Climate Change

[PB]

Putting it out there cause I thought it had some valuable insight and I pretty much agree with what he says.

EV's are great in theory, but the current situation we're putting the cart before the horse. Its pointless to have EV's powered by fossil fuels, yep they are...until we have clean energy its pointless ...Solar, Hydro, and Wind are cute and not everyone can benefit from those... its going to take Nuclear energy to make it work globally...Industry and Agriculture are the main contributors so its silly to go after folks driving gas cars when its going to have zero impact if you dont go after Industry and Agriculture FIRST! AND the negative impacts of mining cobalt, lithium, and nickel on the earth to produce all the batteries for the WORLD? and what we'll do with them after? We should be targeting industry first, agriculture second, setting up the infrastructure to support EV's, then lets deal with producing/transitioning to EV's last.

Shoot they were asking people not to charge their EV's in California over the weekend...pretty clear we dont have the infrastructure, and thats a very small percentage compared to gas powered vehicles in CA...imagine if everyone was driving EV's would be a disaster.

If we go into this EV thing without a concrete plan its going to be an absolute shit show.

I'd encourage everyone to do some research on cobalt and lithium mining watch some YouTube videos...toxic cost of going green. Its all a good idea in theory but we gotta figure something out thats sustainable. Theres only a very few people driving EV's now....imagine if the whole world was driving them and what the impacts on our planet would be not only to produce them but how to power them as well.

Its a tricky thing cause its not going to happen with one administration or by slapping a bunch of regulations on industry that cripple business...its going to have to happen with time and innovation...it cant be forced upon people.

Thats all I got haha...post and ghost. bye.

I understand the objective logic, however infrastructure preceding demand isn't mandatory; ideally, sure, but it is often the demand that pushes/creates the infrastructure.

[liv2ski]

Fucking terrifying. This whole thing is spiraling faster than anyone predicted. I have so much climate anxiety, especially for my kid and what she’ll witness.

Yup, I am with you and my wife thinks I drink to much Koolaid. That is why I helped my daughters get their Canadian citizenship years back, as I told them, "at some point in your life, you may want to live there".

[SumJongGuy]

Yup, I am with you and my wife thinks I drink to much Koolaid. That is why I helped my daughters get their Canadian citizenship years back, as I told them, "at some point in your life, you may want to live there".

My wife's employer is based in Canada. Knowing we are in is somewhat comforting. However, if the USA falls to a fascist dictatorship, Canada's sovereignty will also be at great risk, and quickly..

[mar123]

.... but it is often the demand that pushes/creates the infrastructure.

Yes I agree and that is my concern... The natural demand for EV's from the general public that would allow the infrastructure to be built along side demand to support it at a responsible rate isn't happening that way ....Instead the transition from combustion engines to EV's is being pushed onto the general public by our governments at an accelerated rate apx. by 2030 which is extremely irresponsible IMO...and there lies the problem....Unless our government puts in the ground work and creates a solid infrastructure, sustainable mining of resources to produce and clean energy to power BEFORE converting everyone to EV's this will be an absolute disaster. I dont think governments should be pushing people towards EV's and countries banning combustion engines is not necessarily a good thing. Give the people time to innovate and come up with reasonable solutions...IMO governments telling people what and when they can drive is not a good thing for us. EV's in California is a prime example its already a shitshow.

This infrastructure build out is already happening ....National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI) Formula Program.

The damage we are going to inflict to our earth to mine all the materials necessary to build EVs for the world and how to power them IMO just seems worse rather then if we stayed with combustion engines and found ways to make them run more efficient and reduce emissions. Maybe im wrong who knows.

