Adrift in a gulf of malcontent

**riser4** · 10-03-2017, 06:33 AM

[With no apologies to Storm King or anyone else for the thread title. However, the Adrift lyrics are powerful poetry.]

This thread has been intentionally opened in the Padded Room. If it goes sideways, well, that's on other folks. And of course there's my sincere, no, a better word is fanatical, belief that all topics belong in one forum. That of course is not working so well for me.

Why can we not as human beings have rational conversations about serious topics? Oh, right, the internet. Or is it? Douchebaggery has been around most likely since we first were able to have cognitive thoughts. And so it brings me to why you can all ignore me today. Guns.

Fanatical opinions about guns, both for and against, prevents any kind of meaningful debate and concession. Yes. Concession. From all parties. Address your fears and move on.

Right, but to do that, we need to take a leap of faith. And to do that, we need to feel safe. However, society doesn't really feel that safe does it? Many norms are disintegrating. So this is a much bigger issue. The topic of guns is merely a symptom. But maybe it can provide the cure, in an oblique way. We need to roll up our sleeves and do the heavy lifting. We need to find common ground and unity. Those who seek to divide us must be shown to be smaller than all of us.

**Buster Highmen** · 10-03-2017, 07:04 AM

Weaponize compassion and empathy. It's what we lack.

**Jong Lafitte** · 10-03-2017, 07:15 AM

I have actually thought a lot about this lately. I heard this interesting piece on NPR, they were interviewing this guy about this book he wrote. I think the guy was a CU prof or grad student, sorry, of course I can't remember the book or the guy. Anyway, the discussion centered around human knowledge.

One of the author's propositions starts with the assertion that the individual's capacity for knowledge and learning is dwarfed by the collective's capacity for knowledge and learning (a sort of [extension of the] economic principle of specialization). He continues with this idea of "can you explain how a toilet works?" Like, how does it actually work, beyond, 'water push down poo.' He uses this to demonstrate that most people don't actually know, but they also don't just accept that they don't know, they purport to know and then offer an explanation. (kind of a bad example, I know, but it worked on enough 'smart' people to prove the point). I also like it because its saying "you don't know shit, literally"

Its meant to demonstrate that most things that people take an opinion on, or think that they understand, they don't know shit about because its waaay more complex than is understood. This extends to political topics, the major issues we face today. In a democracy, we all have the right to have a stance on an issue and we're forced to take a stance, even without all of the knowledge and that's OK because we can rely upon the collective knowledge to some extent. This has always been a problem but technology seems to be making it worse and not better.

Technology, social media and the sound-bite driven, shallow media exacerbate the problem by giving people a false sense of deeper understanding of the issue. Then, Damian Sanderses, and most all people really, have a poor understanding of the complexities involved but cannot acknowledge what they don't know about it (which, in most cases, is almost everything). Everybody chooses a side and the battle cries get louder, the wedge gets driven deeper.

When it comes to addressing major issues, this hurts our ability to come together because each person thinks that they know what will work. You've heard this shit before, like customers telling employees how to do their job. A common saying around my extended family is/was "what 'they' (politicians, gubment, doctors, AC tech, whoever) oughtta do is...." The solution offered would rarely (read: never) be the one that would actually work in the complex environment of, well, reality.

So I guess what I'm saying is that a lot of it is stupid people, all of us, thinking that they are smart. I don't exclude myself from this, nor is the irony of this post lost on me. Social media and shit media are making it worse. The loss of journalistic integrity and people's inability to decipher fake news from real news (and to, in fact, swap the two if it fits their narrative) hurts this more. Did you see unkie Joe's FB post, he sure has a point about such and such!

Remember the '90's with the emails that were like "if you disagree, just delete this, but if you agree, send it to 100000000 people you know." I never wanted to choke a member of my extended family so bad as when I would get that shit.

The solution? I dunno. Read the book.

Kind of fits in with this idea of dropping identity politics and working with those that you despise to achieve a common goal that most 'sides' can agree upon, or at least accept as a compromise. This could become easier if people are willing to educate themselves, listen to actual experts (including being able to identify actual experts), recognize what they don't know and work with people that they despise.

There is also, of course, greed and deception (ordinarily feeding off of the gullible and vulnerable) coming into play, making it yet worse.

We CAN work together!!!! I think it starts with working with people on all sides of an issue and trying to UNDERSTAND the issue. We must compromise, which also seems to be getting harder, people just getting more dug in. Fucking FB fucktardery is not making this easier.

Well, sorry for the rant, I don't think that goes anywhere, but posting it anyway.

**Bobby Stainless** · 10-03-2017, 07:16 AM

The Fear is being sold in a huge way.

I for one do not think we are going to Hell in a bucket.

We are on track to have 1000 less violent gun deaths this year over 2016. Hopefully that holds true.

**Alaskan Rover** · 10-03-2017, 07:19 AM

I think the problem is two-fold. We humans have an insatiable need to classify. Conservative, liberal, environmentalist, teabagger, redneck, hipster, flamer, etc. And then we tend to think those groups we have thus classified are in total opposition to EVERY value we hold dear.

The gap that we presuppose between "us" and "them" is a largely an artificial one. A fraud. If we tried to REALLY communicate with those that we think are in opposition to us, we might be surprised how similar they are to us. The problem is no one wants to be the one to take that first step.

