WASATCH STOKE, CONDITIONS, OBSERVATIONS AND ASSORTED DRIVAL 17-18

[Skidog]

^That's my other question. Why the hell should I have to pay a toll on a random Tuesday morning when it hasn't snowed in a week and the canyon is empty? Do people have to pay a toll to drive down I15 at 8 AM to encourage them to carpool?

They'd have to structure the toll. I can't imagine anyone would pay a toll to head up in summer when the road has zero traffic. Bet snowbird and Alta would put up a stink. I'd imagine their tax dollars speak pretty loudly. Maybe just a toll during the ski season. As for how the could enforce? Just like any other state/country that has electronic tolls. Either you have a reader pass or they snap license plate pics. All it takes is an electronic "toll booth" basically passing under a stop light type structure with cams/readers on it. I use a toll road in Canada with a rental car. No reader, just get the toll charges a couple weeks later when the licence plate is processed. You don't even have to slow down. Just drive under.

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[brutah]

They'd have to structure the toll. I can't imagine anyone would pay a toll to head up in summer when the road has zero traffic.

have you been up little cottonwood in the summer? there's traffic and parking issues.

My issue with this most recent offering from the state legislature is that it basically completely ignores the mountain accord, which it partially funded. Why do you spend all this money on research and collaboration just to piss it away. A toll could be a viable solution, or better yet, something like millcreek and AF canyon, but tolling alone does nothing. It does seem like it will have some federal issues since the state is basically trying to collect fees to use federal lands.

They need to build more parking lots near the canyon mouths, run more buses, add more bus stops in the canyon, and add a directional (runs up in the morning, down in the afternoon) car pool/bus lane, along with toll booths. that's what I'd like to see.

Skiing was real good yesterday afternoon. I bet its better this morning

[Skidog]

have you been up little cottonwood in the summer? there's traffic and parking issues.

My issue with this most recent offering from the state legislature is that it basically completely ignores the mountain accord, which it partially funded. Why do you spend all this money on research and collaboration just to piss it away. A toll could be a viable solution, or better yet, something like millcreek and AF canyon, but tolling alone does nothing. It does seem like it will have some federal issues since the state is basically trying to collect fees to use federal lands.

They need to build more parking lots near the canyon mouths, run more buses, add more bus stops in the canyon, and add a directional (runs up in the morning, down in the afternoon) car pool/bus lane, along with toll booths. that's what I'd like to see.

Skiing was real good yesterday afternoon. I bet its better this morning

many times...none of the alta lots are ever full in summer. Sure end of the road where the summer road starts can be busy, but i'd say the only real parking problem, if you'd call it a problem (compared to winter) is Snowbird.

[jtran10]

have you been up little cottonwood in the summer? there's traffic and parking issues.

skidog doesn't even go up lcc in the winter

[Skidog]

skidog doesn't even go up lcc in the winter

LOL...not yet this one anyway...very atypical as you well know

id hardly call the summer time a parking "problem" though.

[brutah]

many times...none of the alta lots are ever full in summer. Sure end of the road where the summer road starts can be busy, but i'd say the only real parking problem, if you'd call it a problem (compared to winter) is Snowbird.

I worked sporadically in both canyons this summer. There's definitely issues in the cottonwoods with parking in the summer. LCC: albion basin lots, snowbird lots, white pine TH, lisa falls TH. All are filled most summer days. BCC: lots around storm mountain, S-curve, reynolds flats, brighton lots. All are filled most summer days.

skidog doesn't even go up lcc in the winter

touche

[Skidog]

I worked sporadically in both canyons this summer. There's definitely issues in the cottonwoods with parking in the summer. LCC: albion basin lots, snowbird lots, white pine TH, lisa falls TH. All are filled most summer days. BCC: lots around storm mountain, S-curve, reynolds flats, brighton lots. All are filled most summer days.



touche

Same issues in AF canyon in summer and they have a toll, so......