But you can expect major Lithium mining operations to start popping up here in the US...one place to keep an eye on is Thacker Pass in Nevada... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejF2aGRAmrI

[shaft]

Unless our government puts in the ground work and creates a solid infrastructure, sustainable mining of resources to produce and clean energy to power BEFORE converting everyone to EV's this will be an absolute disaster. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejF2aGRAmrI

We are behind...by a lot. When you throw a hail mary, you don't aim for where the receiver is, but where you want them to be. When you catch a hail mary, you don't wait for the ball to be in the air to sprint as fast as you can. Growth on all sides of the renewable energy-electrification nexus must be planned and occur in parallel.

-By the time a car purchased today is retired (in 2037), no matter where it is, it will likely be running on 90%+ carbon free electricity.
-If purchased today in Norway, it will run on 100% carbon free electricity for its entire life.
-If purchased today in San Mateo County, where 50% of new vehicles sales were EVs so far this year, it is already running on 100% carbon free electricity.
-EV has already been better on total emissions for years.

Generally speaking, your arguments to maintain the status quo, or wait for some magical event, or research it more, or move slower - remind me of an old document. These are the sabotage tactics being employed by the fossil fuel industry every day, and whether you are pushing this narrative on purpose or as a naive tool of the fossil fuel industry, you appear to be using the same tactics.

Simple Sabotage Field Manual, 1944

(11) General Interference with Organizations and Production

(a) Organizations and Conferences (1) Insist on doing everything through “channels.” Never permit short-cuts to be taken in order to expedite decisions.

(2) Make “speeches.” Talk as frequently as possible and at great length. Illustrate your “points” by long anecdotes and accounts of personal experiences. Never hesitate to make a few appropriate “patriotic” comments.

(3) When possible, refer all matters to committees, for “further study and consideration.” Attempt to make the committees as large as possible—never less than five.

(4) Bring up irrelevant issues as frequently as possible.

(5) Haggle over precise wordings of communications, minutes, resolutions.

(6) Refer back to matters decided upon at the last meeting and attempt to re-open the question of the advisability of that decision.

(7) Advocate “caution.” Be “reasonable” and urge your fellow-conferees to be “reasonable” and avoid haste which might result in embarrassments or difficulties later on.

(8) Be worried about the propriety of any decision—raise the question of whether such action as is contemplated lies within the jurisdiction of the group or whether it might conflict with the policy of some higher echelon.

[AK47bp]

And you put her in that position because of that compulsory breeding program we have in this country, right?

I'm in my mid 60's, and have a son in his mid 30's, and thank God he has the good sense to realize it would be nothing but cruel and selfish to have children. He's been right about a lot more than he's been wrong about.

Wish I had listened to him, we would both be a few million dollars richer, and much better positioned to deal with a rapidly changing climate, but I found it awfully hard to listen seriously to someone in his 20's about investment opportunities that were centered on a world that will soon look completely different from the one I was born into.

Hol up here for a minute.

So you and your son both agree he should of been an abortion?




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[The SnowShow]

I’d like to think we’ll come up with something to avoid a future like that in the Time article. JFC.

[mar123]

We are behind...by a lot. When you throw a hail mary, you don't aim for where the receiver is, but where you want them to be. When you catch a hail mary, you don't wait for the ball to be in the air to sprint as fast as you can. Growth on all sides of the renewable energy-electrification nexus must be planned and occur in parallel.

-By the time a car purchased today is retired (in 2037), no matter where it is, it will likely be running on 90%+ carbon free electricity.
-If purchased today in Norway, it will run on 100% carbon free electricity for its entire life.
-If purchased today in San Mateo County, where 50% of new vehicles sales were EVs so far this year, it is already running on 100% carbon free electricity.
-EV has already been better on total emissions for years.

Generally speaking, your arguments to maintain the status quo, or wait for some magical event, or research it more, or move slower - remind me of an old document. These are the sabotage tactics being employed by the fossil fuel industry every day, and whether you are pushing this narrative on purpose or as a naive tool of the fossil fuel industry, you appear to be using the same tactics.

Bwaa haha San Mateo County cant even power their city and is asking people to reduce their power consumption....and this is the future? yeah ok. Im not against EV's but there are some major issues and concerns that should be addressed.

