Opinions on the Ski Visions base flattener???

[AlpiNord]

Structured Disk

[gregorys]

That looks sweet Terry.
(I'm so cheap, I'll probably continue to use my PVC wrap - but I like yours!)

(Somehow I missed some of the questions up-thread.)
To answer about grit and type of sandpaper...
I've been using the 3M Pro grade sandpaper from the Borg (HD). It's waterproof, which helps keep base material from clogging the paper. (Wet the base prior to sand.)
I'd have to go check for sure, but I think I used 100 grit for my course passes. (Light touch, usually)
150-200 for more fine grain pattern/final pass.

I don't know if it helps remove fuzz, but I usually use a metal scraper with a rolled-lip. (Like you'd use for wood-working.) When I hot wax, I also use a metal scraper with a light touch.

Finally, since most of the time my skis are in a locker and I'm kind of lazy, I've been mostly crayon-ing on wax at the beginning of the day. Mostly I've started using the Wintersteiger Moly wax. It is a universal wax and certainly much softer than a hard cold temp wax. But even after a modest crayon, I can still see remnants of the wax at the end of the day. KUU graphite seems good too, and it's a bit harder then than the Wintersteiger stuff. (I'm on Hood, so much wetter and warmer than you further east - which may change things for both structure and wax.)

[AlpiNord]

Good reminder on scraping. I definitely do and recommending either using the SkiVisions planer and (sharp) steel blade or metal scraper after sanding, followed by brushing, a light cleaner and hot scrape to smooth out the micro cuts, any ‘hairies’ and remove loose material.


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[Roxtar]

These discs might be a better option to this.
To me, the biggest problem with the SVBF (as well as my DIY version) is the file. Files are designed to be used perpendicular to the surface. That's why the teeth are set at an angle, to allow the tool to both cut and clean out the shavings.
By using the file 45*-90* from design, the cutting ability of the teeth are compromised at best and just don't cut well.
What we need is a file designed to be used sideways and I haven't been able to find one.

[AlpiNord]

These discs might be a better option to this.
To me, the biggest problem with the SVBF (as well as my DIY version) is the file. Files are designed to be used perpendicular to the surface. That's why the teeth are set at an angle, to allow the tool to both cut and clean out the shavings.
By using the file 45*-90* from design, the cutting ability of the teeth are compromised at best and just don't cut well.
What we need is a file designed to be used sideways and I haven't been able to find one.

You are referring to the High Edge File Flattener and NOT the (High) Base Flattener & Structuring tool, correct? If so the teeth of a conventional file are in the direction of the cut:



In order to source the original crosscut files for the High Edge File Flattener. I'd have to order hundreds ($$$$) and it could take many months to get produced and arrive.



I have a stash of a few I need to hold onto for now, unless you send me $1M.

The closest I've found to those and available are the Crescent Nicholson 8" Rectangular Double/Single Cut Axe File

or the SVST MultiKut File (which I can source).

[AlpiNord]

These discs might be a better option to this.

I'm thinking this could be true if the correct sandpaper is used for the metal edges (aluminum oxide, for one). The round orbital sandpaper (or cut your own) comes in an array of options that could be used vs the silicon carbide. Files can cut metal much faster than hand sanding, however and the combination of the too is worth exploring, IMO.

As a HUDGE BASE OR HIGH EDGE FLATTENING REMINDER, the best you may get is a moderation of the 'problem':

1)Just because a ski base is not perfectly flat does not necessarily mean the performance is massively compromised. Let performance dictate your targets vs targeting a true bar (or aesthetics). You can always cut more, not less. Start out with obvious and minimal steps, test and repeat if needed.
2)Type of ski and snow type come into play, along with other variables.
3)If you focus only on dead flat as your target, it might require the destruction of either the edges, bases or both, depending on the depth or height of the base relative to flat. To file the edges a 2mm deep concave base, the entirety of the edges would be removed. For a 2mm high base, you'd remove the center of the base to achieve flat.
4)The most you might need to cut down is where you get 1cm of flat along the edges for high edge/railed conditions.

The above Renoun Endurance 98s are a blast, run great and ARE NOT perfectly flat. YMMV

[bodywhomper]

With the use of sandpaper, skivisions stone tool, skivisions metal base tool, edge sharpening/bevel setting tools, and waxing stuff, can somebody go through a few maintenance routines based on level of effort? Maybe assuming a good baseline to start with.

[AlpiNord]

With the use of sandpaper, skivisions stone tool, skivisions metal base tool, edge sharpening/bevel setting tools, and waxing stuff, can somebody go through a few maintenance routines based on level of effort? Maybe assuming a good baseline to start with.

