Moment Skis Discussion

[Sargentdrufus]

Perception is key. They released a handful of custom skis at a discounted price (discounted from standard price for custom orders). I don't see the issue there. If anything - those who were looking to order a custom CBT just got lucky.

Exactly

[madriverfreeride]

I try to be positive on TGR as a general rule emphasizing what is good rather than what is poor, but honestly, the pricing is on that batch is pure BS and some grown up at Moment should have pulled the plug on it from a marketing / brand recognition point of view imho. The pricing makes Black Crows pricing of for instance the Nocta seem reasonable, which is an achievement in and of itself.

The various arguments of "small batch", "fan boys will buy them" or "tool costs" just does not cut the mustard.

If they are cost prohibitive to run as a (small) batch - even if the exploratory costs of running a new layup (that might morph into the new layup used for the Commander touring ski that more likely than not will be introduced for 2022) or a new lower weight CB offering that might not be a fairly popular JaPow ski - then just run them as a pro deal on the down low, do not try to recoup the cost on 6 - six - pairs of skis. Having an extremely limited number of fan boys pay for the development of something that probably has a much broader application for your range is just poor form (there are some pretty apt economic terms for said behaviour imho).

In this case the pricing should be so off brand that I would think that most recipients of that email do not think "oh I wish I could afford / justify that expenditure / investment", but go straight into "wtf are they thinking" mode.

I dunno. The funny part is that as I research the pricing across different markets is that here where I live in the socialist hell that is Scandinavia - if certain US pundits can be taken at their word - the market is a lot more competitive than over yonder. The level of price control you see in the US market would be 100% untenable over here. Moment at DPS pricing would also be 100% untenable. Hell DPS at DPS pricing does not sell all that well - the comparable layups from other manufacturers sell for significantly (like 50%) less over here, from brands such as Extrem that ever even produced in Scandinavia using prepreg glassfiber/carbon layups. Free market economy ftw eh.

Anyway, the criticism might be a bit off as I am not a potential customer for said good. I did buy a pair of Völkl BMT122s in 186, a somewhat comparable if way more directional take on a ski such as the CB at 1/4 of the price of the CBs (even if Moment marketing swager would indicate that the BMT122s are unrideable due to their softer middle section) The pricing just rubbed me the wrong way as a Moment fan boy.

Anyway.

I did enjoy my Wildcat108s before I passed them on though, and their new owner was beside himself. They are extremely nice skis, even if thay could benefit from a bit more weight and a slightly rounder behind the binding borderline tail flex pattern

I didn’t know the grinch lived in scandanavia

Last I checked the retail price on those carbon volkls you bought was $1200, and they made thousands of pairs of them pumped out of a factory with third world labor rates, and they still managed to weigh the same as the cb tours even with the fancy construction and limiting the mounting pattern to marker bindings only, and yet moment is the one ripping people off in this scenario.

[kid-kapow]

running the gauntlet a bit, deservedly so I guess. My usual approach to posts involving parts written when (very) annoyed is to write them, delete them and then wait a day and see if I still feel the same way (I usually do not, or if I do - then a bit more nuanced and calmer approach is chosen). I should have done the same in this instance.

Hey There,

I am the grown up that set this price. I buy all the material, run the financials and actually have an understanding of how much it costs to make this ski.

First off, the Chipotle Banana Tour is not the Nocta! How many Nocta's does Black Crows have Amer pump out? Thousands I am sure and they still charge a fortune. We made 6. Apples and oranges bud.

It doesn't matter if a ski is cost prohibitive to make... if someone wants us to make it and will pay for it (and we think the ski is rad and worthwhile), we will. That's why we make our own skis.

As I already stated, this ski and price point are not commonplace for us. We made it, so we offered it up to the world. Take it or leave it, this ski wasn't made to be a profit center for us or to cover development costs. We have no intention to put the Chipotle Banana Tour into production...

