Climate Change

[grskier]

Nuclear is vastly more expensive than virtually all renewables. The cheapest power produced is solar and wind.

According to many of the grid operators in TX batteries helped prevent brown puts this summer during the record heat.

And regarding the stupid mining tropes, grid scale batteries are probably not going to be lithium ion. Lithium iron batteries at the consumer scale, are now as cheap as $300 for 1 kWh and can be discharged about 3,000 times or $.10 per kWh. And this is at the consumer retail price.

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/bat...power%20demand.

A bit more installed and operating.

At least here on the project I'm currently managing.

[Core Shot]

10c per kWh on a battery discharge?

Yayyyy winning bigly

[old goat]

XYZ aside, how about this?



https://www.graphyte.com/

A reminder, there is NO single answer, instead many smaller fixes that "could" keep things viable.

I don't get it. Turning plant waste into bricks and burying it certainly beats burning it but that's not the same as pulling CO2 out of the atmosphere--that's done a lot better by letting plants continue to grow. There is a lot of plant waste that needs to be disposed of--rice straw as well as the hulls, logging slash from thinning and commercial logging and this process sounds like a solution for that--at least it prevents the plant matter from turning back into CO2 or methane. It belongs under the category of CO2 emission reduction, not capture.

[LongShortLong]

Nuclear?
Discussion of how it's useful on the near future grid, and who's working on what. By DW, Germany's public media.


Brief discussion of grid stability, but minimal discussion of fast ramping, which as I understand it nuclear can't really do. My guess is short term (<hours) stability will be met by batteries and dispatchable demand response.

Batteries b/c I did some reading and thinking on pumped hydro, and the thought is that battery price is close enough and falling fast, that it'll be cheaper by the time your new hydro plant comes online if battery isn't already cheaper.

[neufox47]

You answered your own question. How many kW are in a MW?

Are you really that dense? You posted that thinking you were right!? The article says current storage with lithium ion batteries is $500 a kWh, that would be $500,000 a mwh. If a homeowner can install a battery for $666 a kWh, why can’t a commercial project? And if commercial can’t, due to a lack of or inverse economies of scale, then every house can have a battery for less than the amount you stated. Which in many ways is more beneficial because you don’t have to transport it.

This article says it’s actually cheaper.

Regardless, at best you are off by 50%.

https://about.bnef.com/blog/top-10-e...rends-in-2023/

[xyz]

Are you really that dense? You posted that thinking you were right!? The article says current storage with lithium ion batteries is $500 a kWh, that would be $500,000 a mwh. If a homeowner can install a battery for $666 a kWh, why can’t a commercial project? And if commercial can’t, due to a lack of or inverse economies of scale, then every house can have a battery for less than the amount you stated. Which in many ways is more beneficial because you don’t have to transport it.

This article says it’s actually cheaper.

Regardless, at best you are off by 50%.

https://about.bnef.com/blog/top-10-e...rends-in-2023/

Good to see your basic math working this time. I called you out because you couldn’t connect the dots between 1000$/kW and a 1M /MW.

I see Tesla selling 0.8MW batteries for 1.2M.
And you can’t just drop a battery on the ground and run away. They have significant installation costs with concrete pads etc. the installed cost is the real cost.

Anyway, we can argue about the cost of batteries all you want but it’s doesn’t make a difference. A full battery storage system even using your numbers is still in the trillions for a single province in Canada.

Once again I’m not saying wind and solar aren’t cheap at producing power. And I’m not saying batteries aren’t capable. I’m only saying that when the cost of storage is taken into account wind and solar are not cheap or possible as a single solution for grid power. Roof top/household solar with storage can make sense for sure.

[oldnew_guy]

Nuclear?
Discussion of how it's useful on the near future grid, and who's working on what. By DW, Germany's public media.


Brief discussion of grid stability, but minimal discussion of fast ramping, which as I understand it nuclear can't really do. My guess is short term (<hours) stability will be met by batteries and dispatchable demand response.

Batteries b/c I did some reading and thinking on pumped hydro, and the thought is that battery price is close enough and falling fast, that it'll be cheaper by the time your new hydro plant comes online if battery isn't already cheaper.