[paulster2626]

Hol up here for a minute.

So you and your son both agree he should of been an abortion?




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No, no, you've misunderstood. It's okay for him to have a child, just not anyone else later on.

[uglymoney]

Bwaa haha San Mateo County cant even power their city and is asking people to reduce their power consumption....and this is the future? yeah ok. Im not against EV's but there are some major issues and concerns that should be addressed.

Snap! For sure need to cancel the EV program now that the climate change induced heatwave was successfully navigated in Cali with barely more than a few blown transformers.

Should go with the Texas model. The way they handled the natural gas freezeup during a record cold climate induced extreme weather event was brilliant. Huge win for natural gas profits. If the Koch Brothers are winning, we all win. We are still paying a nat gas premium for their (winning) fuck up here in Iowa but that only proves the status quo is working!

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[Supermoon]

Bwaa haha San Mateo County cant even power their city and is asking people to reduce their power consumption....and this is the future? yeah ok. Im not against EV's but there are some major issues and concerns that should be addressed.

Yeah, should stick with gas, because external events never screw with that. We've never had to rely on our enemies to supply us with the one substance our economy needs to be strong. That would just be batshit crazy, right? To let Putin decide if we are in a recession or not? Who would let that happen on their watch? Better stick with gas, cause it's safer.

[Dr. Adirondack]

Hol up here for a minute.

So you and your son both agree he should of been an abortion?




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He reminds me regularly of how selfish and short-sighted we were to have him, so yeah, I carry guilt over that with me. Knowing what I know now, and seeing how the world has changed since 1988, he's absolutely right that he should have been a blowjob.

[old goat]

And you put her in that position because of that compulsory breeding program we have in this country, right?

I'm in my mid 60's, and have a son in his mid 30's, and thank God he has the good sense to realize it would be nothing but cruel and selfish to have children. He's been right about a lot more than he's been wrong about.

Wish I had listened to him, we would both be a few million dollars richer, and much better positioned to deal with a rapidly changing climate, but I found it awfully hard to listen seriously to someone in his 20's about investment opportunities that were centered on a world that will soon look completely different from the one I was born into.

Putting it out there cause I thought it had some valuable insight and I pretty much agree with what he says.

EV's are great in theory, but the current situation we're putting the cart before the horse. Its pointless to have EV's powered by fossil fuels, yep they are...until we have clean energy its pointless ...Solar, Hydro, and Wind are cute and not everyone can benefit from those... its going to take Nuclear energy to make it work globally...Industry and Agriculture are the main contributors so its silly to go after folks driving gas cars when its going to have zero impact if you dont go after Industry and Agriculture FIRST! AND the negative impacts of mining cobalt, lithium, and nickel on the earth to produce all the batteries for the WORLD? and what we'll do with them after? We should be targeting industry first, agriculture second, setting up the infrastructure to support EV's, then lets deal with producing/transitioning to EV's last.

Shoot they were asking people not to charge their EV's in California over the weekend...pretty clear we dont have the infrastructure, and thats a very small percentage compared to gas powered vehicles in CA...imagine if everyone was driving EV's would be a disaster.

If we go into this EV thing without a concrete plan its going to be an absolute shit show.

I'd encourage everyone to do some research on cobalt and lithium mining watch some YouTube videos...toxic cost of going green. Its all a good idea in theory but we gotta figure something out thats sustainable. Theres only a very few people driving EV's now....imagine if the whole world was driving them and what the impacts on our planet would be not only to produce them but how to power them as well.

Its a tricky thing cause its not going to happen with one administration or by slapping a bunch of regulations on industry that cripple business...its going to have to happen with time and innovation...it cant be forced upon people.

Thats all I got haha...post and ghost. bye.

You're assuming a climate saving future where everyone replaces their gas powered cars with EV's (and their gas appliances with electric) and otherwise goes right on living the same lives they were living before. That is not what a climate-saving future looks like. Nor is it likely that the earth will continue to support 7B+++ people or anything close to that number.