FYI, we do have a "custom" ski program we just don't advertise it. If someone emailed in and wanted this ski (which they have) and wanted us to make one pair the cost to that customer would be $1500. To sneak a ski like this into production costs a lot. We are not making a killing on customs so all your nonsense about what other companies charge and how they sell in Scandinavia doesn't really matter. The bulk of our skis are competitive in terms of pricing with all major brands in the American market.

We like making cool unique skis and we plan to continue to do it for a long time. To be able to do this we have to charge this rate.

This isn't a ski model that needs to compete with any other brand in the world because no other brand is going to make this ski.

yeah, my bad - I should refrained for certain parts of that post and worded other parts differently. Something unrelated got me a bit annoyed, and the pricing policy got me a bit riled up (again) and voila - here we are. I can but apologize for the tone of parts of the post and my choice of certain adjectives.

I am well aware of your custom program though, if not its pricing. If people are willing to pay 1500usd for that ski, well, good on you and them I guess. As mentioned below, that makes me even more impressed with the custom prices offered by Iggy, without trying to start a discussion on either custom program or their pricing strategies.

If that was not clear - my reference to BC was meant as a critique of BC's pricing too, which I personally think is way off from a value proposition. Then again they sell like hot cakes - so what do I know. I never said that they are identical skis or that they sell in equal quantities, but they sure slots into a similar niche wrt to ski design and application.

The bit on pricing in markets outside of the US was not a critique of Moment - like at all, but an observation on the entire sports equipment industry vs US capitalism vs special interest that I personally find a bit interesting. It is based on monitoring prices across a few markets over several years. It seems a bit counter intuitive that the market is seemingly freer over here, but such seems to be the case. Perhaps sales in the US market and the lack of strictly enforcable pricing controll is what enables the Euro market to be a bit more competitive as whole, I have no idea. I have no idea how the two markets (US vs Euroland) line up wrt units sold industry wide, though I do know that the sports segment is unusually strong pr capita in Scandinavia, even if that market is as you say pretty negliable compared to the US market.

It is so fascinating that some or maybe a few are upset about the pricing on 6 pairs of skis...as stated above if you don't like it, don't buy it.

If that was not apparent, my objection was the potential treatment of a fanboi, not the number of the units sold or the spread of costs across that unit. (braces for the inevitable reference to Melee's 1500usd price mention above and "yeah, but the fanboy is lucky to get to buy them at all" argument) Other information has since come to light that made me re-evaluate the pricing, even if a custom Moment ski will not be something I ever will consider due to the pricing.

Feel free to send Black Crows a note asking for a tour layup version the Nocta and let us know what they say. The fact these were made and offered at all is pretty damn awesome in and of itself.

Sure thing, though neither of those points addresses any of my points - so it is not like we are disagreeing.

I wonder which is more annoying to a CEO who has put their blood sweat and tears into building a viable company against the odds...in a capital-intensive industry which is also full of competitors who don’t have the same respect for doing things right, in the right place, with the right people...

-armchair designers (guilty myself at times)

Or

-armchair product managers

?

I know that this point is a bit obvious, but the reality of running a company is that sometimes you get called out for stuff you do, regardless of the amounts of time, sweat and effort you've put into the business. The same people who supports your business - both through direct sales and word of mouth - also sometimes will be critical of stuff that you do. That is just how it will be. You don't get just the positives.

If the behavior you were called out for warrented being called out for is a different proposition all together.

Who pissed in your cereal?
...
Now if you want to be up in arms about something productive...it should be why they haven't found an as needed printing company (like teespring) to sell posters of their AMAZING topsheet artwork they've had over the years.

A fellow Scandinavian being somewhat useless.

And that is a great idea. Moment's designs are usually pretty awesome.

Man we got some douche canoes up in here.

The CB and Nocta aren't close to the same ski for starters.

Secondly Black Crows pumps out thousands of Nocta's or rather Amer, pumps them out for them, and they still retail them for $950.

Moment does a crazy limited run on something very special that requires some extra work (that they do in house) and still manages to price them reasonably (considering the custom ski market) and people still gonna be unhappy. Get a life.

Luke classy response as usual.