[brutah]

Same issues in AF canyon in summer and they have a toll, so......

exactly, I said above that a toll alone will do nothing.

[Skidog]

exactly, I said above that a toll alone will do nothing.

yeah i tend to agree...i liked the idea of up and down times....that makes some sense for sure. might make it tough for people to make flights though...The full timers up there might be pissed about that though no? On closure days why would the want to wait longer (if they had to go down) just so the skiers can get up.. ?

Somehow increasing viable, reliable, public transport is the real answer, but that will likely never happen. there isnt really a good answer for any of this, except making a bigger road, and cover it in the most avie prone areas like un yurp (logistics nightmare) or a train (very unlikely). Has the idea of a long ass gondola ever been brought up? I know that would ruin the landscape (gondola cars could be green or whatever to blend in) but seems way more feasible than a train, since there are like no trains made that can make that grade easily.

[Sirshredalot]

yeah i tend to agree...i liked the idea of up and down times....that makes some sense for sure. might make it tough for people to make flights though...The full timers up there might be pissed about that though no? On closure days why would the want to wait longer (if they had to go down) just so the skiers can get up.. ?

Somehow increasing viable, reliable, public transport is the real answer, but that will likely never happen. there isnt really a good answer for any of this, except making a bigger road, and cover it in the most avie prone areas like un yurp (logistics nightmare) or a train (very unlikely). Has the idea of a long ass gondola ever been brought up? I know that would ruin the landscape (gondola cars could be green or whatever to blend in) but seems way more feasible than a train, since there are like no trains made that can make that grade easily.

I don't know if anyone has seriously proposed a gondola to run all that way. Obviously, that would have it's own, unique set of drawbacks.

[Skidog]

I don't know if anyone has seriously proposed a gondola to run all that way. Obviously, that would have it's own, unique set of drawbacks.

yeah it would, but it would also appear that it would have much less impact than a train or possibly even less than attempting to expand the road, which seems impossible, but i surely am not an enginerd.

[F#*k you cat]

Cog railroads are all over Europe. The one to Wengen and later to the Eiger has way more challenges than LCC. For Christ sake there is a 90 degree turn through a tunnel in the mountain. AVY barriers up to the Eiger then on to the Jungfrau. The cog is the only way up / down for a world cup race there. If the mountain Accord / local mayor's/ UTA / UDOT / the governor's office was actually serious about fixing traffic they would actually work towards a solution. If tolls generate income for a long term solution. I am fine paying them. However if tolls are just a response to some state senator's gripe on traffic. Then he can fuck off.

mobile update

[Skidog]

Cog railroads are all over Europe. The one to Wengen and later to the Eiger has way more challenges than LCC. For Christ sake there is a 90 degree turn through a tunnel in the mountain. AVY barriers up to the Eiger then on to the Jungfrau. The cog is the only way up / down for a world cup race there. If the mountain Accord / local mayor's/ UTA / UDOT / the governor's office was actually serious about fixing traffic they would actually work towards a solution. If tolls generate income for a long term solution. I am fine paying them. However if tolls are just a response to some state senator's gripe on traffic. Then he can fuck off.

mobile update

you know how fucking slow a cog rail is?

[Dantheman]

On big days when the parking lot at Alta is full the mountain is at capacity. Can't we accept that and turn people away? Why are ski areas not sold out? The Jazz are sold out, Zion NP turns people away, I couldn't get a ticket to Star Wars opening day but we send too many people up LCC.

The resorts should have capacity limits, but I don't know how you'd equitably and effectively enforce that.

I still think all this hand wringing for a few days over the course of a 150 day season is overkill.

It is, though it's more like every weekend day and every holiday from Dec. 1 to Apr. 1. Summers are becoming a problem, too. Neither season is going to get better.

^That's my other question. Why the hell should I have to pay a toll on a random Tuesday morning when it hasn't snowed in a week and the canyon is empty?