[PB]

I can hear the tipping points going over as we speak. Retreat seems more and more to be our only option, throwing up as much token resistance as we can to try to keep the looming catastrophe to a "minimum". Things change; adjust or die. I do think we as a species will come out the other side, but it will no longer be "our" planet ..... we will have learned with much pain and suffering that we're all in this together, and with humility and respect we will eventually, slowly rebuild a better world, having learned from our past mistakes

......... I could be wrong, however. Good climates on both sides, some my best friends are getting fabulous tans, and I"m checking out in 10-20 years so all I care about is the next 5 years of snow fall.

Curmudgeons gonna curmudgeon.

[SumJongGuy]

You're assuming a climate saving future where everyone replaces their gas powered cars with EV's (and their gas appliances with electric) and otherwise goes right on living the same lives they were living before. That is not what a climate-saving future looks like. Nor is it likely that the earth will continue to support 7B+++ people or anything close to that number.

So if we can cut it down to 3B people again can we keep the fossil fuel decadence? Nuclear winter also seems like an increasingly likely resolution.

If only there was something we could do..... We can't even get 200 ski freaks to agree on what/where "Upstate NY" is...

[Sirshredalot]

You're assuming a climate saving future where everyone replaces their gas powered cars with EV's (and their gas appliances with electric) and otherwise goes right on living the same lives they were living before. That is not what a climate-saving future looks like. Nor is it likely that the earth will continue to support 7B+++ people or anything close to that number.

I mean, a climate-saving future also involves technological improvement to steel and concrete manufacturing, battery or biofuel propulsion for shipping and air travel, and also some amount of carbon sequestration or removal. But that will just about do it.

Some of that shit is probably going to be kind of expensive, so people will make lifestyle changes around the shifts in relative costs of consumption goods, but we do that constantly already. And we've got a lot of clever financial analysts and engineers who are keen to wring every nickel out of manufacturing and transportation. These problems are mostly solvable.

Don't get me wrong: our land use policies suck and desperately need reform, there are other environmental problems beyond the climate, and our society has social ills and international diplomacy to address.

But climate is a solvable problem. Doing so doesn't mean mass sterilization or giving up a fairly plush quality of life.

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[AK47bp]

He reminds me regularly of how selfish and short-sighted we were to have him, so yeah, I carry guilt over that with me. Knowing what I know now, and seeing how the world has changed since 1988, he's absolutely right that he should have been a blowjob.

Ya know, you can still fix this mistake, it’ll be messy but you can right this wrong.




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[mar123]

Yeah, should stick with gas, because external events never screw with that. We've never had to rely on our enemies to supply us with the one substance our economy needs to be strong. That would just be batshit crazy, right? To let Putin decide if we are in a recession or not? Who would let that happen on their watch? Better stick with gas, cause it's safer.

Bwahahah we have more then enough oil here to be self sufficient...for how long who knows, but its a mega f' ton.... we should be drilling here and producing until we get our EV infrastructure up to speed. Then we can make a smooth transition away from combustion engines and fossil fuels.... We dont need Russian oil but unfortunately a lot of European countries do!

and you think oil is bad just wait until we need cobalt, lithium and nickel for batteries. whoops.

[mar123]

like this too...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ScJ_FwaZk

and this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zcrsgdl_hP0

[Supermoon]

Bwahahah we have more then enough oil here to be self sufficient...for how long who knows, but its a mega f' ton.... we should be drilling here and producing until we get our EV infrastructure up to speed. Then we can make a smooth transition away from combustion engines and fossil fuels.... We dont need Russian oil but unfortunately a lot of European countries do!

and you think oil is bad just wait until we need cobalt, lithium and nickel for batteries. whoops.