It's kinda like acids and bases. You put an acid and a base together and it becomes a neutralization reaction, and no one wants to become a salt.

We need a buffer.

**jackstraw** · 10-03-2017, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by Beer Drinker

The Fear is being sold in a huge way.

Shit is being sold in the face of fear. It's all about money and profits. That is the bottom line.

Pawns

**FLS** · 10-03-2017, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Alaskan Rover

We need a buffer.

I wonder if income "equality" would do anything.

**skifishbum** · 10-03-2017, 07:43 AM

**Kirby** · 10-03-2017, 07:56 AM

**I've seen black diamonds!** · 10-03-2017, 08:02 AM

^^^^^^^This.

**hatchgreenchile** · 10-03-2017, 08:10 AM

I struggle with how the internet has changed how we conversed with others.

The digital lynch mob is a very real thing. Scary how “stories” can just explode with millions of keyboard warriors becoming the de facto experts on all matters.

It’s a mess, and I don’t know how you slow it down. Reasonable political discussion on the web? Maybe in La La Land

KQ · 10-03-2017, 08:20 AM

we don't know what we don't know..............

**Buster Highmen** · 10-03-2017, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by hatchgreenchile

I struggle with how the internet has changed how we conversed with others.

I don't struggle at all anymore. I think it's painfully illuminated how really difficult it is to have any sort of meaningful discussion.

**smartyiak** · 10-03-2017, 08:29 AM

There also seems to be a "if I give an inch, they'll take a mile" logic.

Suddenly, "limit and tax silencers" becomes "they want to ban all guns" and "I think AR-15s should be legal" becomes "they support Sandy Hook and Vegas."

Instead of coming together to provide a solution that everyone can live with, it's "us vs. them."

sb · 10-03-2017, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by Beer Drinker

The Fear is being sold in a huge way.

I for one do not think we are going to Hell in a bucket.

We are on track to have 1000 less violent gun deaths this year over 2016. Hopefully that holds true.

Agreed and I certainly hope the lesser gun deaths will happen.

You can not stop evil.

You can only be good in your heart and do what is right.

**Bobby Stainless** · 10-03-2017, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by smartyiak

There also seems to be a "if I give an inch, they'll take a mile" logic.

Suddenly, "limit and tax silencers" becomes "they want to ban all guns" and "I think AR-15s should be legal" becomes "they support Sandy Hook and Vegas."

Instead of coming together to provide a solution that everyone can live with, it's "us vs. them."

That is the grand design of the American Political System.

**Ted Striker** · 10-03-2017, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by riser3

Fanatical opinions about guns, both for and against, prevents any kind of meaningful debate and concession.

There is no such thing as a fanatical opinion against guns.

**riser4** · 10-03-2017, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by pisteoff

There is no such thing as a fanatical opinion against guns.

Ummm, well, ya, there is. If one's stance is "ban 'em all." No room to meet somewhere in the middle. Same thing with "allow everything gun related, no restrictions period." No room to meet somewhere. Impasse. Goes for any topic. Abortion. Drugs. You name it.

**Rideski** · 10-03-2017, 09:31 AM

It's true across teh interwebs but even more pronounced on tgr where OGRE rained supreme for many years and Jong hazing was SOP.

Civilized discussion about guns? Cracka please, we don't have civilized discussions about pizza. Personnaly I mostly stuck around for the pretty pictures from distant lands and the local ski partners but some are only here for the drama. Pick a different venue if you want to rub elbows with rolled up sleeves on politicians.

**riser4** · 10-03-2017, 09:38 AM

BTW, I'm not singling out teh TRGz. This place may actually be the most civilized of all of the corners of the interwebz. I am not sure what that says. But it says something. And right back at ya. Leave it to the politicians? Cracka, please. THAT's part of the problem. Actually, it may in fact BE the problem. Because politicians attract lobbyists like flies on something stinky. It starts and needs to end with you and me.

**Rideski** · 10-03-2017, 09:54 AM

Civilized yeah right, that's why there's like 5 females here lol.
SHOW US YOUR TITS OR GET THE FUCK OUT
not you riser, your girlfriend or babysitter
And I didn't say leave it to the politicians, I said this isn't where you're going to get through to them, influence them, change them.

As Conundrum said in the Vegas thread, we've been debating guns since like 2002 and every thread is pretty much the same.

**riser4** · 10-03-2017, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Rideski

Civilized yeah right, that's why there's like 5 females here lol.
SHOW US YOUR TITS OR GET THE FUCK OUT
not you riser, your girlfriend or babysitter
And I didn't say leave it to the politicians, I said this isn't where you're going to get through to them, influence them, change them.

As Conundrum said in the Vegas thread, we've been debating guns since like 2002 and every thread is pretty much the same.

You sound like you need a hug.

**Rideski** · 10-03-2017, 10:00 AM

How civilized of you

**KenJongIll** · 10-03-2017, 10:01 AM

A few weeks ago, I was playing a round of Disc Golf at my local, ghetto surrounded park. Third tee, there were three young (13-16yo) kids sitting at the picnic table, passing a cell phone around(looking at photos I assume), talking about what kind of gun they wanted(and had)....Tec-9, Mac10; etc...I’m sure they were just interested in punching paper targets.