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Thread: TdF Stage 16

  1. #1
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    TdF Stage 16

    The irony...Oscar Pereiro, who bitched after Stage 15 that George sucked his wheel then attacked before the line for the win, sucks Cadel Evans wheel right before the finish and then attacks for the win.

    Lance all the more closer to his 7th, I think the most action to happen at this point will be the ITT on Saturday where there should be some GC shuffling, hopefully Levi or Floyd can crack the Top 5.


    Stage:

    1 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 4.38.40
    2 Xabier Zandio (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne
    3 Eddy Mazzoleni (Ita) Lampre-Caffita
    4 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto
    5 Philippe Gilbert (Bel) Française Des Jeux + 2.25
    6 Anthony Geslin (Fra) Bouygues Telecom
    7 Jörg Ludewig (Ger) Domina Vacanze
    8 Juan Antonio Flecha (Spa) Fassa Bortolo
    9 Ludovic Turpin (Fra) Ag2r-Prevoyance
    10 Cédric Vasseur (Fra) Cofidis, Le Credit Par Telephone

    General classification:

    1 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel 66.52.03
    2 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC + 2.46
    3 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank + 3.09
    4 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team + 5.58
    5 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne + 6.31
    6 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner + 7.35
    7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto + 9.29
    8 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems + 9.33
    9 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team + 9.38
    10 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Credit Agricole + 11.47


    Results courtesy of cyclingnews.com
    Last edited by Artie Fufkin; 07-19-2005 at 10:18 AM.

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    I would love to see Levi make top 5. That would be his best finish ever right? How is he at TT's? Not so concerned about Floyd, but I think it would be great to see Armstrong, Basso, and Ullrich on the podium. That would be a finish for the ages.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telephil
    I would love to see Levi make top 5. That would be his best finish ever right? How is he at TT's? Not so concerned about Floyd, but I think it would be great to see Armstrong, Basso, and Ullrich on the podium. That would be a finish for the ages.

    Levi has TT skills, and he has made it a point to improve his TT bike positioning this year, he can hang with the best and should be able to move up, from Stage 1:


    Results
    1 David Zabriskie (USA) Team CSC 20.51 (54.67 km/h)
    2 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel 0.02
    3 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team 0.53
    4 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel 0.57
    5 Laszlo Bodrogi (Hun) Credit Agricole 0.59
    6 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 1.02
    7 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Fassa Bortolo
    8 Jens Voigt (Ger) Team CSC 1.04
    9 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 1.05
    10 Igor Gonzalez de Galdeano (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth 1.06
    11 Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC 1.07
    12 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 1.08
    13 Jose Enrique Gutierrez (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 1.12
    14 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner 1.13

  4. #4
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    I wish Evans had won the stage since he had such a righteous motivation.

    ++++++ vibes to the friends and families of the Aussie womens road racing team.
    Recently overheard: "Hey Ralph, what were you drinking that time that you set your face on fire?"

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    JONG Road Bike ?:

    On climbs, does "sucking the wheel" provide are aero advantage or is it just pacing. It seems like a contradicion, on what hand your hear "there is no where to hide from gravity" and on the other "Ullich brought Lance back to Vino".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
    JONG Road Bike ?:

    On climbs, does "sucking the wheel" provide are aero advantage or is it just pacing. It seems like a contradicion, on what hand your hear "there is no where to hide from gravity" and on the other "Ullich brought Lance back to Vino".
    I would think that it is both, it always help to have someone setting tempo on a climb. Just look how Lance uses his teams on climbs and how he has been using other riders, letting them counter attacks and then riding their wheel. As for aero advantage, if you are going uphill into a headwind, the person on the front is going to be puting forth more effort.

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    I would agree that there is a pretty significant drafting advantage, especially on the Pyrenees stages where it was quite windy and not many trees. Even at the ~15mph these guys are climbing the steepest stages, not taking the wind will definitely reduce the load.

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    For most roadies, there's not much advantage to sucking wheel on hills, but these guys go up 6% grades at 20mph. Anything over 14-16 mph, and you get a draft, for sure.

    But it definitely has something to do with pacing, too... it's just easier to stare at someone's hub and focus all your pain on it and let him worry about hitting stuff or driving off the road.
    It's idomatic, beatch.