It’s a global market you potato. It doesn’t matter what we produce if it’s commodified across the globe. Even if we aren’t literally buying Russian oil, their price effects the price US oil producers charge. Also, I would venture we don’t want to be tied to Middle Eastern oil either for a variety of similar reasons.

Also, even if we COULD get all the oil we need out of the ground, should we? Is it economical if we account for the externalities it causes?

“We should be drilling here” is a pipe dream based on bad science and hope. Sure maybe a unicorn shooting rainbows out of its ass COULD show up, but more likely we’ll be standing in a river of horse shit.

[mar123]

It’s a global market you potato. It doesn’t matter what we produce if it’s commodified across the globe. Even if we aren’t literally buying Russian oil, their price effects the price US oil producers charge. Also, I would venture we don’t want to be tied to Middle Eastern oil either for a variety of similar reasons.

Also, even if we COULD get all the oil we need out of the ground, should we? Is it economical if we account for the externalities it causes?

“We should be drilling here” is a pipe dream based on bad science and hope. Sure maybe a unicorn shooting rainbows out of its ass COULD show up, but more likely we’ll be standing in a river of horse shit.

Right, but we can influence the market by leveraging supply. And we should also be helping our Euro buds with oil instead of letting them be held hostage by Russia.

So when 2030 rolls around instead of oil were going to rely on "enemy" countries for the production of cobalt, lithium, and nickel for batteries? Really were just swapping out one resource for the other.

ps thanks for the good response enjoying the conversation

[WMD]

Putting it out there cause I thought it had some valuable insight and I pretty much agree with what he says.

EV's are great in theory, but the current situation we're putting the cart before the horse. Its pointless to have EV's powered by fossil fuels, yep they are...until we have clean energy its pointless ...Solar, Hydro, and Wind are cute and not everyone can benefit from those... its going to take Nuclear energy to make it work globally...Industry and Agriculture are the main contributors so its silly to go after folks driving gas cars when its going to have zero impact if you dont go after Industry and Agriculture FIRST! AND the negative impacts of mining cobalt, lithium, and nickel on the earth to produce all the batteries for the WORLD? and what we'll do with them after? We should be targeting industry first, agriculture second, setting up the infrastructure to support EV's, then lets deal with producing/transitioning to EV's last.

Shoot they were asking people not to charge their EV's in California over the weekend...pretty clear we dont have the infrastructure, and thats a very small percentage compared to gas powered vehicles in CA...imagine if everyone was driving EV's would be a disaster.

If we go into this EV thing without a concrete plan its going to be an absolute shit show.

I'd encourage everyone to do some research on cobalt and lithium mining watch some YouTube videos...toxic cost of going green. Its all a good idea in theory but we gotta figure something out thats sustainable. Theres only a very few people driving EV's now....imagine if the whole world was driving them and what the impacts on our planet would be not only to produce them but how to power them as well.

Its a tricky thing cause its not going to happen with one administration or by slapping a bunch of regulations on industry that cripple business...its going to have to happen with time and innovation...it cant be forced upon people.

Thats all I got haha...post and ghost. bye.

This right here folks is the new climate denial. It doesn't work to say climate change isn't happening so they just spew a bunch of bullshit to make it seem like they have reasonable positions on why we can't address climate change. but it's all bullshit.

[mar123]

This right here folks is the new climate denial. It doesn't work to say climate change isn't happening so they just spew a bunch of bullshit to make it seem like they have reasonable positions on why we can't address climate change. but it's all bullshit.

I'd buy a Tesla X Plaid tomorrow if I could afford it.... but i'd also like one of those new Broncos too.

[Sirshredalot]

I'd buy a Tesla X Plaid tomorrow if I could afford it.... but i'd also like one of those new Broncos too.

Just get a used plug-in Wrangler. There ya go.

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[SumJongGuy]

Maybe we can mine the moon for the resources needed for batteries and other things we're short on here.. Also, maybe we can dump the additional toxic waste we generate here up there. What could possibly go wrong?