The Nutrition Science thread

[Trackhead]

The genetics of the vast majority of people dont need fixing. Their culture does. Our society is addicted to instant gratification, and IMO that is the cause of 95% of problems.

/The End

[Dantheman]

This last page is insane.

Our population is so fucked up from our culture and diet that they should all be taking a prescription drug to counteract the effects of our culture and diet. JFC.

Well, the perfect, enemy of the good, etc. Should we deny treatment for cancer or CVD because people acquired those diseases through lifestyle factors? If we can reduce the incidence of cancer, CVD, etc. in people who refuse to modify their lifestyle through the use of metformin or other Rx drugs, is that not preferable to treating those diseases after they manifest at much greater expense?

Don't look up how much money is being poured into exercise mimetics.

The genetics of the vast majority of people dont need fixing. Their culture does. Our society is addicted to instant gratification, and IMO that is the cause of 95% of problems.

We've always sought instant gratification. The difference now is that we've built an environment where the things available to gratify us make us sick. Short of a wholesale takeover of the food industry and compulsory physical activity I can't see how we fix it.

Honestly, you'd be surprised sometimes, a fair amount of folks you'd think would be slam dunk DM2 patients don't even have an A1c meeting prediabetes criteria. Then other ethnic groups aren't that overweight and surprise you the other way, shit renal function, shit A1c.

A wide variation in those who present with DM2 doesn't surprise me. But, I've listened to Gerald Schulman talk at length about at least half the population having IR. It's shockingly common in lean 20-somethings who don't exercise.

[oldnew_guy]

Well, the perfect, enemy of the good, etc. Should we deny treatment for cancer or CVD because people acquired those diseases through lifestyle factors? If we can reduce the incidence of cancer, CVD, etc. in people who refuse to modify their lifestyle through the use of metformin or other Rx drugs, is that not preferable to treating those diseases after they manifest at much greater expense?

Not saying we shouldn't, just observing that it's insane that we have to.

[Dantheman]

Not saying we shouldn't, just observing that it's insane that we have to.

Yeah, multi-billion dollar settlements against tobacco companies and Purdue Pharma, but PEP, KO, NESN, etc. are Blue Chip companies with valuations near all-time highs.

[californiagrown]

We've always sought instant gratification. The difference now is that we've built an environment where the things available to gratify us make us sick. Short of a wholesale takeover of the food industry and compulsory physical activity I can't see how we fix it.

You seem healthy, fit and welcoming of delayed gratification. How do you do it, and why wouldnt that work for most others?

[Trackhead]

A wide variation in those who present with DM2 doesn't surprise me. But, I've listened to Gerald Schulman talk at length about at least half the population having IR. It's shockingly common in lean 20-somethings who don't exercise.

In the "skinny fat" sedentary population? That wouldn't be surprising. Is that the demographic?

[J. Barron DeJong]

You seem healthy, fit and welcoming of delayed gratification. How do you do it, and why wouldnt that work for most others?

Well, if it’s something’s not currently working for 90% of the population, I’m not sure just telling them yet again is going to work this time….

ETA: The results of the study being discussed show that those peoples brains are literally ‘wired’ differently than Dan’s (regardless of whether that occurred pre or post obesity) so why would you expect them to just be able to ‘do what Dan’s doing’.

[californiagrown]

Well, if it’s something’s not currently working for 90% of the population, I’m not sure just telling them yet again is going to work this time….

ETA: The results of the study being discussed show that those peoples brains are literally ‘wired’ differently than Dan’s (regardless of whether that occurred pre or post obesity) so why would you expect them to just be able to ‘do what Dan’s doing’.

Are you sure their brains are wired differently than Dan's? Are you sure Dan's brain isnt wired like an obese person but he just has the self discipline to eat/train/live in a healthy, mindful way. If Dan's brain isnt wired like a fatty's, are you sure that it wasn't once and he just rewired it through consistent, disciplined habits?

You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink. Seems like there are a lot of horses out here dying from dehydration next to a river because its not a coca cola.

Life isnt fair. Some people need to work harder than others to achieve similar results. In countless areas of life. Its sad how many people immediatley give up if hard work or discomfort is required to achieve something worthwhile.

[oldnew_guy]

You have to admit there is something going on beyond personal choices when up to 75% of the population is maybe eligible to be on drugs to control their blood sugar that is systemic in nature. Sure, it can maybe be fixed with personal choices, but there is an entire industry spending billions of dollars convincing people to do what they are doing.

