The Official Salomon S/Lab SHIFT MNC Thread -AMA

[HAB]

I've got my Protests inserted for Shifts for binding swappage reasons, but that also made it easy to mess around with shims. I'm also a weenie who can't stand a ton of binding ramp.

I'm happy skiing them without a shim in alpine boots, and somewhat surprisingly, also in my WTR soled XTD 130s. I like them much better with a 1/4" shim if I'm going to be skiing them with fully rockered touring soles.

[Spyderjon]

I've got my Protests inserted for Shifts for binding swappage reasons, but that also made it easy to mess around with shims. I'm also a weenie who can't stand a ton of binding ramp.

I'm happy skiing them without a shim in ISO 9523 soles, and somewhat surprisingly, also in my WTR soled XTD 130s. I like them much better with a 1/4" shim if I'm going to be skiing them in my alpine boots.

That's weird as the Shift is at its lowest amount of delta when adjusted for an alpine boot.

[HAB]

That's weird as the Shift is at its lowest amount of delta when adjusted for an alpine boot.

I derped and wrote that exactly backwards. JFC. Editing now.

[galibier_numero_un]

That's weird as the Shift is at its lowest amount of delta when adjusted for an alpine boot.

I'm a bit puzzled by all of these ramp delta comments.

If we can't x-ray the boot to see where the ball of the foot rests, aren't we making an invalid assumption?

If (for example) the plane of the foot bed is referencend to the upper lip of the toe extension (as I suspect), then a binding that adjusts like the Shift or the Aaatacks would keep the ramp delta constant access boot types.

... Thom

[HAB]

Fair point that it's hard to know exactly what's going on in the boot re: height of the ball of the foot relative to the boot sole, and the boot board ramp angle. And I'm with you that that's what matters.

I'm just describing my subjective experience with them in a bunch of different boots (Mach 1 130 LVs, Hawx XTD 130s, and Freedom RSs). Which may or may not extrapolate well to anybody else, but they are how I've felt in them (now that I've had enough coffee to write it properly).

[galibier_numero_un]

Fair point that it's hard to know exactly what's going on in the boot re: height of the ball of the foot relative to the boot sole, and the boot board ramp angle. And I'm with you that that's what matters.

I'm just describing my subjective experience with them in a bunch of different boots (Mach 1 130 LVs, Hawx XTD 130s, and Freedom RSs). Which may or may not extrapolate well to anybody else, but they are how I've felt in them (now that I've had enough coffee to write it properly).

Yup, in the absence of hard data, that's what I'm arguing for as well - subjective experience, hopefully not influenced by preconceptions.

I was hoping to balance any tendencies toward confirmation bias (futile as that might be): my AFD is lower, therefore, I must have a lower ramp angle, ergo, I can feel it.

... Thom

[waxoff]

If (for example) the plane of the foot bed is referencend to the upper lip of the toe extension (as I suspect),
... Thom

But they're not. Standing on the floor, I put one foot in in the RX the other in the Cosmos, ramp sensation is pretty similar left to right (delta now zero on both boots). In this position the Cosmos toe lug is about a cm higher than the RX's, whereas the heel lug is but a couple of mm higher on the Cosmos. What do you think happens when you put both boots in the same type of binding with a fixed toe piece height? Correct, the Cosmos will end up in a toe down position. Hence the ramp delta comments.

I've got my Protests inserted for Shifts for binding swappage reasons, but that also made it easy to mess around with shims. I'm also a weenie who can't stand a ton of binding ramp.

I'm happy skiing them without a shim in alpine boots, and somewhat surprisingly, also in my WTR soled XTD 130s. I like them much better with a 1/4" shim if I'm going to be skiing them with fully rockered touring soles.

Thanks for your input. Inserts for Shifts make a lot of sense in this regards, good idea! Then, installing/removing shims only requires two different lengths sets of machine screws, so it would still allow to run the Shifts with alpine boots for resort only days, or for whatever purpose.

[galibier_numero_un]

But they're not. Standing on the floor, I put one foot in in the RX the other in the Cosmos, ramp sensation is pretty similar left to right (delta now zero on both boots). In this position the Cosmos toe lug is about a cm higher than the RX's, whereas the heel lug is but a couple of mm higher on the Cosmos. What do you think happens when you put both boots in the same type of binding with a fixed toe piece height? Correct, the Cosmos will end up in a toe down position. Hence the ramp delta comments

That makes sense. Standing on a hard floor is a helpful way of sussing this out.

... Thom

[jdadour]

Cross posting a question from the "Get down with Down" thread:

My plans for a pair of Down CD104 are to set them up for a multi role capacity as a Swiss Army knife type travel/adventure/alpine/tour skis primarily for resorts and short hops skinning or hiking. Current plan is to install inserts for both Wardens and tech and will be driven by mildly beefed up Cosmos 3 boots. I have skied these boots in Wardens on alpine skis and I really like how they sit in those binders ramp-wise. Plus, should I want to use the RX's in them, I do not have to alter the delta. Win win.

On paper, Shifts would be ideal for this role, and I've been contemplating Shifts for a setup like this for a long time, but what's holding me back is the delta increase with iso 9523 soles in alpine mode in those, as to my understanding, the afd has to be lowered quite a bit to accomondate those soles. Anybody delta sensitive out there who has used iso 9523 in shifts that care to comment?

