The Nutrition Science thread

[Dantheman]

I believe pervitin was actual methamphetamine (which also worked really well and was partially credited with the success of their blitzkrieg strategy of essentially week long violent meth benders).

Both sides were using shitloads of amphetamines in WW2, but Germany and Japan were big fans of methamphetamine while the Allies preferred amphetamine sulfate. I've heard David Nutt argue that these choices may have actually played a non-trivial role in the outcome of WW2. Because amphetamine sulfate lasts 5-6 hours instead of meth's 10-12 hours, when Allied soldiers got back from missions the drugs had worn off and they could get some sleep, but the Germans and Japanese would still be spun up for hours after which compounded over time into serious chronic sleep loss.

Adderall and the stuff we give our Airforce pilots for long or mission critical flights is just amphetamines (or atleast was still recently in as of a couple years ago, someone correct me if that has changed).

Adderall is composed of equal parts racemic amphetamine and dextroamphetamine. Provigil/modafinil is also extremely popular in those cohorts, but an entirely different class of drug.

[bennymac]

I always wondered/suspected that some high level adventure racers (think 6-12 day long events) we’re using prescription meds (adderal/modafinil) for performance enhancement - would be a huge advantage.

[Trackhead]

I always wondered/suspected that some high level adventure racers (think 6-12 day long events) we’re using prescription meds (adderal/modafinil) for performance enhancement - would be a huge advantage.

I bet many are using a lot more than that............especially in sports/events/activities devoid of drug testing. Think fastest known time enthusiasts, alpinists, ultra-runners, etc, etc.

[bodywhomper]

Like 72 hr routes on mt hunter?

But the weight of the mortar/pestle kit….?!

[Dantheman]

I bet many are using a lot more than that............especially in sports/events/activities devoid of drug testing. Think fastest known time enthusiasts, alpinists, ultra-runners, etc, etc.

It's almost naive to think it's not happening.

[fool]

It's almost naive to think it's not happening.

Would there be a way to tell, behavior wise (non drug testing)? I likely wouldn’t know what to look for or if I’ve sent it. Would be curious if Viva ran across any in his time in the ultra community.


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[bodywhomper]

Rotting teeth

[Trackhead]

Like 72 hr routes on mt hunter?

But the weight of the mortar/pestle kit….?!

Like many of the Euro Uber fast alpinists, runners, etc. Many them earn a living from their media presence which in some ways revolves around speed. I bet ultra running has a drug problem. Many events have the option of post race testing which isn’t hard to pass with an intelligent athlete playing the system well.

I wonder about athletes like Ueli Steck, Kilian Jornet, and other similar who make a living out of moving fast in the mountains.

[bodywhomper]

Yeah. I agree, but I believe it’s been present in some of that high-level mountain athlete community for decades.

[Dantheman]

Would there be a way to tell, behavior wise (non drug testing)? [/url]

Probably not.

Yeah. I agree, but I believe it’s been present in some of that high-level mountain athlete community for decades.

Like I said before, greenies and LSD fueled a lot of OG badassery in the '70s. In Valley Uprising Jim Bridwell is extremely open about all those guys tripping their faces off when they were getting after it. Surely it was and still is common in alpinism, ultras, etc., but given the stigma of doping anyone doing it probably keeps it close to the vest.

[Viva]

Would be curious if Viva ran across any in his time in the ultra community.

No, never.

Although coffee was available at aid stations during night sections of 100 milers.

[californiagrown]

Many events have the option of post race testing which isn’t hard to pass with an intelligent athlete playing the system well.

At least here in the USA, folks might be surprised how many adults have an Rx for adderall/vyvanse/ritalin/modinafil/etc. Its only doping if its not legally prescribed by a doctor.

[bennymac]

and ADHD is diagnosed via a questionnaire filled out by the patient and then looking for improvement after a trial of medication - so it’s not like there is some great barrier to getting prescribed these medications

[muted reborn]

It's almost naive to think it's not happening.

I am naive. But now I get to call FKT-ers meth heads.

I have noticed some of those people can barely sit still waiting for things when not in the mountains. Constant dancing, or constant talking, or constant looking around or just body ticks. it's like hanging out with a squirrel.

[bennymac]

We also shouldn’t label every driven athlete as a prescription drug abuser

[Trackhead]

and ADHD is diagnosed via a questionnaire filled out by the patient and then looking for improvement after a trial of medication - so it’s not like there is some great barrier to getting prescribed these medications

Pill mills do that, I send my patients for neuropsych eval for ADHD diagnosis.

[Trackhead]

At least here in the USA, folks might be surprised how many adults have an Rx for adderall/vyvanse/ritalin/modinafil/etc. Its only doping if its not legally prescribed by a doctor.

Yeah, like the Kenalog injections Bradley Wiggins got before three Tour de France races for his "asthma" yet he had no history of using maintenance inhalers or even albuterol inhalers.

Therapeutic exemptions, as we all know, are often times bullshit.

[XXX-er]

In WWII in the army they were encouraged to smoke which was suposed to keep you awake and cigs were really cheap, kill you slower than a speed habit

[bennymac]

Pill mills do that, I send my patients for neuropsych eval for ADHD diagnosis.

Consider your situation - you think neuropsychology evals are easily obtainable and available everywhere? Have some perspective.

There’s a lot more complexity in the medical system than your anecdotal situation vs everything else is substandard pill mills.

[Cocximus]

At least in Canada, getting an eval for ADD as an adult, is very hard.

[Trackhead]

Consider your situation - you think neuropsychology evals are easily obtainable and available everywhere? Have some perspective.

There’s a lot more complexity in the medical system than your anecdotal situation vs everything else is substandard pill mills.

Considering I work critical access in Alaska and Montana, I'm fully aware of limitations to access in arguably some of the most remote places in the country. It is my personal prescribing preference for kids to get neuropsych eval for the best possible care. I don't/won't prescribe to adults without that either. Many of these evaluations are done via tele-medicine in the places I have worked, so access is generally pretty good. (This is for new patients/new diagnosis, not established patients)

Regardless of our prescribing opinions, there ARE pill mills for ADHD meds just like there were for pain meds back in the day.

[bennymac]

Never denied there are pill mills out there - my point that you missed is that I don’t see it as your particular situation vs everything else is bad medicine.

And the nutrition thread isn’t the right place for a dick measuring contest about who is more north/remote - but I got you beat in that department.

[Trackhead]

Never denied there are pill mills out there - my point that you missed is that I don’t see it as your particular situation vs everything else is bad medicine.

And the nutrition thread isn’t the right place for a dick measuring contest about who is more north/remote - but I got you beat in that department.

These threads are inherently opinionated with responses almost always coming from a place of personal experience. You're right, my initial response was too blunt, my apologies.

In regards to performance enhancing, yeah, no experience. But I would assume ADHD meds might be kinda nice to help get the job done on a protracted alpine route with sketchy conditions and being mentally fried. Although I doubt potential athletes are getting them on the sly from pill mills. I have no idea.

ADHD meds are schedule II for a reason. ADHD is also frequently associated with many other overlapping mental health comorbid conditions. For me personally, I prefer patients to be evaluated by experts in the field before initiating these meds. Others have different comfort levels for prescribing, which is fine.

[bagtagley]

Neuropsych eval is the standard for ADHD meds here, kids and adults.

[Supermoon]

The irony is that the ADHD meds aren’t really performance enhancing in the same way for people who actually have ADHD.