I think replies like these are bit interesting - a mix of ad hominem and misrepresenting the points being made, though I guess I had the former coming and the latter is somewhat expected (and perhaps more indicative of the points being raised not being as well made as they could have been).

Again, my reference to BC was to a company that I personally think overcharges for their skis, but then again - who cares and it is not like they are not selling.

Perception is key. They released a handful of custom skis at a discounted price (discounted from standard price for custom orders). I don't see the issue there. If anything - those who were looking to order a custom CBT just got lucky.

yeah, knowing now that they usually charge 1500usd for that exact ski that makes bit of a difference. Though if anything, it also highlights how amazingly well ON3P's custom offerings are priced.

I didn’t know the grinch lived in scandanavia

Last I checked the retail price on those carbon volkls you bought was $1200, and they made thousands of pairs of them pumped out of a factory with third world labor rates, and they still managed to weigh the same as the cb tours even with the fancy construction and limiting the mounting pattern to marker bindings only, and yet moment is the one ripping people off in this scenario.

Well, now you do

It would surprise me greatly if the percentage of BMTs that are sold in Scandi and Euroland at full retail is very high (the market wide price control across all brands in the US market as a whole was critized in my original post). Again, if the online price on BMTs and V Werks skis has been any guide, discounts in the 10-30% range on the 900-1000usd sticker price (euroland pricing is lower) is common over here all season long.

The last I checked all of Völkl's V Werks skis are made in Germany. I have no idea how Reno and Straubing compares wrt labor costs, but Germany ain't no third world country wrt labor rates. Wrt to units sold and the respective business models / scales the comparison is pretty useless, I know.

I agree about the Marker binding malarky and have been critizing it for years. I think it is the most common critique I've made on this board.

[Sargentdrufus]

Ad hominem?

Guy I'm not looking to invalidate your argument in a debate setting by calling into question your character integrity etc.

I'm outright saying you're being a douche.

Good heavens. But then again it is our mistake for.giving your asinine commentary a response.

[Adrgha]

*snip*

I personally think Moments are priced quite competitively here in Norway, much due to Derutes generous coupon code handouts. I mean, getting 30% off current year models is pretty nice IMO. I know pricing on their standard line-up wasn't your point, but still.

How do you feel about SGN's pricing policy, then?

[DumbIdeasOnly]

Though if anything, it also highlights how amazingly well ON3P's custom offerings are priced.

I don't see any reason to turn this (or any other discussion) into Team Iggy vs. Team Melee but as an owner of both custom Moment & ON3P skis I don't perceive the issue quite the way you do. I think they're both great products from great companies. I can speculate about why they are priced differently though (this could all be totally wrong):

I think ON3P is trying to scale their custom program to get their average revenue per ski up. As part of that push, I assume Iggy figured out a way to optimize his production line to do one offs. You can even order custom configs from the website. The most obvious reason you would do this, which I think Iggy has even mentioned a couple of times, is that you have limited total manufacturing capacity and it doesn't decrease much when you do customs. Therefore you get the most revenue and potential profit dollars when you sell the highest priced skis.

Custom skis from Moment are like the secret menu at In-n-out if it was actually a secret, you have to know it exists to even ask about it. Moment probably haven't set their production line up to allow for customs efficiently and I'd be surprised if they did much more than 10 pairs a year of them. I think the tradeoff is that Moment can make more stock skis relative to their overall capacity, so they are less likely to be sold out of a popular model that is theoretically "stock" making it practically available only on custom (I know this isn't fair because of Rona but think about the ON3P women's specific line this year).

Again, I think they're both great companies with great products. I like them both a lot. I'm impressed they have managed to thrive in the challenging global ski equipment market and I am not going to criticize them for having slightly different business models when both seem like legitimate choices designed to deliver great products.