Crazy AUS pumped hydro scheme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_..._Power_Station

Snowy 2.0 Pumped Storage Power Station or Snowy Hydro 2.0 is a pumped-hydro battery megaproject in New South Wales, Australia. The dispatchable generation project connects two existing dams through a 27-kilometre (17 mi) underground tunnel and a new, underground pumped-hydro power station.^[2] Construction began in 2019.^[2] It is expected to supply 2.2 gigawatts of capacity and about 350,000 megawatt hours of large-scale storage to the national electricity market.^[3][4] It is the largest renewable energy project under construction in Australia.^[5]

It is designed for grid stabilization; to be a backup at times of peak demand and for when solar and wind energy are not providing power.^[6] Snowy Hydro acts like a giant battery by absorbing, storing, and dispatching energy.^[3] The battery is designed to operate for up to 175 hours of temporary supply.^[7] It is Australia's largest energy project,^[8] estimated to cost 12 billion Australian dollars. By 2023, AU$4.3 billion had been spent.^[1] The project is led by public company Snowy Hydro Limited.^[8] When complete it is expected to have a large impact on the price and reliability of electric power.^[9]

[muted reborn]

Since you guys are on a nuclear tangent, the nuclear activists got a big setback last week out west.

https://www.nuscalepower.com/en/news...m_medium=email


"The anticipated and feared nuclear renaissance suffered a major blow this week when Oregon-based NuScale and Utah Associated Municipal Power Systems killed plans to construct a small modular nuclear reactor power plant in Idaho. Several years in the making, the project had become too expensive and there were too few subscribers to make it financially viable. "

From The Land Desk

[LongShortLong]

Crazy AUS pumped hydro scheme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_..._Power_Station

Snowy 2.0 Pumped Storage Power Station or Snowy Hydro 2.0 is a pumped-hydro battery megaproject in New South Wales, Australia. The dispatchable generation project connects two existing dams through a 27-kilometre (17 mi) underground tunnel and a new, underground pumped-hydro power station.^[2] Construction began in 2019.^[2] It is expected to supply 2.2 gigawatts of capacity and about 350,000 megawatt hours of large-scale storage to the national electricity market.^[3][4] It is the largest renewable energy project under construction in Australia.^[5]

It is designed for grid stabilization; to be a backup at times of peak demand and for when solar and wind energy are not providing power.^[6] Snowy Hydro acts like a giant battery by absorbing, storing, and dispatching energy.^[3] The battery is designed to operate for up to 175 hours of temporary supply.^[7] It is Australia's largest energy project,^[8] estimated to cost 12 billion Australian dollars. By 2023, AU$4.3 billion had been spent.^[1] The project is led by public company Snowy Hydro Limited.^[8] When complete it is expected to have a large impact on the price and reliability of electric power.^[9]

So, if they run that at capacity for 10 hours a day for a 30 year project life, I get 30*365*10*2.2GW = 240,000GWh. At $12B, that works out to $50k/GWh, or $0.05/kWh. And they started this project with a usable site, and the site already contained both reservoirs. That looks like a good deal for storage.

Using NREL estimates for battery storage, I take the 10hour system with installed cost of $338/kWh. Run that for 365 days for 30 years, and it costs $338/365/30 = $0.03/kWh. And I can site it just about anywhere and don't need to find or build reservoirs.

Obviously systems can't be directly compared, as you'd need to dig into a bunch of details and evaluate assumptions. E.g. I assumed ongoing costs for both systems are small compared to upfront capital. I ignored the storage advantage of the reservoir system - it can run for 175 hours on a full charge and this can be a useful benefit, though it doesn't lower cost per kWh and may raise costs (esp if you have to build the reservoirs). And I assumed minimal degradation over 10,000 battery discharge cycles. The point is battery systems are cost comparable for storage, and are easy to site, permit, and build.

The trouble with all the green tech (nukes included) is it has high upfront capital cost and low ongoing cost. A fossil plant is much cheaper upfront and you mostly pay as you use it for fuel and maintenance. This means your dirty plants tend to give you cheaper kWh's compared to building a nuke and idling it, or building solar/wind plus battery, or nuke + battery to not idle it, etc. Or building pumped storage and discharging it once per year. If you aren't cranking out kWs, the upfront capital is blowing up the per kWh cost. And demand varies throughout the day and throughout the year, and we build for peak demand plus a margin to avoid blackouts. That means most of the day and most of the year is not peak and some plants must go offline.

Looking at available tech, any of it is gonna cost more than dumping CO2 into the atmosphere for free. Usable planet or cheap power, choose one.

[neufox47]

Good to see your basic math working this time. I called you out because you couldn’t connect the dots between 1000$/kW and a 1M /MW.

I was asking you for a source for your price of $1M a mwh. The advertised price of the 4mwh Tesla battery is a little under $2M.


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[xyz]

I was asking you for a source for your price of $1M a mwh. The advertised price of the 4mwh Tesla battery is a little under $2M.


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We are not far apart. With installation costs and exchange rate it’s likely closer to 1M/MWh. I was talking CAD.

They can go weeks with no solar or wind power so weeks of battery storage at a 12,000 MW demand is a non starter.

[WMD]

We are not far apart. With installation costs and exchange rate it’s likely closer to 1M/MWh. I was talking CAD.

They can go weeks with no solar or wind power so weeks of battery storage at a 12,000 MW demand is a non starter.