Because you're a heathen recreationalist who deserves to be milked for every possible dollar

As for how the could enforce? Just like any other state/country that has electronic tolls. Either you have a reader pass or they snap license plate pics. All it takes is an electronic "toll booth" basically passing under a stop light type structure with cams/readers on it.

I meant how you would give carpoolers a discount or waived fee. Otherwise, yes, the logistics of electronic tolling are pretty simple.

They need to build more parking lots near the canyon mouths, run more buses, add more bus stops in the canyon, and add a directional (runs up in the morning, down in the afternoon) car pool/bus lane, along with toll booths. that's what I'd like to see.

Geography and existing development makes adding parking and expanding the road a lot easier said than done.

id hardly call the summer time a parking "problem" though.

I would. It's different than winter with the bigger problems being at places like White Pine, S-Curves, Guardsmans, etc. but if anything that makes it an even harder problem to fix.

there isnt really a good answer for any of this

This is the sad reality.

[Skidog]

Cog railroads are all over Europe. The one to Wengen and later to the Eiger has way more challenges than LCC. For Christ sake there is a 90 degree turn through a tunnel in the mountain. AVY barriers up to the Eiger then on to the Jungfrau. The cog is the only way up / down for a world cup race there. If the mountain Accord / local mayor's/ UTA / UDOT / the governor's office was actually serious about fixing traffic they would actually work towards a solution. If tolls generate income for a long term solution. I am fine paying them. However if tolls are just a response to some state senator's gripe on traffic. Then he can fuck off.

mobile update

for example...mt washington cog rail..

The train ascends the mountain at 2.8 miles per hour (4.5 km/h) and descends at 4.6 mph (7.4 km/h). It takes approximately 65 minutes to ascend and 40 minutes to descend, although the diesel engine can go up in as little as 37 minutes. thats 3 miles long.....LCC is 8 from the sign... do that math...what 2 hours to ascend? maybe longer? not even closely feasible.

[boardtodeath]

You guys need to look at modern cog-compatible light rail like they use in switzerland. Not oldass cog specific scenic railways like pike's peak or mt washington.

It's a normal light rail train with added cog capability.

[Skidog]

You guys need to look at modern cog-compatible light rail like they use in switzerland. Not oldass cog specific scenic railways like pike's peak or mt washington.

whats the max grade of any of those in switzerland? Honest question..just wondering as I thought grade was part of the issue in LCC. I know there are larger grade cogs, but they are still slow and VERY short (sub 3 miles).

Edit: pikes peak appears to be of like distance to LCC and takes 3 hours. Likely not "modern" but im having trouble finding what you're referring to.

[S_jenks]

I like the train idea in theory, but from what little experience I've had driving the LCC it seems like a gondola would be better.

Towers can be airlifted in, and while pouring the concrete foundations in would be a pain it wouldn't have nearly the same challenges as blasting tunnels up the sides of the canyon. Yeah a train could be done, but the permit process would be hell and getting the land appropriated for it would take forever and would face an arguably larger opposition.

Once you agreed on the tower line and acquired the land for base area parking, you could arguably run a gondola all the way up the base areas of Alta/Snowbird. It could cross the roads with little issue, and a parking garage with constant turning of the lifts would allow for quick transport up/down the canyon. Downside would of course be more skiers, but it's not the worst compromise in the world.

Sunshine and Silver Mtn already run such a setup, and I think it can work quite well with proper planning.

[boardtodeath]

whats the max grade of any of those in switzerland? Honest question..just wondering as I thought grade was part of the issue in LCC. I know there are larger grade cogs, but they are still slow and VERY short (sub 3 miles).

Edit: pikes peak appears to be of like distance to LCC and takes 3 hours. Likely not "modern" but im having trouble finding what you're referring to.

