College costs

[Tippster]

The downside of the German system is that for a trade like cabinet making--one I've read about--you do a long apprenticeship and have to pass an exam before you can go into business. Similar rules for a lot of trades I believe. Obviously it pays off in terms of quality but I think a lot of Americans would not be happy in a system like that.

Happy, as in actually held accountable for the work or job they are doing? Yeah, I can see that.

Basically there is an expectation in Germany that if you hire a Tradesman that they know wtf they are doing and you're going to get what you paid for, rather than our crap-shoot in the US. Those apprenticeships are very well paid and there is an expectation on the master to actually teach, rather than simply use the apprentice as cheap labor. Masters who accept apprentices can be held accountable for shortchanging their education. It's a very old system (ever heard of Guilds?) and used to be the norm even here until we lowered the value of the trades and thus the expectations of both the master and apprentice.

[rod9301]

We're also the only developed nation where the standards of admittance are so pathetically easy. College is "free" in many nations because the academic standards are actually stringent. In Europe, don't quite make the grade? Well, you gotta pay. Want to go the University of Tokyo? Well, you better have been studying your balls off since birth to make it, let alone even get into a proper HIGH SCHOOL around there. Yeah. Crazy hard entrance exams. I think we should do those, then I'm pro "free college." Our SAT exams are a joke if I scored as highly as I did. I consider myself perhaps of average intelligence, and I still scored a 1510. If we had the academic standards of most developed nations universities, we'd see attendance drop by like 90%. Haha.

True, but I don't see anything wrong with just smart people going to college.

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[rod9301]

I can't agree with you more. Really pisses me off how our educational system places such little emphasis or notoriety in technical trades. One thing I admired about what I've seen in Europe, Japan, and other places is the value placed on skilled tradesmen. If you're a highly skilled woodworker in Scandinavia, you're a rock star who makes good money. I've seen plumbers and electricians in Germany who are as professional as any exec and do their jobs with utter precision. In Japan, they have the ideas of monozukuri and kaizen. Something we definitely don't see here. The level of pride you see from trash collectors to burger flippers is unbelievable. We could learn a thing or two, starting with respecting tradesmen more, which by the way, honestly can make more money than many degree-requiring white collar jobs. I say that as a broad generalization, but it's often true. I hope my kids follow their hearts and talents, whether they want to be a doctor or a plumber. Rock on!

True

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[rod9301]

Happy, as in actually held accountable for the work or job they are doing? Yeah, I can see that.

Exactly

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[Bobby Stainless]

well you could dominate the stainless I/Q challenge.
1510/1600, damn that’s much better than mediocre!

Work has to be done mentally.

[KQ]

In 1978, the U.S. federal minimum wage was $2.65 per hour; a student working 40 hours a week for 13 weeks over the summer would earn $1,378, enough to cover the average in-state tuition at a public four-year university, which was $1,369 for the 1978-79 school year, according to National Center for Education Statistics data.

The claim aligns with historical economic conditions when tuition costs were lower relative to wages; PolitiFact rated a similar statement “Mostly True,” noting that while in-state tuition was affordable, out-of-state rates often exceeded a summer’s minimum-wage earnings.

By 2020, college costs had surged, with tuition, fees, and room and board rising 169% since 1980, per Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce, making it nearly impossible for a minimum-wage summer job to cover a year’s tuition today.

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[californiagrown]

College is still a wonderful investment and is fairly straightforward to do in a financially responsible way. Encouraging kids who have no direction, or college fund to go to expensive private/out of state schools to hopefully, maybe find a major without looking at the long term career prospects of that major is a problem. Yes, college is expensive. But it is also still pretty straightforward to make it work out well for yourself financially. College used to be for high achievers, and the upfront cost was well worth it for those motivated high achievers. For the last 15-20years, college has been pushed on everyone including many who view college as a 4 year summer camp instead of primarily as an education and preparation for a career. IMO we should really make JC/CC free, and guide more kids through that route instead of straight to 4 year schools.

[old goat]

College is absurdly overpriced, both based on the actual cost of teaching undergraduates and based on value gained for many students. As far as the cost of teaching--the low cost of community college proves that it doesn't cost that much to lecture, test, and grade students and run a few labs. Harvard profs aren't paid any more than CC instructors. At 4 year schools undergrads are underwriting the whole enterprise--the research, the publishing, the sabbaticals, etc. As far as the second, while in the aggregate college education more than pays for itself, even considering interest on loans, for too many individual students it doesn't. The other factor to consider is room and board--more students would be well served by living with their parents until they graduate, although they would miss out on the binge drinking, hazing, and sexual predation, and all the other glories of college life.