[Melee]

I don't see any reason to turn this (or any other discussion) into Team Iggy vs. Team Melee but as an owner of both custom Moment & ON3P skis I don't perceive the issue quite the way you do. I think they're both great products from great companies. I can speculate about why they are priced differently though (this could all be totally wrong):

I think ON3P is trying to scale their custom program to get their average revenue per ski up. As part of that push, I assume Iggy figured out a way to optimize his production line to do one offs. You can even order custom configs from the website. The most obvious reason you would do this, which I think Iggy has even mentioned a couple of times, is that you have limited total manufacturing capacity and it doesn't decrease much when you do customs. Therefore you get the most revenue and potential profit dollars when you sell the highest priced skis.

Custom skis from Moment are like the secret menu at In-n-out if it was actually a secret, you have to know it exists to even ask about it. Moment probably haven't set their production line up to allow for customs efficiently and I'd be surprised if they did much more than 10 pairs a year of them. I think the tradeoff is that Moment can make more stock skis relative to their overall capacity, so they are less likely to be sold out of a popular model that is theoretically "stock" making it practically available only on custom (I know this isn't fair because of Rona but think about the ON3P women's specific line this year).

Again, I think they're both great companies with great products. I like them both a lot. I'm impressed they have managed to thrive in the challenging global ski equipment market and I am not going to criticize them for having slightly different business models when both seem like legitimate choices designed to deliver great products.

The assumptions in this statement are pretty accurate. The Moment factory is setup to build our "stock" skis more than customs. That being said we are very nimble, and pump out a couple hundred customs a year. We also make prototypes almost weekly. The factory is optimized to make our stock skis and make a profit doing it while being competitive on price with the majors. Throwing customs in the mix even with the high price tag doesn't really help move the needle. If expensive customs were a worthwhile business venture in our eyes you see us promoting them more.... Also, customs construction and shape builds are cool in theory but we think that testing skis for awhile before sending them out to the world is a good idea.

[MHSP1497]

Also, customs construction and shape builds are cool in theory but we think that testing skis for awhile before sending them out to the world is a good idea.

This is the best line I’ve heard in awhile! Made me laugh!

[lemonhead]

This is so true and valued. I know that at one point I thought a custom DW with a bunch of metal was what I needed. Talked to Moment they let me know that they tried it and were tweaking the core lay-up and that I would like that. I loved my og dw that I sold and love my new ones even more. I am just grateful that Melee and staff will amuse our dumb ideas, and do their best to keep us from designing shitty skis. Try that with any of the big overseas groups....

[DumbIdeasOnly]

Also, customs construction and shape builds are cool in theory but we think that testing skis for awhile before sending them out to the world is a good idea.

I'm genuinely shocked you're doing that many a year and so few of them show up on social media but it's awesome.

And the above definitely made me laugh, ultra stiff PB&Js for beaters who live on the east coast are super fun though the new commanders might be closer to what I "should" have had after an abbreviated year of playing around with the stiff PB&Js.

[GoSlowGoFar]

Is the commander tour actually a thing?

[doebedoe]

Is the commander tour actually a thing?

That's what I wanna know.

My Yeti is getting long in the tooth and I haven't bought a moment ski in 2 whole years.

[XavierD]

[Melee]

Is the commander tour actually a thing?

Listen to the last podcast I did with Blister, I think I talked about it a bit there. We tested it a bunch a bunch of variations of it last year, ended up finding a lot of things that needed to be changed on the stock Commander from our results.

We focused on making the tweaks to the stock Commander and didn't have enough time to make a Commander Tour we were happy enough with to release to the world.

We are trying to do some cool stuff with the ski, more than just swapping out the core and calling it a tour ski.

We are also working on a lot of other promising prototypes so we will see what wins the new ski battle. Stay tuned.

[GoSlowGoFar]

That's what I wanna know.

My Yeti is getting long in the tooth and I haven't bought a moment ski in 2 whole years.

I hear ya. 100% would buy a Commander 98 Tour.

[GoSlowGoFar]

Listen to the last podcast I did with Blister, I think I talked about it a bit there. We tested it a bunch a bunch of variations of it last year, ended up finding a lot of things that needed to be changed on the stock Commander from our results.

