Climate Change

[::: :::]

After seeing some of the famous peoples' (very empty) homes in person up in the Yellowstone Club, it's REALLY made it tough for me to take them seriously when I hear them publicly profess their concern for the environment. Looking at YOU, Oprah!!!

I've seen their homes, with snowless driveways and monster mountaintop homes heated by burning through thousands of gallons of propane each month, these gigantic, gorgeous homes that sit mostly empty, and how they fly in on their private jets, then shuttled from the airstrip to their homes in giant SUVs. And THEN watch as they run their mouths at awards ceremonies about how us peons need to do better. Even if their messages are correct, it's still grating coming from these particular folks. They're earth-rapists telling us WE'RE the ones destroying the planet.

is self-awareness not worth something? [serious question] [not directed at you specifically...i would have quoted snowmachine's quote too for ref]

I get the emotional response to the disparate conditions & the presumptive do-as-i-say, but we need to promote the notion of saving energy & low carbon goals. Construction & buildings are def a significant part of the energy/carbon problem...hell, I drive a 3/4 ton crew cab. But until we get agreement to guide the nation in the right direction, we need as many people agreeing on goals/direction first, then implementation will follow. Castigating minor violations in search of perfection is a side show.

I'm at a point where I give a lot of rope to people who at least bother to encourage the right thing (without a weaponized undermining of that message: like Sacklers pretending at health promotion while intentionally hooking as many as possible on opioids). To me, the vestiges of wealth aren't really a weaponized fuckyou as much as the businesses creating wealth in Machiavellian ways on the back of natural resources/energy consumption/toxin disposal/human health/etc

[MontuckyFried]

is self-awareness not worth something? [serious question] [not directed at you specifically...i would have quoted snowmachine's quote too for ref]

I get the emotional response to the disparate conditions & the presumptive do-as-i-say, but we need to promote the notion of saving energy & low carbon goals. Construction & buildings are def a significant part of the energy/carbon problem...hell, I drive a 3/4 ton crew cab. But until we get agreement to guide the nation in the right direction, we need as many people agreeing on goals/direction first, then implementation will follow. Castigating minor violations in search of perfection is a side show.

I'm at a point where I give a lot of rope to people who at least bother to encourage the right thing (without a weaponized undermining of that message: like Sacklers pretending at health promotion while intentionally hooking as many as possible on opioids). To me, the vestiges of wealth aren't really a weaponized fuckyou as much as the businesses creating wealth in Machiavellian ways on the back of natural resources/energy consumption/toxin disposal/human health/etc

I see what you're saying. I should've followed up my post with the people who I DO listen to. I guess my point was that sometimes the messengers suck. I wish total eco-hypocrites would STFU, and instead people who know how to REALLY do better would get more of an audience. I get that they won't because they're not celebrities and all, but that's the problem. Only the biggest hypocrites get the microphone while the true environmentalists out there mostly go unheard.

One of the biggest factors that's actually convinced me to be more environmentally mindful has been meeting people over the years who have done impressive work in their own lives to reduce their impacts to truly amazing levels. Actually spent some time last week with a really interesting guy up in the mountains who lives off-grid. No power/phone service to his spread. An outspoken Democrat and wildlife conservationist (and hunter who only bow hunts with an old school recurve) who walks the walk better than just about anybody I've ever met. I found him to be truly an inspiring character. I've met countless other really interesting people over the years who are also into very organic, natural ways from how they source their foods, to how they run their homes, to how they clean their clothes, and more. And by hanging out with them and learning more, even "ee-vil" old conservative me is into locally sourced foods, sustainable/regenerative farming practices (slaughtering a cow this week in fact!), and big into "green" energy.

I liken these celebs to a child-rapey priest telling you all about how much of a sinner everybody is, versus a humble servant working in a poor African village spreading a message of love and joy. One of those two inspires others to be receptive to their message, the other does not. Also, only one of those grabs the headlines too. Haha.

[Bunion 2020]

Why do you hate capitalism?

For every Oprah at the YC there is at least 1 member who walks the

I got mine fuck the rest or you proles

walk.

[MontuckyFried]

Why do you hate capitalism?

For every Oprah at the YC there is at least 1 member who walks the walk.

LMAO! You get it.

[::: :::]

I see what you're saying. I should've followed up my post with the people who I DO listen to. I guess my point was that sometimes the messengers suck. I wish total eco-hypocrites would STFU, and instead people who know how to REALLY do better would get more of an audience. I get that they won't because they're not celebrities and all, but that's the problem. Only the biggest hypocrites get the microphone while the true environmentalists out there mostly go unheard.

