This week in Canada.

[BCMtnHound]

This should also be a Heritage Minute - the fact that you can go to a village with 200 people in the middle of the frozen tundra and still get ginger beef on fried rice.

Pathway to work visa/TFWP and then permanent residency. Observed that in a few small towns I’ve lived in. Chinese family buys the small town Chinese restaurant, gets visa to work, after a couple years applies for permanent residency. Moves family sells restaurant, moves to a nicer, full service community. A new family takes over the business, wash rinse repeat. We have one of those in our town - I think it’s on family four or five since I’ve moved here 15yrs ago. A bit of a crapshoot eating there - some families do better at the cooking than others, and you never know exactly when the place changes hands. I think Indians are doing the same with one of our local gas stations - just went under new mgmt this spring, and the previous group of brothers only had it for 3yrs.
Just for fairness, a young Swiss family did the same thing about 8yrs ago. Brought over their logging company, got their permanent residency 4yrs ago I think.

[ex-powderbroker]

First dump today. Im going to check out some covered grass skiing shortly. Not ideal but fresh is freshAttachment 474514

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First tracks in North America!

[riser4]

First dump today. Im going to check out some covered grass skiing shortly. Not ideal but fresh is freshAttachment 474514

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Heh

Git sum fast grass!

I'm bummed you weren't in Fredericton back when I had to go there a few times a year. Have a Picaroons for me.

Thing#1 might go back there for grad school. Not sure. It will probably be a couple years from now and you'll probably have moved on.

[garyfromterrace]

Heh

Git sum fast grass!

...... It will probably be a couple years from now and you'll probably have moved back to Revi where you belong and GfT can make more turns with you ya hoser.

FIFY

[XXX-er]

Pathway to work visa/TFWP and then permanent residency. Observed that in a few small towns I’ve lived in. Chinese family buys the small town Chinese restaurant, gets visa to work, after a couple years applies for permanent residency. Moves family sells restaurant, moves to a nicer, full service community. A new family takes over the business, wash rinse repeat. We have one of those in our town - I think it’s on family four or five since I’ve moved here 15yrs ago. A bit of a crapshoot eating there - some families do better at the cooking than others, and you never know exactly when the place changes hands. I think Indians are doing the same with one of our local gas stations - just went under new mgmt this spring, and the previous group of brothers only had it for 3yrs.
Just for fairness, a young Swiss family did the same thing about 8yrs ago. Brought over their logging company, got their permanent residency 4yrs ago I think.

immigrate to canada but no jobs for my people so open chinese restaurant

thro a little red dye in the sweet n sour sauce and the Gwai lo will lap it up

[grinch]

get some!

Some

First tracks in North America!

Well, 1st in the marratimes, marra!!!

Heh

Git sum fast grass!

I'm bummed you weren't in Fredericton back when I had to go there a few times a year. Have a Picaroons for me.

Thing#1 might go back there for grad school. Not sure. It will probably be a couple years from now and you'll probably have moved on.

Hit up her old stomping grounds. Honor roll below!
Crankin to the bus stop

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[riser4]

Nice.

[grinch]

Nice.

If im still around, we'll have to go for some left and rights up at crabbe. Should have a bunch more local glading finished by then as well

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[LHutz Esq]

Another BC Lodge having issues with the BC Government Lands Folks:

https://www.bccourts.ca/jdb-txt/sc/2...23BCSC1898.htm

I've never been - but it looks amazing! Hope they work it out.

https://snowymountain.ca/wp/

[BCMtnHound]

Another BC Lodge having issues with the BC Government Lands Folks:

https://www.bccourts.ca/jdb-txt/sc/2...23BCSC1898.htm

I've never been - but it looks amazing! Hope they work it out.

https://snowymountain.ca/wp/

It’s a very long story. I get along with both Dana and Steve, but they have always had difficulties getting along with their neighbours, other legit users of the local terrain, and with govt. Some of their issues are legit, some created by themselves. Shame, I enjoyed staying at their camp, and for what it’s worth, I’ve never heard a negative statement about their actual guiding chops.

The terrain is awesome, although just my luck when I took my AST2 at SM, we had a freak Jan rain followed by a hard freeze. Even neighbour Wiegele had challenges finding soft conditions for those couple weeks until the next refresh. But usually, the powder is tits deep and refreshed often.

[garyfromterrace]

It’s a very long story. I get along with both Dana and Steve, but they have always had difficulties getting along with their neighbours, other legit users of the local terrain, and with govt. Some of their issues are legit, some created by themselves. Shame, I enjoyed staying at their camp, and for what it’s worth, I’ve never heard a negative statement about their actual guiding chops.

The terrain is awesome, although just my luck when I took my AST2 at SM, we had a freak Jan rain followed by a hard freeze. Even neighbour Wiegele had challenges finding soft conditions for those couple weeks until the next refresh. But usually, the powder is tits deep and refreshed often.

I went in early season 3 or 4 years ago with Dana to help open the lodge up, known her since about '92 or '93 I think. Awesome terrain there for sure. It's more than a pity that they don't seem to be very good on the business side of things. I don't know much legalese, but what I read there in Hutz's link sure doesn't sound promising for them.

