Salomon Warden 13 MNC *DEMO* paper template?

[gregorys]

You're very welcome. It's always nice to hear that someone has gotten some use out of one of my templates.

Let me look. I've got a second pair of Warden MNC demo's that need mounting, though I might not get to it for a few weeks - depends on a few things. [I can also do another test mount on a 2x4.]

The center line is something I'm not surprised about. It's really hard to get that super-exact, and then verify it. I thought it was pretty close. [But my reckoning was that a couple/few mm probably isn't something to get very concerned about.]

Anyway - let me look at the details you've sent when I get a chance and see what I think.
You might PM me your email addy - it might make discussing it a little easier.

-Greg

[gregorys]

I was going to do this via email, but thought it might be good to do it here. I'll email you a notice, in case you're not sub'd to the thread. [Sorry for getting your email addy, and doing a bait and switch on you.]

So, let me address the issues you raise.
1) The easiest: Boot center.
Your measurements certainly look right - though +/- a single mm when eyeballing it, would be terribly easy to do. Plus the mark on the ski isn't always accurate, and the guy who placed the jig could have easily been off a little. So, when we add up all those small margins, I don't think there's any particular version I could side with as being more authoritatively accurate. [IIRC, I got the measurements I put in the template, for boot center, from someone who did have the jig.]

So, I could change the boot center forward or back a mm or two - but I don't think that's going to change anyone's skiing experience at all. If I thought one was more authoritative, I'd be glad to do it. But the change is so small, it would require re-doing the template, it's not going to improve the skiing etc. It just doesn't seem worth doing.

2) The spacing on the heel piece
I've got a second Warden here that I'm going to mount in the next few days. I've printed the template and put it under the heel piece. The heel piece is quite thick, so it's hard to eyeball it carefully/accurately - but it's *SUPER* close to a match, if not exact. It might be 0.25-0.5mm off, but honestly, I can't imagine Soly using 32.75/32.5mm as a width. [And I'd bet good money they're not an even 1mm off.] And I can't imagine the spacing for front set is different than the rear set, either.

Part of what makes it a little tricky, is that the rear mounts are on those odd sliding pieces.

So, I guess my verdict is that the heel screw spacing really is 33mm for both sets. [Or exceedingly close, at least according to these old eyes.]

I dunno - I'm not married to 33mm being the only answer - but of the two bindings I've examined, 33mm just looks like the most accurate representation. And my mount to real skis sure seemed fine too.

Can you do a test mount to a 2x4 and see if you still think things need changing after that? I'll do the same.

-Greg

[JuiceboxHero]

Greg, sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I think you're right about the boot center!

It looks like my 'reference' QST 106 has its plates mounted about 2mm forward of center. While out skiing this weekend I had the chance to check out another QST 106 with MNC 13 demos, using my pass as a ruler (it's all I had ) it appeared that the heel plate was mounted about 2mm further back than mine.

I now have a QST 106 and a QST 99 mounted 2mm infront of the line . Your template is correct!

For the heel plate I ended up using a hole distance of 32mm and 33mm for the front and back holes, respectively. It appeared to line up well on a 2x4 so I ended up using that on the skis.

I'd post pictures but Imgur isn't cooperating, maybe another day.

Thanks again for taking the time to make the template!

[gregorys]

Quick reply -

I've been so busy, I've not had time to update this.
I have a new template, and I'll try to put it up ASAP.

However, after doing a new mount, both on 2x4 and skis - I think you're right. I've changed the template to 32mm width on the front-screws of the heel piece, and 33mm on the back-screws.

Thanks for pushing me on this, because I think this will be a better template because of it.

-Greg

[Shorty_J]

Is the template on the first post of your thread the final version? It says it was last updated in september of 2017.

Also does it line up with the warden 11 as well or just the 13?

I will obviously check this before mounting... just asking because I know you recently bought some warden 11 demo and thought you may have checked.

Also because a later post suggested you changed the front holes on the heel track to 32mm spacing and thought that was better, but the template in the first post still has them at 33mm.

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[Shorty_J]

Also, I didnt see this template in the sticky thread. It would be great if it could be added to one of the first posts but I think the OP (jondrums) would have to so that.

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[gregorys]

Also does it line up with the warden 11 as well or just the 13?

No, the Warden 11 MNC demo I currently have on-hand does NOT match the Warden 13 MNC demo template up ^^ there. [In the first post of this thread.]

Just off hand, the heel appears to have a 30mm width spacing [not 32.5/33] and 80mm length.
Next; The toe however looks identical.
Finally; A quick eyeball of the toe-to-heel spacing on the Warden 13 MNC demo template - it looks like there's about 20mm more spacing between the heel and toe. How that falls in relation to boot center, I'm not sure. I'd guess it's equally distributed.

I didnt see this template in the sticky thread. It would be great if it could be added to one of the first posts but I think the OP (jondrums) would have to so that.