Check out the PDFs at the bottom of this page: http://www.stadlerrail.com/en/produc...Zahnradbahnen/

The first PDF lists 25% grade and a max speed of 30 or 40 km/h on cog uphill, 15 or 20 km/h downhill on cog and 70 km/h on adhesion (normal train mode without cog). ~19km of cog section on that one.

Suffice to say the train technology has existed for a long time, hell Stadler is BUILDING A TRAIN FACTORY IN CLEARFIELD, and the "trains wont work" arguments basically come from people that don't want to put the money in. Build a train and it'll be useful for a century or more with upkeep, or keep throwing smaller sums of money at building bigger roads for fossil fueled vehicles to drive up. I know what my choice is but for some reason these idiots want more rubber tired vehicles interfacing with icy ass roads instead of modern adhesion/rack rail units running in snowsheds (which would actually make sense).

A gondola a la silver mountain would work too but I have to imagine adhesion/rack trainsets that can run on the existing light rail lines would be vastly superior as there would be no need to transfer passengers to a gondola and you could go through the still-existing (would need to be widened but the hard work is done) tunnels from LCC to BCC and then PC.

[Dantheman]

the "trains wont work" arguments basically come from people that don't want to put the money in.

This is true, but I can certainly understand the opposition when 75% of the State's population doesn't ski at all let alone ski LCC. Billions of dollars is a lot of public money to throw at a problem that affects such a small amount of people. Anyone know what UDOT spends on avy control and road maintenance each year keeping 210 open? Even if you completely abandoned the road it seems like it would take a really long time to break even on the cost of the train.

[boardtodeath]

If you run the train through the tunnels to BCC and then PC, suddenly you've got easy (and smooth!) rail transit directly from the airport to Park City... perfect for sundance, for example. Transit that can run during I-80 closures at that.

It would take a longass time to break even on the train, but it would happen eventually and you'd have a secondary method up the canyons in the case of a landslide taking out 210, for example. It boils down to, do you want to invest the money now so that in 40 years people can still get up there easily? Or do you want to have to be asking this same question anew every decade or so?

[jtran10]

In 40 years nobody is going to be skiing in Utah

[jtran10]

I'm all for long-term transit solutions, regardless of snowfall. People will still be recreating up there regardless.

I wrote a research paper in college on this same exact topic 10 years ago, and IIRC the solution was a combination of more down-canyon parking, better public transit up, and more snow bridges/avy shelters to mitigate. Of course my paper didn't really get into the issues surrounding figuring out parking in the valley, but in a perfect world...

[Skidog]

This is true, but I can certainly understand the opposition when 75% of the State's population doesn't ski at all let alone ski LCC. Billions of dollars is a lot of public money to throw at a problem that affects such a small amount of people. Anyone know what UDOT spends on avy control and road maintenance each year keeping 210 open? Even if you completely abandoned the road it seems like it would take a really long time to break even on the cost of the train.

^^^^this 100%.....

[Skidog]

I'm all for long-term transit solutions, regardless of snowfall. People will still be recreating up there regardless.

I wrote a research paper in college on this same exact topic 10 years ago, and IIRC the solution was a combination of more down-canyon parking, better public transit up, and more snow bridges/avy shelters to mitigate. Of course my paper didn't really get into the issues surrounding figuring out parking in the valley, but in a perfect world...

Eminent domain that little house at the merge on 210 and push that little trailhead back a bit and you increase some parking. It would really depend on where a train or gondola terminated...

I like the gondola idea only becuase compared to a train it would be cheaper and could be implemented rather quickly in comparison. Perfect? nope, but it sure would ease congestion. Would be much less infrastructure too. I think longest span between towers now is somewhere around 2miles. This makes possibly as low as 4 towers, but id bet more like 8 or 9 (still far less impact than a train track). This would still likely piss off the Save our canyons folks due to how it effects the "view". I dont really know how fast gondolas can run, but id think maybe 30-40min trip up, sure beats any pow day drives up...on a good day from my house in Sandy its about 20 min. Its 14.5miles to Wildcat lot for me.