[kootenayskier]

[QUOTE=LHutz Esq;6955267]Another BC Lodge having issues with the BC Government Lands Folks:

https://www.bccourts.ca/jdb-txt/sc/2...23BCSC1898.htm

I've never been - but it looks amazing! Hope they work it out.

https://snowymountain.ca/wp/

Too bad, the regulatory system isn’t that difficult to comply with. From what I’ve seen, the sort of weirdos who are drawn to this sort of enterprise really just want to be masters of their own domain, but they need to be careful, as losing touch with reality is an occupational hazard, sometimes to the point of self sabotage.

[LeeLau]

Lands Water aka LWBC rarely enforce tenure compliance. Snowy Mountain must have done something egregious (ie what kootenayskier said).

Trevor H at Ymir also sufficiently pissed off regulators to get to the point he did where it'll all be shut down

[BCMtnHound]

Lands Water aka LWBC rarely enforce tenure compliance. Snowy Mountain must have done something egregious (ie what kootenayskier said).

Trevor H at Ymir also sufficiently pissed off regulators to get to the point he did where it'll all be shut down

Just for a point of clarity, the initial govt ministry that dealt with the Snowy Mtn occupancy tenure was Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations (as indicated in the determination linked above by Hutz). Most LoO rec tenures (minor)went through FLNRO at the time - Rec Sites and Trails in our office spent a lot of time on the file, both on the tenure aspects, and in the relationships between SM and the local Blue River snowmobile club. Rec Sites and Trails are now under the new Water Lands and Resource Stewardship - WaLRuS (I preferred the first iteration of Land Water and Resource Stewardship - LandWaRS - but some internal twit posted about the acronym before final post, so they changed the name).

[LHutz Esq]

Ya, Gary it is not a good situation.

Basically, tenures are done on a license or lease. The tenure holder gets to run their operation on our public lands, and to a very limited extent, limit others use. In exchange they pay, generally a nominalish, a fee, and agree to abide by the terms of the license.

The kicker is that it remains our public lands and our gov't can decide that when the tenure period comes up that they won't renew the license. Most of these agreements say that at the end of the term you may have to remove your facilities and return the land to a state similar to what you found it in, or the Gov't can keep them. Gov't's call.

When some of these tenure holders spend serious $ to build their facilities this can be a huge loss and expense.

On paper, it's kind of a bad deal. You spend $ putting in lodges etc. then the Gov't for any one of a myriad of reasons can kick you out and either keep your lodge or make you remove it. It also makes it hard for the smaller operations to get financing.

Probably because of this imbalance, it is somewhat rare that you don't get a renewal at the end of your term or there is a termination for breach of the license. Like really, really rare ime. I have worked with tenure holders in the past that have been very far offside and the government as bent over backwards to assist in getting back into compliance. When that was not possible, they assisted with the transfer of the tenure to someone who could. I have also worked on files where the local F'N had an interest in the tenure so we moved the tenures of retiring folks/estates of dead tenure holders to F'N development corps.

In this case it looks like the LoO was up in 2020 and they were not offered a renewal for whatever reason (such reasons are appealable). But instead of vacating, as required by the license, they seem to have just continued on. Lands wanted a court order saying that they couldn't continue to operate without a LoO. It is also noteworthy, I think, that the Province sought ancillary orders enjoining tampering with the structures, or threatening or harassing defendant employees in accessing those structures. That usually doesn't happen without some sort of indication that it is needed. Basically, if everyone is going to play nice, the court will not make a "you better behave" order. This makes me think that even if they could get into compliance, a new License is very unlikely.

It looks like the tenure holder here wanted to argue that because the lease was terminated earlier - they had moved to a month-to-month arrangement. I am not sure where this would have gotten them even if the court agreed, as that would have just meant that it was terminable on notice.

As noted by the Judge, these agreements are not tenant friendly. Whenever I explain the terms of these to a client they are always surprised at what they allow the gov't to do. Also, how they are not as "exclusive" as one might believe. There is nothing in most tenures that says that the public can't also recreate in that area for example, or that a free miner can't go looking for minerals etc.. Unless land use regulations say otherwise, our wilderness is ours and we can sled, ski, and heli where we want (in a non-commercial manner of course). They almost always sign anyway as there is only very limited negotiation room. And the client often has vision clouded by dreams of wilderness paradise for little money down!

Despite the termination of the LoO, they seem to have continued their business and went about ignoring the termination notices and running the Lodge. I am not giving legal advice here - but that is a bold strategy Cotton. It rarely ends well. Another tack would have been to comply with the termination - but sue for a new license or more likely damages.

In this case, once the Prov proved it has title to the land, it was up to the former tenure holders to prove that they had a right to continue operating on it. Contrary to popular opinion - just occupying land does not give one a right to it. Squatters rights are very, very, very limited in BC. This meant that what was a malfeasance of public office case, became a case in trespass.

So, basically the Gov't got its injunction. The case has yet to be fully decided. There have been cases, even very recently, where the decisions of Lands branch folks have been overturned. So they might still win in the end.