Having a link in the main paper template would probably be handy - but that thread is so ugly and hard to troll through.
But if the OP is willing to add the templates I have created, and posted threads for, that would be handy.

I'll see about cranking an ultra quick and dirty template for the Warden 11 MNC Demo. If you or someone would do a quick test mount with it and give me feedback, that would be great. I'm not sure if I'll be keeping the Warden 11 I have. As you know, the BSL indicator got trashed in shipping, and I've yet to find a replacement, or an equitable way to resolve the problem. Thus, I may not get even a test mount with it.

Also note that I think there was a non MNC version of the 11 and perhaps the 13. [I'm really not sure. I suppose a troll through the Soly technical manuals for the last 3-4 years might tell me, but I'm too lazy. Glad to accept someone doing that leg-work for me!] Point being, the template up above, and I actually do Warden 11 demo template, it will be the MNC version and I can't know if it's the same for the non MNC. So, if someone has a non MNC version, tossing it over the template and simply eyeing things is probably a quick check. You'd at least know that the screw pattern/spacing for the toe/heel matches. There's also the issue of toe-to-heel spacing - which is harder to tell on. Though I'd probably be able to get a good feel for it, having done a few templates - without needing a test mount. I'll see if I can do a post about that at some point.

-Greg

[gregorys]

I just cranked a Warden 11 MNC demo template.
See here:
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...63#post5798463

[gregorys]

Sorry all - I see I didn't update the template. The latest changes are very minor, but I simply forget to update the PDF's here.

So, version 1.3 - latest, as of 2019-12-13

-Greg

[Bandit Man]

Props to Gregorys...just cranked out my first Warden 13 demo mount with his template. Worked great!

[Bandit Man]

Sorry all - I see I didn't update the template. The latest changes are very minor, but I simply forget to update the PDF's here.

So, version 1.3 - latest, as of 2019-12-13

-Greg

Did my second mount with the new template. Worked great for me!

[PeachesNCream]

Used the template for salomon mtn lab boots. Mounting went smoothly and everything lined up smoothly. I did have to set the demo binding 2 clicks bigger than its BSL. The boot was a 321 bsl and I had to set it to a 335ish bsl to get the forward pressure correct.

[gregorys]

Used the template for salomon mtn lab boots. Mounting went smoothly and everything lined up smoothly. I did have to set the demo binding 2 clicks bigger than its BSL. The boot was a 321 bsl and I had to set it to a 335ish bsl to get the forward pressure correct.

Do you have some more data you could share?
1) Was the print scaling right? [Did you measure one of the longer marked measurements on a printed template with a IRL ruler, and was the printed dimension the same as what you got with the IRL ruler?]
2) Are you sure you cut the template properly, and joined it at the right spot?
3) Do you have a pic of the assembled template you used? It might help me figure out what's going on.
There are probably other possible errors, but none come to mind quickly.


Being two notches off is about 5mm. [I'm assuming two notches off, on just the heel or just the toe, not both.]
Given I've mounted this template myself, several times, and others have also mounted it and BP has been right each time, I'm puzzled how you could have gotten something so far off.

Without more data, I can't really help.

I'd also suggest that this is exactly the kind of thing a mount on to a 2x4 would help prevent. No matter where the error came from [bad template assembly, bad scaling, bad template, etc.] if you do a test mount and put a boot in it, you'll probably find any errors before you've drilled your skis. Yeah, it's a PITA, especially if you have to run out to the store to buy a 2x4 - but they are a hell of a lot cheaper than skis.

[RockinB]

I used this template recently but recreated it using your dimensioning in CAD to overlay it over a Soly MTN template. I did a test mount and had a similar experience whereas I had to adjust the BSL one click longer (actually a half click since I only needed to either move the toe or heel, not both) than what the binding read to set the forward pressure properly. Besides that everything was spot on with it. I ended up doing inserts for the Warden and MTN by shifting the Warden back 1 cm from the BSC. I wouldn’t mess with the template anymore. It works great as is.

[PeachesNCream]

Do you have some more data you could share?
1) Was the print scaling right? [Did you measure one of the longer marked measurements on a printed template with a IRL ruler, and was the printed dimension the same as what you got with the IRL ruler?]
2) Are you sure you cut the template properly, and joined it at the right spot?
3) Do you have a pic of the assembled template you used? It might help me figure out what's going on.
There are probably other possible errors, but none come to mind quickly.


Being two notches off is about 5mm. [I'm assuming two notches off, on just the heel or just the toe, not both.]
Given I've mounted this template myself, several times, and others have also mounted it and BP has been right each time, I'm puzzled how you could have gotten something so far off.

Without more data, I can't really help.

I'd also suggest that this is exactly the kind of thing a mount on to a 2x4 would help prevent. No matter where the error came from [bad template assembly, bad scaling, bad template, etc.] if you do a test mount and put a boot in it, you'll probably find any errors before you've drilled your skis. Yeah, it's a PITA, especially if you have to run out to the store to buy a 2x4 - but they are a hell of a lot cheaper than skis.