We have issues with how we present what is healthy to people, we have food labeling that allows food to be called "healthy" that isn't, etc.

Maybe a civil engineering analogy will help. This is like identifying that a particular location has a high serious/fatal crash rate and shrugging your shoulders and saying "must be the drivers".

------------------

Tangent: have you guys discussed PFAS and it's possible connection to obesity?

[Supermoon]

I think that attitude really devalues the difficulty people have.

If it’s a societal problem then blaming individuals without fixing systems is a fools errand.

If you are working two jobs, and taking care of kids or other family, I imagine worrying about what you’re eating becomes a low priority over just making it work.

If you can’t afford to go to the doctor how do you figure out you’re insulin resistant?

So yeah, everyone “can” do it, but for some it takes a lot more work and many of them just don’t have the bandwidth.

[PeachesNCream]

Coming from grass fed cows and shit is irrelevant when you're talking about purified protein.

Old quote, but why is grass fed irrelevant when you’re talking about purified protein?


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[J. Barron DeJong]

Are you sure their brains are wired differently than Dan's? Are you sure Dan's brain isnt wired like an obese person but he just has the self discipline to eat/train/live in a healthy, mindful way. If Dan's brain isnt wired like a fatty's, are you sure that it wasn't once and he just rewired it through consistent, disciplined habits?

You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink. Seems like there are a lot of horses out here dying from dehydration next to a river because its not a coca cola.

Life isnt fair. Some people need to work harder than others to achieve similar results. In countless areas of life. It’s sad how many people immediatley give up if hard work or discomfort is required to achieve something worthwhile.

’Dan’ here is used as a stand-in for the non-obese people in the study, whose brains were literally wired differently.

So no, I don’t know that Dan’s brain is not in fact wired the same as the obese people in the study.

But saying try harder doesn’t seem like it’s going to work equally well between the obese and non-obese groups, so it seems worth taking that into consideration when deciding the best approach to try and get the obese group more healthy.

Like, I’ve been skinny-to-thin my whole life. Should all the obese people follow my strategy of eat as much as you can until you’re uncomfortable, and that will get you to a healthy weight?

People are different, in all sorts of ways. Health care advice (and all kinds of advice, really) should take that into consideration. Saying ‘try harder’ isn’t a solution. Shit, just the ability to actually ‘try harder’ at things varies between individuals in ways that aren’t just personal choice. It’s like saying ‘be more intelligent’, or ‘be taller’.

[Mofro261]

Old quote, but why is grass fed irrelevant when you’re talking about purified protein?
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Because "purified" means extracted and isolated out of a complex mixture. And because at the level of individual amino acids which are the building blocks for every protein in every organism found in nature- there are no fundamental differences.

(IE the protein is the same whether is comes from grass fed or grain fed beef- but the lipids and fats that are ingested along with the protein will be different).

[Dantheman]

In the "skinny fat" sedentary population? That wouldn't be surprising. Is that the demographic?

I guess the demo for IR is anyone with a BMI approaching or over 30 and/or anyone who doesn't exercise regardless of BMI. In polls 25% of people say they get no exercise at all, and another 25% say they get 0-30 minutes per week, which as far as I'm concerned might as well be zero. So, at least half the population gets no exercise.

[Dantheman]

Old quote, but why is grass fed irrelevant when you’re talking about purified protein?

The benefits of grass-fed meat and dairy, from a health perspective, are in the fatty acid profile. Those fats are removed completely in protein isolate.

Not really
https://www.buzzrx.com/blog/metformi...nd-differences

Different active ingredients
Berberine’s mechanism hasn’t been figured out
There are limits to effectiveness of berberine vs metformin

I’m on metformin for t2d. My GP also recommended berberine, which seemed to help knock off the last stubborn 10 lb to reach bmi=25.

She told me that, to avoid liver damage, not to take berberine for more than 6 mos at a time, and to then take a three month holiday. My A1c after last holiday was 5.5 so I’m not taking it anymore.

YMMV

Yeah I acknowledged that mistake and posted a clarification on the last page.

[TBS]

If you want to understand the brain chemistry of eating, read this

Available on Amazon

[TBS]

The benefits of grass-fed meat and dairy, from a health perspective, are in the fatty acid profile. Those fats are removed completely in protein isolate.



Yeah I acknowledged that mistake and posted a clarification on the last page.