Gov't decisions can not be malicious or arbitrary, if they did not operate in good faith there may be a case. I, mostly because of the confluence of law and wilderness, took a look at the amended notice of claim. I can def see some arguments, however, their issues also seem to involve other tenure holders (Mike Wiegle and the local sled community). Where the Gov't decision maker has to balance competing interests, the courts generally give them a degree of discretion.

It will be interesting to see what comes of this.

[XXX-er]

about 8 yrs ago on the road into the sled p-lot up the telkwa there were at least 10 hand painted 4x8 sign with a sled slogan, they were all 30 ft up the trees at the road side which would have required a cherry picker, then the gate across the river into the cariboo habitat was torched off it posts and thrown in the telkwa

so shoot govy bro a text to ask " have you seen this ?"

" this file is taking up all my time right now " buddy replys

[garyfromterrace]

Thanks for the informative insights Mr. Hutz. It's interesting to me that as a Co-op we (MMC) are super aware that any off-sides regarding our tenure are strictly verboten and strive to ensure we're always in compliance. Even when that compliance may come at a large financial cost for a small non-profit. Yet it seems on the surface that one has to really screw up (only my opinion of course, but knowing a little bit about Snowy and reading about Ymir) to have tenure not renewed. I totally feel for the lodge owners in both of these cases, but at some point you just can't have total cowboy tactics or disregard for regulations on crown (our) lands. I'm sure there is lots that I don't know about both lodges in question here, but hey it's TGR where you're allowed/encouraged to spout ill-informed opinions at will.

[BCMtnHound]

I'm sure there is lots that I don't know about both lodges in question here, but hey it's TGR where you're allowed/encouraged to spout ill-informed opinions at will.

Well, unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I both live in this little hamlet, and also work in the big bad govt office. So some of the juicy stuff must be withheld!

That said, Blue River has many cowboys, the largest one just passed away. The files of non-compliance just get a little thicker every year, with govt staff trying to make the best of a haywire situation. Go to one party to chat about their malfeasance, and instantly the fingers get pointed the their neighbour - ‘How come so-and-so is getting away with THAT?! Why are you picking on little ol’ ME?!’

Fun times.

[LeeLau]

Yet it seems on the surface that one has to really screw up (only my opinion of course, but knowing a little bit about Snowy and reading about Ymir) to have tenure not renewed..

Gary . Nail on head.

BCMountainHound. Thx for correction. I got lost in alphabet soup! FLNRO rarely takes this kind of action so it's even more remarkable!

[XXX-er]

" it is somewhat rare that you don't get a renewal at the end of your term or there is a termination for breach of the license. Like really, really rare ime. I have worked with tenure holders in the past that have been very far offside and the government as bent over backwards to assist in getting back into compliance. "

so how does it happen twice in a year, has something changed or is there something different, or just a coincidence ?

[crashidy]

Not friends with Stephen and Dana. Holy crap, I'm surprised they've made it this long. Can't budget, can't plan, lie through their though. Went there about 10 years ago. Supposed to heli in. Trying to confirm info and the ghosted us. Call from an Ontario number(fresh money) and of course they answer. Great tenure, Stephen was a good guide. But that's where it stopped. I'm glad I brought my sleds as back up. They pulled the rest of the group in on ropes tied to a toboggan. One blown ACL on the way in by a guest.
Took me two years an threat of legal action to get my money back for the heli we didn't get. "we spent it all on the previous group"
We eventually got paid once they booked more people.

Remind me I need to head sled skiing in blue this year.

[XXX-er]

https://www.castanet.net/news/Kamloo...pson-ski-lodge

an artical^^

[kootenayskier]

" it is somewhat rare that you don't get a renewal at the end of your term or there is a termination for breach of the license. Like really, really rare ime. I have worked with tenure holders in the past that have been very far offside and the government as bent over backwards to assist in getting back into compliance. "

so how does it happen twice in a year, has something changed or is there something different, or just a coincidence ?

I worked for and was friends with the owner of Ymir until about 10 years ago, and that was a debacle set in motion a long time ago which just happened to come to a head now. I don’t have any insight into the Snowy situation. However, as someone who deals with RSTBC authorizations (for trails and cabins) on a regular basis, I’m seeing new enthusiasm for enforcement. Local Rec officers have an unusual amount of discretion in these matters, so it’s difficult to know the extent of high level direction or policy change, but this year was the first time RSTBC has come down hard on a group of illegal trail builders, so it’s possible we’re seeing some real change.

[BCMtnHound]

RSTBC over the last year have had greatly increased budgets. For the first summer in forever, many rec districts got summer works crews to do some much needed work to the infrastructure. Add to that the rec officers finally got their job classification review completed and got a bump to the next classification - retroactive to the start of the request, which was close to a decade or so ago. So the rec officers are feeling good about themselves at the moment. We’ll see how the transition to the new ministry goes (they are with the same ministry as prov parks staff now - another chronically underfunded agency).

[grinch]

https://www.castanet.net/news/Kamloo...pson-ski-lodge

an artical^^

Unrelated, other than "castanet", but nice vernon article on a fairly sizeable mtb trail system being added in the vernon/coldstream area. Vernon is shaping up really nice for a primo mtb destination

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