1) Yep the print scaling was right (the holes wouldn't of aligned if that was the case).
2) I think so, I joined them at the boot center line.
3) I'm at work so I can't take a picture right now, but I kept the template so if I remember I'll send a pic.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally happy with the mount and because these are demo bindings it doesn't matter, just might limit the adjustability a little but no big deal. Just putting this out there as an fyi for other people using the template and maybe it'll encourage more 2x4 use hah. Appreciate you making the template

[Bandit Man]

Just adjusted a pair of my skis mounted with the template for my kid’s bsl 2 mondo points larger. Measurements for 317-mm BSL we’re spot on. Are you certain you got the boot center marks of the template lined up?

[gregorys]

1) Yep the print scaling was right (the holes wouldn't of aligned if that was the case).
2) I think so, I joined them at the boot center line.
3) I'm at work so I can't take a picture right now, but I kept the template so if I remember I'll send a pic.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally happy with the mount and because these are demo bindings it doesn't matter, just might limit the adjustability a little but no big deal. Just putting this out there as an fyi for other people using the template and maybe it'll encourage more 2x4 use hah. Appreciate you making the template

1) Yeah, that would be the case - just thought I'd ask.
2) Ok. Sounds good.
3) If you can, that would be handy.

I'm not at all offended at the notice.
I put the templates up so they're useful, and if they're wrong, they aren't useful. So, it's GOOD to hear about a problem. [And it's especially helpful if I get quality follow-up. I have been annoyed at people posting in my template threads when they are complaining about a completely different template (say the non-demo one), however. ]

I did update the template recently, and certainly didn't intend to adjust the toe-to-heel spacing. I usually keep the old revisions of the files, so let me check the old versions [if I have them] and see if the toe-heel spacing got tweaked inadvertently.

Yeah, there's ways to adjust the FP by putting the toe or heel piece in the "wrong" place, but that's an ugly hack, IMO. I want the template to be right.

So, let me check the revisions and see if I can run the problem down.

-Greg

[gregorys]

So, I figured I'd just do it now, because if I put it off, I'll forget.

Checked the next oldest version I have - and it shows the distance from the centers of the front screws on the heel to boot center as 117mm. It shows the distance from the centers of the rear screws on the toe to boot center as 114mm. [It also measures that when printed, so the stated distances actually match the actual printed template lines too.]

The new template [I downloaded it fresh from here, just to be sure we're talking about the same template] shows the same distances and measures the same too.

And the original measurement from a shop template [thanks GregL] was 230-231mm total distance from front screws at the heel to rear screws on the toe. [Which also matches the current template.]

I'm kind of puzzled.

What does the description block say?

[PeachesNCream]

Titles:
"Salomon-Warden-13-demo-toe-1.3.pdf"
"Salomon-Warden-13-demo-heel-1.3.pdf"

I'll get some pics later this evening.

[gregorys]

I'm not sure what happened, but I'm pushing up a new template. Version 1.4
It's got the correct heel-to-toe spacing.

Verified.

[PeachesNCream]

Here is a pic of the assembly. Sorry for the delay, went to Whistler for a long weekend and then forgot about it

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[gregorys]

That looks like you did your part correctly.
I'm guessing that if you measure the heel and toe distance to the boot center they're not really 117/114mm, right?
Not sure how, but it looks like the template got screwed up.

As noted on 3/9/2020, I posted an updated/corrected template.
If you'd double check it and compare to the template you have there, that would be nice.

-Greg

[PeachesNCream]

That looks like you did your part correctly.
I'm guessing that if you measure the heel and toe distance to the boot center they're not really 117/114mm, right?
Not sure how, but it looks like the template got screwed up.

As noted on 3/9/2020, I posted an updated/corrected template.
If you'd double check it and compare to the template you have there, that would be nice.

-Greg

No, I measured them and they're right on the money. Weird

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[Pete_N]

I've been scouring the internet for a paper template for these bindings (Salomon Warden MNC 13s--not DEMOs). No luck so far. Any ideas? The lovely ones you've provided here look great but there are obvious differences between the DEMO version and this one. Bindingfreedom(dot)com has some generic Salomon templates, but these are clearly wrong too. Thanks!

[gregorys]

I'm sure there's one out there - probably in the binding template thread. (I think having all those templates in one single thread is pretty awful to find anything - but that's how it started and it's more or less stayed that way since.)

I am quite sure there's one, since people come to this thread to complain about problems with the non-demo template. [Just read the thread if you'd like to amuse yourself.]

I'd try this:
https://www.slidewright.com/powdergu...ing-templates/
Get the soly template - it's supposed to be for all soly alpine bindings, I think. Print it out and then drop the heel-toe on it and see if they match.

There's also a soly one on this page;
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...aper-Templates

I'd check either of those templates against the physical toe/heel, and I'd probably do a test mount too.