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    I would see no adantage for me to draft in a climb. This is largely due to my high weight to power ratio

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    they say that 60% of a rider's energy goes to peadaling against the wind. Who is "they" i have no idea. But that is what i remember hearing.
    More fucked up than a cricket in a hubcap

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    Good article that I came across early this season, explains a lot about tactics.
    (Sorry for the length)

    UTAH VALLEY RACING
    TEAM RACING & TACTICS
    BY COACH CARL HAUNS

    Individual Tactics 1

    Individual tactics are built around a combination of aerodynamics, drafting, and the fatigue characteristics of the human body in relation to fitness level. If two riders of the same size are traveling at 25 miles per hour on flat ground with no wind blowing and the rear rider has his front wheel six inches behind the rear wheel of the front rider, the rider in the rear is doing 30% less work than the rider in the front. At higher speeds or in the middle of a pack, he is doing relatively even less work. At slower speeds, the work difference decreases.
    If you have three riders who are the same size and same fitness level riding under the same conditions as above and two of the riders are working together with the third rider riding by himself, the two riders will pull away from the third rider as their riding distance increases. To ride a rider off of your rear wheel under the above conditions, you must be at least 31% stronger than the rider on your wheel.

    These are the fundamental principles upon which all racing strategies and tactics are based. Learn them.

    IF WE CAN’T DRAFT EFFICENTLY NONE OF THESE TACTICS WILL WORK.

    Pace line
    LEARN TO WALK BEFORE YOU RUN
    Pace line is when two or more riders use the above principles to ride faster for a longer distance by taking turns "breaking wind" or taking short efforts on the front. Each rider takes a short pull on the front, swings out, slows down, lets the other rider pull through at a steady pace, moves to the other rider's wheel, and rests and recovers at 30% less work so he can pull harder when he gets back to the front. Normally, riders of equal strength take 25 strokes (revolutions of one crank arm) on the front. This will vary pending relative rider strengths and race tactics.

    KEEP READING THIS GETS VERY GOOD ESPECIALLY THE END.
    The Ideal Race
    The ideal race has three steps to it. It starts out with the pack and develops to a small break off the front of the pack with all of the riders working together to gain as much distance as possible on the chasing peleton (pack) behind. There is an unspoken alliance between the racers in the break to work together to eliminate the other racers from having a chance to win the race before they resume hostilities against each other. As soon as one of the riders believes that the peleton cannot catch them before the finish, the battle for first place resumes between the riders in the break. Then one rider will break away from the others and solo in for a safe and secure win. The last few miles of the race should be a victory ride.
    The basic strategy of this is to work with a few to eliminate most of the riders and then eliminate the few.
    It is generally understood that no tactic is good enough to beat you if the rider making the move is a quarter of a mile behind you at the finish line. Know that any rider who can stay with you can beat you.
    Even the best sprinters prefer this break away strategy because your chances of winning a sprint in a pack of ten riders is ten times better than in a pack of 100 riders. Besides, in the pack of ten riders, the worst you can get is tenth. In the pack of 100 riders, the worst you can get is 100th. You choose. Your chances of crashing or being boxed out of the sprint in the break are also much less.
    But, you ask,” How can ten riders or less out ride 90 riders or more?" There are three basic reasons why this is not only possible but, if you know how to do it, surprisingly easy. These are peleton structure, peleton evolution, and psychology (there's that P word again.)

    Peleton Structure
    The pro's know that never more than about 30% of a peleton is a major factor in a bicycle race. The promoters who understand this call the other 70% of the peleton "pack filler." Most of the other 70% of the peleton fall into one of three categories. The first group consists of the riders who are sitting in to save it for the finish. They rarely, if ever, go to the front and do some work. Their legs are useless to the peleton for the chase effort.
    The second group of riders in that 70% consists of the riders who are barely strong enough to hold on at the back. They spend the entire race hanging on hoping they can stay with the pack to the finish. You almost never see these riders at the front of the peleton either.
    Last edited by Telephil; 07-19-2005 at 02:17 PM.

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    The third group is a few good riders who have either been injured or sick and are trying to recover. They may be riding for an easy workout or trying to recover their strength.

    As a matter of fact, there is never more than five or six riders who are strong contenders for any race including the Tour de France. There are about five to ten riders who have a fair chance at winning and then about 10 to 20 long shots whom, if something strange happens, they could win. This fact is used by experienced racers to conserve energy and increase their consistency in winning by not chasing riders who can't win or are a long shot. They only ride against the hand full that are serious threats. Occasionally, this permits an underdog to win. But not very often. Know your competition.