For Post 76 above:

1) Deburred the edges
2) Spent maybe 2 minutes sanding tip to tail with light to moderate pressure.
3) Planed the bases tip to tail w/the steel bar with overlapping passes.
4) Brass brushed the bases to get rid of loose debris
5) Cleaned w/light topical citrus cleaner
6) Hot waxed and ironed 3 passes, then hot scraped excess
7) 3 more passes with the iron. (15 minutes or so at this point)
8) Let cool/set for at least 20 minutes
9) Scraped & brushed. 5 minutes
10) Skied packed and creamy powder with excellent glide on the long traverses. Priceless

[gregorys]

For Post 76 above:

1) Deburred the edges
2) Spent maybe 2 minutes sanding tip to tail with light to moderate pressure.
3) Planed the bases tip to tail w/the steel bar with overlapping passes.
4) Brass brushed the bases to get rid of loose debris
5) Cleaned w/light topical citrus cleaner
6) Hot waxed and ironed 3 passes, then hot scraped excess
7) 3 more passes with the iron. (15 minutes or so at this point)
8) Let cool/set for at least 20 minutes
9) Scraped & brushed. 5 minutes
10) Skied packed and creamy powder with excellent glide on the long traverses. Priceless

I'm even more spare. (Translated: Mostly lazy)
New pair of skis routine (new to me, anyway)
--I just use my metal scraper to check flatness across the ski. (I don't know that I've ever gotten a ski that's base high, but I've gotten more than a few that have at least a few spots that are edge high.) Yes, the scraper isn't as good as a true-bar, but the flex of the ski itself is going to make any minor error a non-issue, IMO. Again, I have the scraper in the kit, and it's quick, easy and lazy-dude friendly.
--Hand file with a bastard file (for aggressive removal) of the edges in those sections, perhaps light passes across the whole length. (I'd pick modest base high vs edge-high.)
--Re-check flatness till I've got a good flatness near the edges. It doesn't have to be the entire base, especially as the ski gets wider.
--I use the orange SKS plastic multi-angle base/side bevel tool with diamond stones. (I almost never go beyond the blue medium DMT stone.) Usually 1/1.
--If I want more structure, I'll sand and/or the SV tool+stone a bit. (Or if I've filled ptex hits with my ptex iron/material)
--I never hot-wax and scrape. (Yeah, I'm sure I should.) But I do wet the ski and wipe everything down with a rag - gets most of the grit off/out from sanding/filing/diamond stones.
--Hot wax, modest scrape (after at least a few minutes to cool), green scotch-brite pad to polish.

[bodywhomper]

Thx for responses.

So when would yall use a stone on the base vs use sand paper?

[AlpiNord]

Thx for responses.

So when would yall use a stone on the base vs use sand paper?

Good question. That gets into ‘the art’ of base prep and performance. I like the stone for a rigid structuring control option and the sandpaper for one with a slight flex.

From our Ski Visions Base Flattener Tuning Tips (quoted from Mark):

“Base Structuring Decisions
What is structure on a ski base? It is the process of roughening it to reduce surface tension. If your base is very smooth, surface tension, simply put, is suction from a lack of air between the base and the snow, which slows its glide. Very smooth bases tend to be very slow bases.
As a general rule, you want to use the coarsest structure to minimize surface tension because rougher surfaces have less surface tension. However, it isn’t that simple. New snow crystals are sharp and will dig into a coarse structure causing considerable drag. The rules need to be followed:
1. In new, cold snow the structure needs to be fine. The newer and colder the snow, the finer the structure.
2. As snow gets older, the crystal points start breaking down, so you can then go to a medium structure.
3. As snow goes through multiple freeze and thaw cycles the crystals lose their sharpness and so a coarse structure works best.
A simple rule to follow is to use medium stones in early and mid-winter, medium and coarse structures in late winter and early spring. If the medium structure is too coarse for very cold fresh snow, just de-structure with the steel blade. (See Tuning Routines)”




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[bodywhomper]

Thanks!

I’ve been happy with light relative light touches with the medium stone, especially on my the two skis that get the most vertical and are both flat. If I get a rhythm going in my tuning cycle (not happening this season yet ), I may play with sandpaper.

[AlpiNord]

Thanks!

I’ve been happy with light relative light touches with the medium stone, especially on my the two skis that get the most vertical and are both flat. If I get a rhythm going in my tuning cycle (not happening this season yet ), I may play with sandpaper.

How's the recovery going?

[bodywhomper]

How's the recovery going?

Thx for asking!

Thought I was good to go at start of the season. But learned that (at least) the hamstring is still injured and I was likely reinjuring it during the summer. I reinjured/pulled it my first two days on the hill (doing warm up laps on work days) the knee slips out of joint for a brief instance. Been successfully skiing conservatively the rest of the season so far. Bought a beefier brace to hopefully mitigating the repeated pulling/reinjuring while skiing. Promised wife no touring until it’s demonstrably healed. Appt this week with doc (took 1.5 months for an opening). I also got about 30 minutes of free consultation with one of the hill docs, who’s a sports med doc. He basically said that the hamstring can take a long time to heal. My foot on other leg has been collapsing and painful in ski boots, which I think is related. Sigh

[AlpiNord]

Thx for asking!