Lithium ion batteries are not the best solution for long-term intermittency. More transmission can help as most likely the wind is shining and the sun is blowing somewhere. There are other options as well -- it's not rocket surgery. Assuming that lithium ion batteries are the only option is silly.

[NBABUCKS1]

This was an incredible look at how we can decarbonize the grid on the recent 'volts' podcast. It was refreshing to listen to something optimistic for once. Guest a princeton professor.

What? The sun isn't always shining?!



https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/what-the-sun-isnt-always-shining/id1548554104?i=1000633373832


Goes over the millisecond, the second, the minute, the hour, the day, the season to how we can handle baseload, peaks, etc.

Really great look at what is currently happening and what technologies are on the horizon.

The grid is a really amazing thing.

[neufox47]

We are not far apart. With installation costs and exchange rate it’s likely closer to 1M/MWh. I was talking CAD.

They can go weeks with no solar or wind power so weeks of battery storage at a 12,000 MW demand is a non starter.

May as well quote it in Colombian Pesos. Do you know what the world views the $ as meaning? It isn’t a fucking looney.

For the 1,000 time, NO ONE is talking about using lithium ion batteries for long term storage. Does Canada use peaking power plants for weeks at a time? NO! These battery packs are literally named 2hr, 4hr, etc.

Guess what method is used to produce almost 60% of Canada’s power? Hydroelectric. Oh geez, I wonder how Canada could ever have long term storage? That’s a real head scratcher guys. Maybe one day we will come up with a way to store large amounts of potential energy where it can be released at will and converted to electrical current. But until that day I guess it is just coal, tar sands and natural gas. https://natural-resources.canada.ca/...ctricity/7359#

[xyz]

An excellent article about the carbon credit fraud. Don't believe it when some company claims to be carbon neutral.
.)

It’s the perfect scam, hiding behind the guise of saving the planet. And if anyone comes asking questions, just label them a science denying conspiracy theorist.

[Core Shot]

If we could get fusion wow. Electric for the win.
In the mean time, Nat gas is a byproduct of oil wells. If we don’t burn it then they have to flare it. When I fire up my Nat gas furnace I consider it reduce recycle etc.

[neufox47]

https://climate.copernicus.eu/global...trial%20levels.

Earth exceeded 2.0 Celsius above preindustrial levels.

November 2023 is the warmest November on record at .91 Cabove the 1990-2020 average.

Warming is accelerating.


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[SumJongGuy]

There really needs to be big changes in the way we live and HOW/WHERE we live. Centralized workplaces, shopping, eating, etc and better mass transit options.. cities designed so that people prefer mass transit over personal vehicles for most things, etc is where we need to be going..

I think the pandemic really soured a lot of people on the mass transit, more communal living lifestyle..

[xyz]

There really needs to be big changes in the way we live and HOW/WHERE we live. Centralized workplaces, shopping, eating, etc and better mass transit options.. cities designed so that people prefer mass transit over personal vehicles for most things, etc is where we need to be going..

I think the pandemic really soured a lot of people on the mass transit, more communal living lifestyle..

Big changes for how we live, sure. But the billionaires can carry on business as usual.

[SumJongGuy]

About to head up to the mountains for the first turns of the season.. It's going to be 50-60 degrees at 5,000 feet up today. These 20.. 60... 20... 60 cycles are incredibly fucked up. It's pretty clear that ALL places below 10K elevation are toast without massive snowmaking infrastructure pretty soon.

[old goat]

About to head up to the mountains for the first turns of the season.. It's going to be 50-60 degrees at 5,000 feet up today. These 20.. 60... 20... 60 cycles are incredibly fucked up. It's pretty clear that ALL places below 10K elevation are toast without massive snowmaking infrastructure pretty soon.

How does snowmaking work when it’s too warm for natural snow.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

How does snowmaking work when it’s too warm for natural snow.

With favorable dew points and clear skies you can make snow up to 38f


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[2FUNKY]

About to head up to the mountains for the first turns of the season.. It's going to be 50-60 degrees at 5,000 feet up today. These 20.. 60... 20... 60 cycles are incredibly fucked up. It's pretty clear that ALL places below 10K elevation are toast without massive snowmaking infrastructure pretty soon.

How soon? That mantra has been bleated for a long time now. Not sure if you were paying attention but most of the western US set records last year for snow totals. A bunch of those resorts have a base level at or below 6k….


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[alias#?]

Big changes for how we live, sure. But the billionaires can carry on business as usual.

We're all in this together. So be sure to lessen your impact while rich people use the same amount of resources in one hour that I use in a year.

[Bunion 2020]

With favorable dew points and clear skies you can make snow up to 38f


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Sure, you "can", but the costs do not make it pencil out.