happy to slut it up for ya...

Sick and ashamed and happy (and, ok, fine, I meant I'll be happy to slut it up for ya),
d.