Thought I was good to go at start of the season. But learned that (at least) the hamstring is still injured and I was likely reinjuring it during the summer. I reinjured/pulled it my first two days on the hill (doing warm up laps on work days) the knee slips out of joint for a brief instance. Been successfully skiing conservatively the rest of the season so far. Bought a beefier brace to hopefully mitigating the repeated pulling/reinjuring while skiing. Promised wife no touring until it’s demonstrably healed. Appt this week with doc (took 1.5 months for an opening). I also got about 30 minutes of free consultation with one of the hill docs, who’s a sports med doc. He basically said that the hamstring can take a long time to heal. My foot on other leg has been collapsing and painful in ski boots, which I think is related. Sigh

Bummer. I was expecting by now you'd be getting on the other side of that injury. I hope it gets sorted out soon. Good luck!

[bodywhomper]

Thx! I thought I was past it, too!

[bodywhomper]

My foot on other leg has been collapsing and painful in ski boots, which I think is related. Sigh

Bump. I just got the wedges, which hopefully help with this^^^, and the warm wax. Thanks!

[AlpiNord]

Bump. I just got the wedges, which hopefully help with this^^^, and the warm wax. Thanks!

Hope so. Check out this thread on lifts and wedges. I might be able to customize something given proper dimension.

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/....php?p=6755341


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[bodywhomper]

Thanks! I’m hoping my problem is temporary. Some atrophy of the foot muscles. It was not a problem with the boots prior to my knee injury.

[AlpiNord]

We are now fabricating virtually all Ski Vision flattener parts. In so doing we've tweaked & revised the Ski Visions Planer Bodies, Ski File Base Flatteners, High Edge File Base Flattener Bottoms and Base Flattener & Structuring Tool. The bodies are more compact and robust.

The Base Flattener & File Flattener bottoms are now 3d Printed with Carbon infused PETG filament for increased rigidity, strength, with higher temperature and impact resistance like ABS.

[stealurface831]

bump. so i've got both the regular flattener and file attachment but thus far have only used the former for light structure work and planing repairs. been super happy with it in those capacities. now i have a few pairs of skis that haven't seen a full tune in a few seasons. in the past i have taken my quiver in at the beginning of each season and had them ground flat and the edge bevels reset to 90/90. never have trusted a shop to get my bevels right so i do it myself. now i am back east and prohibitively far from a winterseiger or montana. i'd like to knock down my base bevel on at least two pairs and reset them on all. is this something anyone has done with the ski visions? if so, how have you gone about it? fully prepared to put an hour or more into each ski so not worried about how time consuming it may be, just want my shit dialed.

[AlpiNord]

(I assume you are first making base repairs.)

Less is more. If you target 'just enough flat' vs dead flat, it'll save time and effort. At some point I can post something showing how much off you'd need per degree vs taking the edges (and bases) down to dead flat. First assess the base bevels and where you REALLY need to go...or not.

Brush off excess wax. Keep the planing blade sharp and start with that and see how it goes. Since you have a high edge file flattener, a body/panser/radial file or crosscut file is useful too. Coarse sandpaper with our structure disks is also good option.

[stealurface831]

(I assume you are first making base repairs.)

Less is more. If you target 'just enough flat' vs dead flat, it'll save time and effort. At some point I can post something showing how much off you'd need per degree vs taking the edges (and bases) down to dead flat. First assess the base bevels and where you REALLY need to go...or not.

Brush off excess wax. Keep the planing blade sharp and start with that and see how it goes. Since you have a high edge file flattener, a body/panser/radial file or crosscut file is useful too. Coarse sandpaper with our structure disks is also good option.

yes, doing base repairs first. with the two pairs i want to go down on base bevels, i'd be going from around 1(probably more) down to.75. you are saying take the bases and edges down just to the point of being able to get a .75 rather than back to 0 and then setting .75, right?

all pairs are base high to some degree so would you recommend i start with the metal blade in the flattener then switch over to the file once i get to the edges or just ride the metal blade until i have the edges knocked down enough to reset?

[AlpiNord]

yes, doing base repairs first. with the two pairs i want to go down on base bevels, i'd be going from around 1(probably more) down to.75. you are saying take the bases and edges down just to the point of being able to get a .75 rather than back to 0 and then setting .75, right?

all pairs are base high to some degree so would you recommend i start with the metal blade in the flattener then switch over to the file once i get to the edges or just ride the metal blade until i have the edges knocked down enough to reset?

Yes on both.

IE, To change a 2° base bevel to a 1° base bevel, you'd need to remove 0.0335mm of base material:

[bodywhomper]

My older bibby’s were pretty base high. Careful use of a panzer with the high edge tool, followed by the structure stone and then the metal blade, got the bases in good condition. Very noticeable on the snow. I also re-did the edge bevels after the base work.