    Team racing uses these very principles and takes them a step further. If you are in a pack of 100 riders and only 30 will significantly contribute to the outcome of the race, you, as an individual, are racing against 29 other riders. But, if nine of those riders are your team mates who will work for a team win, you are only working against 20 other riders. Team racing does two things. It eliminates some of the stronger riders from chasing you (your team mates) and provides you with riders who will interfere with the efforts of others which effectively eliminates even more legs from the chase effort against you. Now you can see why team racing increases your chances of winning and winning consistency. Suddenly, we don't want this to be an individual sport, do we? Pass the team, please.

    The main point here is that there are only so many workers in the bike race that you will have to beat.

    As a point of interest here, you will notice that most of the riders who are in the top 30% of a local pro-am race will not be in the top 30% in a national level pro-am race. Most of the riders who are in the top 30% of a national pro-am race with not be in the top 30% of an international pro race. This is very important to keep in mind when considering moving up to a higher level team. A team leader on a local team may only be a good domestic on a regional team and a team leader on a regional team may only be a good domestic on a national team. You may want to remain at your level until you can prove that you are ready to be a team leader at the next highest level. I have seen a lot of riders go up a level for a year or so, struggle, not be very happy, return to the lower level, consistently win, and be very happy.
    How is this significant to you as a bike racer? It means that you have to set your race strategy based on who else is at the race. If your team is a top five team in a local race, in a national race, you may be racing for a stage win, KOM, Points Leader, or to put your team in the top three to five on team GC. Also, you'll set your strategy one way to beat a tough defensive team and another way to beat a tough offensive team. You have to include your competition in your team strategy.

    Peleton Evolution
    The pro's know that the peleton goes through a number of changes during the race. When the race first starts and the pack is still fresh, everyone who can and is willing to go to the front and help chase breaks, will help chase. As legs tire, fewer and fewer riders show their faces at the front. This means there will be fewer and fewer legs contributing to the chase as legs break.
    The peleton will finally reach a point to where someone will attack and all the chasers are so tired they hesitate, waiting for someone else to chase. This is commonly referred to as the crunch and is where the "big boys" consistently make their winning move. When the break goes up the road, there will only be a few riders in the peleton who are willing to chase and missed the winning break.

    From here, the peleton evolves one more time. The few riders who want to chase will attempt to force the pace on the front but when they swing out for the next rider to take a pull, the rider will slow down causing the peleton to lose ground on the break. This will eventually frustrate the few strong riders left in the peleton who will begin attacking in an effort to break away and bridge up to the break. Most of the time, this puts them in a catch 22. The tired riders in the peleton will chase the stronger riders in the peleton because the attacking riders are close but will not chase the winning break which is much further away. As riders fatigue, their ability to focus up the road, decreases but they can still focus on the front or just off of the front of the peleton. This causes the riders to individually shift their focus from a break to the front of the peleton as they get tired and to race for what is left.

    This constant attacking by the remaining strong riders in the peleton causes the other riders in the peleton to shift their focus from the break to the attacking riders in the peleton even faster to keep them from also getting away. The attacking riders become the most immediate threat. This results in the peleton shifting or evolving to racing for "what's left." At this point, the peleton wont catch anyone except, occasionally, by accident. But that is very rare.

    Psychology
    I have also learned a very important thing about rider focus. Different riders have different abilities to focus on a break and, therefore, chase it. This also varies from category to category and from class to class.
    In Men's category four and five racing, most riders cannot focus on a break which is more than 15 to 20 seconds up the road even if the break is still in sight. They will also lose their focus on a break as soon as it leaves their sight. You will find that, if you can get just 20 seconds up the road, they will shift their focus from you back to the peleton and begin racing for what is left. Beginning racers have very poor ability to focus on a break because of their lack of experience.

    We used this knowledge to win a lot of races. Don't believe it? Watch this. The loss of focus point for Men's cat 3's and most Women's and Junior packs is at about 30 to 40 seconds. Men's cat 1 and 2 riders tend to lose focus at about 50 seconds and the lower level pro's tend to lose focus at about one minute. The best pro's? They could keep their focus if you were on the back side of the Moon because they have learned not to focus on you but on their pace. They just remember you are out there and don't stop working until you aren't any more.

    If you put all of this together, then you can see how the pro's manage to win with big solo's. Learn it and use it. Remember all of this for when we get to the team tactics. You will see how the pro's use all of this to develop their team tactics. But smart riders who are racing locally or without a team also use this knowledge to increase their chances of winning.