Yup and I deleted my post as soon as I saw your clarification, but you responded before I could :-)

[californiagrown]

Like, I’ve been skinny-to-thin my whole life. Should all the obese people follow my strategy of eat as much as you can until you’re uncomfortable, and that will get you to a healthy weight?

Ding ding ding. your goal was to gain weight, theirs should be to lose it so... the obese people follow my strategy of eat as little as you can until you’re uncomfortable, and that will get you to a healthy weight?

*obviously within reason so some dufus doesnt bring up that crash diets dont work long term, etc.

Hard work is uncomfortable in the short term. Correct.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Ding ding ding. your goal was to gain weight, theirs should be to lose it so... the obese people follow my strategy of eat as little as you can until you’re uncomfortable, and that will get you to a healthy weight?

*obviously within reason so some dufus doesnt bring up that crash diets dont work long term, etc.

Hard work is uncomfortable in the short term. Correct.

Yeah, but I’m still skinny and they’re still fat, so…

And 30+ years isn’t short term.

If you don’t think it’s a problem that needs to be addressed, fine.

I think it’s an issue, and think it’s obvious that what we’re currently doing isn’t working. I hope learnings from studies like these lead to better strategies and better results.

And do you know if your brain is wired like the obese group’s brains or the non-obese group’s brains? Cause if it’s wired like the non-obese, seems like your current strategy would fail if you were to re-wire your brain like the obese group.

[old goat]

I seem to recall that a study like that may be in the works. But, it's hard to replicate the unintentional experiment we've been running where diabetics have been taking metformin for years to decades.



Berberine is the exact same thing in non-rx supplement form.

Besides being a completely different compound as you acknowledged, because it's marketed as a supplement there is no requirement that it be tested for safety or effectiveness and there is no requirement that the manufacturer show that the chemical it purports to be is what's in the bottle. Unlike food and drugs, supplements are not subject to regualtion or approval by the FDA or anyone else.

[Danno]

The Science of What We Eat Is Failing Us https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/19/o...-android-share

[Trackhead]

The Science of What We Eat Is Failing Us https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/19/o...-android-share

Often times those articles are utter garbage, that one was not. It's like the argument for veganism or vegetarians. Do they have better outcomes because of diet, or is it because they also exercise, aren't obese, don't smoke, etc, etc.

The nutrition world is plagued with associations and religious like fervor for one diet or another.

I think moderation is the key to everything, the rest in minutiae and likely largely irrelevant or "statistically insignificant".

[PeachesNCream]

Been having some energy issues and after talking with a friend, he thought I may be too carb dependent. I’m 29, active, eat healthy, and don’t have any medical conditions so shouldn’t be having so much issues with energy. I don’t think carbs are the devil but my energy seems pretty dependent on them which isn’t ideal. For example, I’ll eat a high carb meal, feel good for ~2 hours and then crash. If I eat a high protein or high fat meal I’ll feel sluggish and not get an energy boost. My friend said he had a couple of fit family members, but they loved sugar and were pre-diabetic and the doc was about to put them on meds. They moved to a low carb diet and they returned to normal levels. I don’t think I’m to that level but I do seem to be dependent on carbs for energy so thought it made sense to “train” your body to be less dependent on carbs. Zach bitter broke the 100 mile record with a low carb approach so seems like you can still do plenty of cardio based activities on low carb. My goal isn’t to go low carb every day but maybe Monday and Tuesday just to try to “teach” my body to not be reliant. Anyways, yesterday was the first day. I ate ~20 grams of carbs for the day. Felt so weird, couldn’t concentrate, felt a floaty feeling, woke up in the middle of the night feeling dizzy, low energy, spacey, honestly reminded me of fasting. I’m not looking for suggestions on solving the energy issues, but what do people think about my reaction to going low carb? Is this normal? Does my thinking of teaching your body to burn fats/proteins make sense? Today I’m going to stick with the low carb, but shoot for 50-70 carbs


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[Danno]

google "keto flu" to explain what you are experiencing. Or, if you don't care to google, it sounds completely normal.

As for what you are trying to do, it is what the low carb people call becoming "fat adapted".

[Dantheman]

20 g/day is crazy, crazy low. I'm not surprised at all you felt like crap. Even 50-70 g/day is still very low carb. There's no formal definition of "low carb," but most reasonable sources put the cutoff at somewhere around 20-25% of total daily calories. As an active 29 y.o. I am going to guess you're eating at least 3,000 kcal/day, so "low carb" for you is more like 150-200 g/day.