One of the biggest factors that's actually convinced me to be more environmentally mindful has been meeting people over the years who have done impressive work in their own lives to reduce their impacts to truly amazing levels. Actually spent some time last week with a really interesting guy up in the mountains who lives off-grid. No power/phone service to his spread. An outspoken Democrat and wildlife conservationist (and hunter who only bow hunts with an old school recurve) who walks the walk better than just about anybody I've ever met. I found him to be truly an inspiring character. I've met countless other really interesting people over the years who are also into very organic, natural ways from how they source their foods, to how they run their homes, to how they clean their clothes, and more. And by hanging out with them and learning more, even "ee-vil" old conservative me is into locally sourced foods, sustainable/regenerative farming practices (slaughtering a cow this week in fact!), and big into "green" energy.

I liken these celebs to a child-rapey priest telling you all about how much of a sinner everybody is, versus a humble servant working in a poor African village spreading a message of love and joy. One of those two inspires others to be receptive to their message, the other does not. Also, only one of those grabs the headlines too. Haha.

What is it about Oprah that sucks like a child rapist/priest? Her wealth? I'd suggest Oprah has largely promoted humanitarian vibes through her media empire & given your reply above, maybe you'd agree that maybe she's not really the problem despite her celebrity or her large properties.

Poor humble servants are not the only viable conduit to change. Further they may not be public enough to distribute the message.

I'm not defending the wealthy so much as the viability of promoting the message in as many ways as possible

[oldnew_guy]

The people buying off politicians so they can continue business as usual want you to be concerned about your and others carbon footprint on the micro level:

"
Another heralded environmental advertising campaign, launched three decades later in 2000, also won a laudatory advertising award(opens in a new tab), a “Gold Effie.” The campaign impressed upon the American public that a different type of pollution, heat-trapping carbon pollution(opens in a new tab), is also your problem, not the problem of companies drilling deep into the Earth for, and then selling, carbonaceous fuels refined from ancient, decomposed creatures. British Petroleum, the second largest non-state owned oil company in the world, with 18,700 gas and service stations worldwide(opens in a new tab), hired the public relations professionals Ogilvy & Mather to promote the slant that climate change is not the fault of an oil giant, but that of individuals.
It’s here that British Petroleum, or BP, first promoted and soon successfully popularized the term “carbon footprint" in the early aughts. The company unveiled its “carbon footprint calculator” in 2004 so one could assess how their normal daily life — going to work, buying food, and (gasp) traveling — is largely responsible for heating the globe.

A decade and a half later, “carbon footprint” is everywhere. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has a carbon calculator(opens in a new tab). The New York Times has a guide on “How to Reduce Your Carbon Footprint.”(opens in a new tab) Mashable published a story in 2019 entitled “How to shrink your carbon footprint when you travel.”(opens in a new tab) Outdoorsy brands love the term(opens in a new tab).



“This is one of the most successful, deceptive PR campaigns maybe ever,” said Benjamin Franta, who researches law and history of science as a J.D.-Ph.D. student at Stanford Law School. ""

https://mashable.com/feature/carbon-footprint-pr-campaign-sham




The rivers and air got cleaned up when the government passed the Clean Air and Water Acts, not when some people in the suburbs changed their consumption habits.

[old goat]

Driving around Germany for the last couple of weeks, enlarging my carbon footprint, I’m struck by the number of wind turbines, rooftop solar, and solar farms. (I know they still use plenty of petroleum, NG and coal.). Very few e cars.

[skaredshtles]

Driving around Germany for the last couple of weeks, enlarging my carbon footprint, I’m struck by the number of wind turbines, rooftop solar, and solar farms.

That's what I noticed when traveling from Munich <-> Berchtesgaden earlier this summer.

Although I was on the train, 'cause I don't hate the environment.

[MontuckyFried]

What is it about Oprah that sucks like a child rapist/priest? Her wealth?

I'm picking on her specifically because she owns, or at least owned, a sweet pad up in the YC. Now to the public, she owns around 8 mansions around the country, but she definitely has a ton more. Like many celebs, likely in various LLCs and what not. Another famous celeb up there won an Environment Media Award and has been pretty outspoken about climate change and pollution. Pollution, huh? Just talk to Bunion about the Yellowstone Club's effects on the watershed in the area like the effluent issues. He can expand on that topic in great detail.

Oprah has said that the environment is THE most important thing evar to her. Well, that sounds cool and all except that in REAL life, she's raping the earth, way WAY more in a single day than you and I will ever do in a lifetime of driving our cars. THAT'S how she (and the other outspoken celebs up at the YC, Telluride, Aspen, Tahoe, and every other rich mountain town) are the equivalent of a kid-diddling priest wagging their fingers to us about out sin. Said rich celebrities are a bunch of earth-diddlers.