We focused on making the tweaks to the stock Commander and didn't have enough time to make a Commander Tour we were happy enough with to release to the world.

We are trying to do some cool stuff with the ski, more than just swapping out the core and calling it a tour ski.

We are also working on a lot of other promising prototypes so we will see what wins the new ski battle. Stay tuned.

Sweet, thanks for the info Melee. I’ll give the podcast episode a listen.

[Melee]

I hear ya. 100% would buy a Commander 98 Tour.

Don't think they will be that narrow.

[GoSlowGoFar]

Don't think they will be that narrow.

All good, I know there’s more to a ski than width. Think upper 90s-mid-100s would be a sweet spot for my intentions. But I’ll defer to the ski manufacturer and tester...

[K1mJ0ngTr1ll]

It is so fascinating that some or maybe a few are upset about the pricing on 6 pairs of skis...as stated above if you don't like it, don't buy it. I know that Melee and company are extremely in tune with their customer base. I begged and pleaded to re release the Ghost Train. They did, I bought it, put shifts on and couldn't be happier. If I didn't have that setup plus Wildcat tours with voyagers to be mounted up I might be interested in the CBT. Skis are luxury items and I love to support a US based company that I can actually talk to real people when I have a question. That's why I ski moments and there are a half dozens plus hanging in the garage. No one cares about the price on a new special addition supercar or golf club.

Holy shit. This... Coming from a golf background before falling into skiing I did the same shit. I played hand crafted Japanese forged irons "Miura". Why? Because the quality is better!! Go take a look at the prices of some shit Taylormade iron set out of china that are on some year end clearance and go look at the price of the Jack Nicklaus baby blade special edition irons. I can tell you the taylormade is 1/4 the price. People act like there isn't a market for this price point.... PEOPLE HAVE MONEY, and those people buy what they want.

[iriponsnow]

Don't think they will be that narrow.

CMD 88 this spring.....

[Sargentdrufus]

Listen to the last podcast I did with Blister, I think I talked about it a bit there. We tested it a bunch a bunch of variations of it last year, ended up finding a lot of things that needed to be changed on the stock Commander from our results.

We focused on making the tweaks to the stock Commander and didn't have enough time to make a Commander Tour we were happy enough with to release to the world.

We are trying to do some cool stuff with the ski, more than just swapping out the core and calling it a tour ski.

We are also working on a lot of other promising prototypes so we will see what wins the new ski battle. Stay tuned.

On pins and needles. And with baited breath for sure.

[Speedfreak]

This is so true and valued. I know that at one point I thought a custom DW with a bunch of metal was what I needed. Talked to Moment they let me know that they tried it and were tweaking the core lay-up and that I would like that. I loved my og dw that I sold and love my new ones even more. I am just grateful that Melee and staff will amuse our dumb ideas, and do their best to keep us from designing shitty skis. Try that with any of the big overseas groups....

Ain't that the truth. I had a pair of "stiff" Underworlds built a few years back to replace my stock-flex ones. After chatting with Melee - who convinced me to go a *bit* softer than I was asking for - they friggin NAILED the build.

At this point those beauties spend the entire winter in the truck/travel bag (or pack mule, haha - see photos) and are my go-to touring planks wherever I'm going, from multi-day adventures to local pow-tour days when I have other fatter options available in the garage. They'll be skied to death or pried off my cold dead feet, whichever comes first.


Lesson: Listen to Melee.


You can spot those blue sidewalls from a mile away.
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Jebel Tarkeddit
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[sruffian]

took the deathwish tours out for a test drive today. just tooling around firm stuff but good god these things rip. can definitely drive them harder than anything under 2000g i've been on and still super fun on spin on etc

[KM14]

What's the preferred mounting for DWT 184? I'm on the bigger side for this size 5'11" 195lbs. Playful directional skier. Mount on the line or 1cm back?

[lemonhead]

I would go line.

What's the preferred mounting for DWT 184? I'm on the bigger side for this size 5'11" 195lbs. Playful directional skier. Mount on the line or 1cm back?