[mcski]

My private college was pricey for a middle class family when I attended in the eighties. Now, at Ninety K per year, I can’t say it is worth the money unless that cash wouldn’t be missed by a well off family. That sucks for an otherwise great experience and school. College Loans and other political bs have fucked that system as well. Even state schools in Ca clock in at thirty K which is a complete and total rip off

[nickwm21]

College is still a wonderful investment and is fairly straightforward to do in a financially responsible way. Encouraging kids who have no direction, or college fund to go to expensive private/out of state schools to hopefully, maybe find a major without looking at the long term career prospects of that major is a problem. Yes, college is expensive. But it is also still pretty straightforward to make it work out well for yourself financially. College used to be for high achievers, and the upfront cost was well worth it for those motivated high achievers. For the last 15-20years, college has been pushed on everyone including many who view college as a 4 year summer camp instead of primarily as an education and preparation for a career. IMO we should really make JC/CC free, and guide more kids through that route instead of straight to 4 year schools.

This. However I hate the word “free” - because it’s not.

The tax payer should fund 2 additional years of education; for those two years students should have the choice between trade school, tech school, credential programs, or college undergrad at the local JC.

This saves the financial lift for the college bound to just two years of subject specific focused learning.

This also provides increased opportunity for those coming from low income communities - which in my opinion would reduce crime and substance abuse.

We need to be promoting skilled trade careers, medical techs, etc… as much if not more than college careers. My generation was told - “if you don’t go to college, you’re fucked”. Which certainly has not been the case.


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[old goat]

I would like to point out that the CC route worked out for Aaron Rogers. (Although it's not clear what actual education he got at Cal.)

[californiagrown]

I would like to point out that the CC route worked out for Aaron Rogers. (Although it's not clear what actual education he got at Cal.)

Its fairly common for late bloomers to develop at a JC/CC and either get drafted or move on to a top D1 program in Baseball. Similarly, there are lots of kids with shit homelives that do crappy in high school, but when they move out are able to get it together and use the local CC/JC to springboard into a good University... IDK if its still the case but in CA a certain GPA at the local CC used to garauntee you admission into a number of top UC schools.

Kids, especially males, have VASTLY different levels of physical and mental maturation in the 16-18yr old age range, and so using that age range to sort them leads to many mistakes in bypassing potential that hasnt yet been realized. Things start evening out quite a bit more at the 18-20yr range and so that 2yrs of CC/JC after high school can be really beneficial.

[old goat]

4 year college is less about education and more about being a bridge to adulthood for those of us in the middle and upper classes who didn't learn adulting in our first 18 years. The kind of lessons a kid that grows up on a farm, for example, doesn't need.

[singlesline]

4 year college is less about education and more about being a bridge to adulthood for those of us in the middle and upper classes who didn't learn adulting in our first 18 years. The kind of lessons a kid that grows up on a farm, for example, doesn't need.

I'm 100% on board with the "college is about improving you as a person/adult, not preparing you for a specific job" train. It is still not for everyone, but it has a lot of value even if you are aimless and don't have some specific career-motivated plan. Actually maybe it has even MORE value if you are aimless...majority of students at my undergrad do NOT end up with the major they thought they were going to do. Most (myself included) find something they like more that they just hadn't even conceptualized as dumb high school kids.

As lifespans get longer and the world gets more complex, finishing 12th grade isn't enough for the long haul and even if you plan to work a job that doesn't need college, you still have to *interact* with the rest of the world. One of my best friends growing up is now an arborist with a completely non-tree/nature related degree...don't think he regrets the choice at all.

In 1978, the U.S. federal minimum wage was $2.65 per hour; a student working 40 hours a week for 13 weeks over the summer would earn $1,378, enough to cover the average in-state tuition at a public four-year university, which was $1,369 for the 1978-79 school year, according to National Center for Education Statistics data.

The claim aligns with historical economic conditions when tuition costs were lower relative to wages; PolitiFact rated a similar statement “Mostly True,” noting that while in-state tuition was affordable, out-of-state rates often exceeded a summer’s minimum-wage earnings.

By 2020, college costs had surged, with tuition, fees, and room and board rising 169% since 1980, per Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce, making it nearly impossible for a minimum-wage summer job to cover a year’s tuition today.

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Yeah, but the dorms are WAY nicer now and we have pristine athletic facilities (even at schools that aren't making any money off sports).

That's totally worth the explosion in college costs!!!

[XXX-er]

My sons were only 14 months apart in age so they jumped thru all the same hoops in the younger years, the younger one did an engineering program entirely on scholarship/ bursary/ Coop so it cost zero $ while the older one who actualy got better marks in primary school did a sponsored high end red seal trade, both smarter than their parents, they were both making the same $ at least in the first 10 yrs one on the keyboard and one on the wrenches both doing well both own RE all the usual stuff

But I think it changes I don't think that ^^ would be same today and i know I could not have got where i am without higher education

retired ski bro told me his Tuition was 1700 a year thru med school which definalty does not happen now