I could of course shim the toes, but then ramp/delta would be off should I opt for skiing them in alpine boots... WWMD?

Forget about ramp delta, just think about ramp angle for the Shift.

In the Shift, the ramp angle doesn't change when you change the height of the AFD. The toe lug stays in the same position in the toe piece regardless of sole thickness. The AFD goes up and down, not the whole toe piece. If the whole toe piece moved then your ramp angle would change.

Your boots may have different ramps though, which others have mentioned, which is a whole different conversation.

[turnfarmer]

That makes sense. Standing on a hard floor is a helpful way of sussing this out.

... Thom

This is a great way to start.
Find some 1mm shims and measure your current binding delta. Duplicate the delta and then experiment with 1mm shims both at the toe and heel to vary the delta.
You're only measuring static balance, not dynamic on a downhill slope.

Still very helpful.

[jdadour]

But they're not. Standing on the floor, I put one foot in in the RX the other in the Cosmos, ramp sensation is pretty similar left to right (delta now zero on both boots). In this position the Cosmos toe lug is about a cm higher than the RX's, whereas the heel lug is but a couple of mm higher on the Cosmos. What do you think happens when you put both boots in the same type of binding with a fixed toe piece height? Correct, the Cosmos will end up in a toe down position. Hence the ramp delta comments.



Thanks for your input. Inserts for Shifts make a lot of sense in this regards, good idea! Then, installing/removing shims only requires two different lengths sets of machine screws, so it would still allow to run the Shifts with alpine boots for resort only days, or for whatever purpose.

Yes, then I think your issue here boils down to the difference in ramp delta of the boots, regardless of binding ramp.

[waxoff]

Forget about ramp delta, just think about ramp angle for the Shift.

In the Shift, the ramp angle doesn't change when you change the height of the AFD.

No, but it will vary depending on what type of boot you use in the Shift because of where on the boot the lugs are in relation to the boot board. As previously stated, with the Cosmos' iso 9523 soles in Wardens, deltas and resulting total ramp is what I'm after. In order to reach that ramp in the Shifts, the toes have to be shimmed. That is not the case with alpine soles in Shifts.

[Pacman922]

Anyone know where to order some replacement AFD screws, mine are just about stripped from trying to tighten it with random multitools etc.

[AZskibum]

I have a dumb question. I mounted my shifts, popped my boot in, but i'm not sure hot to change the forward pressure. When I screw the bolt in and out the little silver rectangle stays in the same spot, or at least appears to.

[HAB]

I have a dumb question. I mounted my shifts, popped my boot in, but i'm not sure hot to change the forward pressure. When I screw the bolt in and out the little silver rectangle stays in the same spot, or at least appears to.

Got a picture?

You do kind of need to get into the right ballpark before that indicator does anything. If you have it super loose it won't register.

[doebedoe]

Okay -- I don't want to read 107 pages....is there anything to be particularly careful about when mounting Shifts? Tips/tricks? Posts I should read.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

Find LeeLau's article on Newschoolers about the Shift + Tecton

[doebedoe]

Read that -- covers lots of good adjustment issues (AFD/Forward pressure) but not much about anything in the mounting process itself.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

Oh gotcha. I've mounted 5 pair w/out any issue or any real prep. They're super easy. The trick is really in AFD/FP)

[doebedoe]

Oh gotcha. I've mounted 5 pair w/out any issue or any real prep. They're super easy. The trick is really in AFD/FP)

Good to hear. Just wanted to confirm since I really hate fucking up friend's stuff.

[galibier_numero_un]

I think it was @lucknau who fiddled with the location of the front screw on the toe, and he put out a template. That screw location seems to have been a point of discussion.

... Thom

[Spyderjon]

Anyone know where to order some replacement AFD screws, mine are just about stripped from trying to tighten it with random multitools etc.

I presume you mean the height adjustment screw in the side of the AFD? If so, then the screw is not available as a spare and you'll need to order a pair of complete replacement AFD's. Amer have them in stock and any Sallie/Atomic dealer can order them. The part number is L407510001.

[lucknau]

Good to hear. Just wanted to confirm since I really hate fucking up friend's stuff.

I think it was @lucknau who fiddled with the location of the front screw on the toe, and he put out a template. That screw location seems to have been a point of discussion.

... Thom

Template at post #1251 in the paper templates thread

Button placement in this revision matches the jig. I’ve mounted two different ways (button seated all the way into the toe slot, vs. back a little, per the jig) and had no discernible issues after two seasons.

Just an aside, I remounted a pair this year after a season’s use and noticed that the button does experience wear. I think it’ll last a few years or more, but it’s something to be aware of.

[doebedoe]

Thanks! This is why you ask before you drill.

[gregL]

Okay -- I don't want to read 107 pages....is there anything to be particularly careful about when mounting Shifts? Tips/tricks? Posts I should read.

When you slide the toepiece on, make sure the front screw is in the slot; it's easy to wedge the binding over the screw so the toe is off the topsheet of the ski. Look from the side to make sure it's flush with the ski deck.