    Evolving The Peleton
    A strong, experienced racer will use tactics to cause the peleton to evolve so they can break away. A smart, strong rider will use tactically placed attacks to fatigue his competition so that they will be less willing to chase when he decides to go up the road. Team racing does this even more so.
    When I was racing and realized that I had tired my competitors so they didn't want to chase, I had a "not so friendly" little tactic I liked to use before I would drop them to go for a solo. I was not satisfied with just destroying the body. I knew that if I also destroyed their minds before I dropped them, they wouldn't want to chase later after they had slowed and rested for a while. I would stick around, torture or play with them for a while so they would know there was more where that came from, make them want me to not be around any more, and then dump them and ride away. This kept them from coming back later in the race and catching me when my legs may have blown. It greatly increased my success rate for solo's. In a bike race, I wasn't too nice of a person and was even known to be psychologically mean or even cruel. I justified it by saying they weren't exactly trying to be nice to me either. Importantly, I would never injure another racer physically to win a race, but psychologically or tactically I was ruthless.

    Team Racing
    A THINKING GAME
    It is very important to understand that team tactics don't guarantee winning but greatly increase your chances and consistency at winning. Good pro teams can make it almost impossible for an individual rider to win a single day race and impossible to win a stage race.
    We must start with defining offensive and defensive tactics. You must remember that there are usually from ten to over 20 teams in one race. Because of this, two or more teams can be on the offensive at the same time or "share the offensive."
    Basically, an offensive tactic is where a team uses a tactic to take control of the peleton and make as many of the other teams as possible to do what the offensive team wants them to do. They make you ride their race. MAKE EVERY ONE ELSE PULL

    A defensive tactic is where a team uses a tactic to neutralize the offensive efforts of one or more other teams.

    A very common offensive tactic used by pro's is what I call the controlling break. Normally, two or more teams will send strong domestic riders up the road early in the race. This places the other teams between a rock and a hard spot. If they don't chase the break, it stays off and wins the race. If they do chase the break, the riders on the offensive teams sit on the wheels of the defensive teams and rest while the defensive riders work. Teams use this technique to pre-evolve a peleton and set their top riders up for the winning break.

  13. #13
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    A good pro team will use this tactic to strip the domestics from around the team leader they are protecting and force the team leader to work, decreasing his chances of winning. The more riders your team eliminates, the better your team's chances of winning.
    Learn to think of domestics as the offensive and defensive linemen of bicycle racing. Only, they have to play both offense and defense without substitutes, time outs, or huddles.
    A team will often shift back and forth from being on the defensive to the offensive and back again as breaks are caught and new ones go up the road. This is one reason why it is very helpful to think of offensive and defensive tactics so you can quickly adjust.
    It is a very important rule to never chase your own team mate. Never do your competition's work for them. If they want your team mate, they have to do the work to catch him. This requires that you be willing to let your team mate win and think team. If you chase your team mate, the other teams will learn to use this against you. We used to do this very effectively against teams that we knew would chase their own team mates. If you'll do my work for me, I'll let you. If I know that you can't let your team mate go up the road, I'll wait until you break and let you chase him down for me. Then I'll dump your tired legs and win the bike race with my fresh legs. Thank you.
    Examples (THE FUN STUFF)
    As in all other sports, different coaches prefer different strategies in bicycle racing. We have coaches who prefer defensive strategies, offensive strategies, and a blend of both. Three really great examples from the 80's and 90's are Eddy B, Lynn Pettyjon, and Kent Bostic.
    Kent is probably the most successful coach in the US who preferred defensive strategies. His preference was to gain a lead in a stage race and then use his riders to protect that lead. For a single stage race, Kent used his team to keep breaks from getting away until he was ready to go.
    Eddy B is definitely the best ever US based, purely offensively oriented cycling coach. Eddy was a genius at pre-evolving the peleton. In single stage events, he used a two squad system that dominated races for years.
    Eddy would split a team of ten riders in about half. The first squad would go to the front to evolve the peleton while the other squad rested back in the peleton.
    The way the first squad would work was fantastic to watch. They would do what I call relay attacking. One rider would break away to make the other teams chase and, just before he was caught, another team mate would head up the road. This way, they would keep the other teams chasing and not let them rest. The race would be brutal and legs broke quickly.
    Mean while, the other riders positioned near the front to cover any attempts to bridge to the break. If anyone tried to bridge, one of Eddy's riders would jump on his wheel and refuse to help chase his own team mate. The bridging rider either had to set up and go back to the peleton or tow a rider up to his team mate knowing they would promptly work him over with relay attacking. This kind of racing requires a lot of discipline and fitness.
    As soon as the first squad's legs began to tire and a few riders would fall off task, the second squad would step in and finish off already tired legs. When enough legs broke so that the peleton would hesitate to chase, Eddy would send his best up the road. I loved to watch him work.
    Lyn had a slightly different strategy for a single stage race because he used a more horizontal structure for his teams (see team structuring.) Lyn's riders would all assault the front of the peleton with rapid and powerful relay attacking from the start. If, at any time during the race, even with the first break, a rider got into a break that began to gain ground and his rider had a good or better chance of winning the race, everyone on the team domesticated to support that break. The only exceptions to this, were his first year riders who rode as pro-apprentices for a year or more to earn their "wings."
    Because of Lyn's team structure and his racing strategy, we all had to cover everyone of Lyn's riders who sneezed. He regularly hammered packs to putty.
    I believe that Lynn was the best US coach at mixing offensive and defensive strategies. Because of this, he was an excellent coach at stage racing.
    In 1994, while I was getting my MBA at the University of New Mexico, Desi Brown contacted me and asked if I could help him. The UNM team had just taken a brutal beating by the Arizona college teams and his riders refused to accept cycling as a team sport. He asked if I would just give a lecture to the team on team tactics. I gave them a 45 minute lecture covering some of this page and some of the tactics page. I basically taught them to use Lyn's team structure and tactics because I didn't know any of the riders and couldn't effectively structure it any other way.
    They practiced what I taught them for two weeks on training rides and rode their next race against the other New Mexico and Arizona college teams. They took NINE of the first TEN placings (NMSU got ninth.) There wasn't an Arizona rider in the top ten. It was so brutal that I almost felt sorry for the Arizona teams. They spanked them and sent them home crying.
    I gave them a few more lectures and worked with them at a few races that Spring. For the next few years, UNM dominated the New Mexico/Arizona college circuit and won a number of college and USCF national titles. When you finish reading this, you'll know more than I taught them. Have fun.
    I believe that there is one acceptable exception to not chasing your team mate and I will cover this under Purse Strategy.
    The Break
    It is important to know that, if riders from at least two or more of the top five teams in the race are not present in a break, it will almost certainly come back. This is because there will be too many strong teams working against it and not enough strong teams working for it. If a strong team doesn't like the make up of a break, they will work against it even when they have one or more riders in it. If there are two of the top five teams represented in a break and one of them doesn't like the make up of the break, that is at least as bad and possibly worse than only having a rider from one of the top five strong teams in the break. Especially if that one rider is a "marked" rider that the other teams will not let off in a break. Learn to read the team and rider presence in a break to determine the probability of the break staying.
    Once a break is established and the riders are all working together smoothly in the break, better than 90% of the action that will determine the success of the break will take place in the front of the peleton. That is where the really great team battles take place in a race. If a defensive rider is on the front chasing the break and the first rider behind him is an offensive rider with a team mate in the break, as soon as the defensive rider swings out for the next rider to pull through, the offensive rider will slow the pace giving time back to the break. Will another defensive rider come around him to re-establish the pace before the peleton loses time?
    Watch the first ten riders on the front of the peleton to see whether the offensive or defensive teams are controlling the race. This will determine whether the break stays or comes back. NOW RECALL ALL THAT YOU HAVE READ, EXPLAIN IT TO SOMEONE ELSE, AND IF UNCLEAR, RE-READ IT AGAIN. THIS WILL BE THE SECRET TO OUR SUCCESS!!!!
    LEARN TO DRAFT, EFFICIENTLY. LEARN TO RIDE IN A PACE LINE EFFICIENTLY, MASTER THE ESCHLON. THEN WE WILL PUT ALL THIS TOGETHER AND RIP UP THE CIRCUIT!!!

  14. #14
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    excellent read phil, thanks for sharing that. As a guy that has followed the tour for years, it makes a lot of sense and cleared up a few things. I love the one team, split in two attack method.
    More fucked up than a cricket in a hubcap

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    Lances coach said that they did tests with a power meter, and unless you are at a good speed the effect is negligable, but the mental factor is pretty big regardless.

  16. #16
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    good discussion.
    i need to read the articles (today during tour on tv)
    and i would like to see the data/math behind the studies.
    interesting for sure.
    Ski, Bike, Climb.
    Resistence is futile.

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