[::: :::]

The people buying off politicians so they can continue business as usual want you to be concerned about your and others carbon footprint on the micro level:

"
Another heralded environmental advertising campaign, launched three decades later in 2000, also won a laudatory advertising award(opens in a new tab), a “Gold Effie.” The campaign impressed upon the American public that a different type of pollution, heat-trapping carbon pollution(opens in a new tab), is also your problem, not the problem of companies drilling deep into the Earth for, and then selling, carbonaceous fuels refined from ancient, decomposed creatures. British Petroleum, the second largest non-state owned oil company in the world, with 18,700 gas and service stations worldwide(opens in a new tab), hired the public relations professionals Ogilvy & Mather to promote the slant that climate change is not the fault of an oil giant, but that of individuals.
It’s here that British Petroleum, or BP, first promoted and soon successfully popularized the term “carbon footprint" in the early aughts. The company unveiled its “carbon footprint calculator” in 2004 so one could assess how their normal daily life — going to work, buying food, and (gasp) traveling — is largely responsible for heating the globe.

A decade and a half later, “carbon footprint” is everywhere. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has a carbon calculator(opens in a new tab). The New York Times has a guide on “How to Reduce Your Carbon Footprint.”(opens in a new tab) Mashable published a story in 2019 entitled “How to shrink your carbon footprint when you travel.”(opens in a new tab) Outdoorsy brands love the term(opens in a new tab).



“This is one of the most successful, deceptive PR campaigns maybe ever,” said Benjamin Franta, who researches law and history of science as a J.D.-Ph.D. student at Stanford Law School. ""

https://mashable.com/feature/carbon-footprint-pr-campaign-sham




The rivers and air got cleaned up when the government passed the Clean Air and Water Acts, not when some people in the suburbs changed their consumption habits.

That's a quality point: forest for the trees on the scales of impact involved [country of USA, are you self-aware?]

(and doesn't discount the notion that now "carbon footprint" is a somewhat generically understood term, even if americans haven't really taken it to heart as a country (vs say Germany who really has)

[ex-powderbroker]

https://www.opb.org/article/2023/09/...ary-of-energy/

I hope all future TGR ski bum road trips utilize EVs only and no climate destroying combustion engines. Would definitely make some of the trip reports entertaining to see people heading to really remote places in the freezing cold driving through feet of snow in EVs.

Electric vehicles can also be part of the problem even as they improve the emissions of ICEs. To alleviate the effects of climate change it will take a major shift far beyond what maggots drive to the hill. I think most people acknowledge this?

[::: :::]

I'm picking on her specifically because she owns, or at least owned, a sweet pad up in the YC. Now to the public, she owns around 8 mansions around the country, but she definitely has a ton more. Like many celebs, likely in various LLCs and what not. Another famous celeb up there won an Environment Media Award and has been pretty outspoken about climate change and pollution. Pollution, huh? Just talk to Bunion about the Yellowstone Club's effects on the watershed in the area like the effluent issues. He can expand on that topic in great detail.

Oprah has said that the environment is THE most important thing evar to her. Well, that sounds cool and all except that in REAL life, she's raping the earth, way WAY more in a single day than you and I will ever do in a lifetime of driving our cars. THAT'S how she (and the other outspoken celebs up at the YC, Telluride, Aspen, Tahoe, and every other rich mountain town) are the equivalent of a kid-diddling priest wagging their fingers to us about out sin. Said rich celebrities are a bunch of earth-diddlers.

i guess i'd like to challenge you to support the raping the earth/kid-diddling part of your assessment, maybe in light of oldnew_guy's post on scale of impact vs greenwashing

[skaredshtles]

Electric vehicles can also be part of the problem even as they improve the emissions of ICEs. To alleviate the effects of climate change it will take a major shift far beyond what maggots drive to the hill. I think most people acknowledge this?

We should start building a proper passenger rail network now. It'll be about 75 years late, but we're going to end up there *anyways* so let's get crackin'...

[MontuckyFried]

We should start building a proper passenger rail network now. It'll be about 75 years late, but we're going to end up there *anyways* so let's get crackin'...

What utterly sucks is that we USED to. Like in the 1800s/early 1900s. Every small town, even in the middle of nowhere, had a rail stop. I don't even know how it's possible, but there was even a Northern Pacific train station in that ghost town of Elkhorn, MT I just visited. There were stations all over the Rockies back in the day.

[skaredshtles]

What utterly sucks is that we USED to. Like in the 1800s/early 1900s. Every small town, even in the middle of nowhere, had a rail stop. I don't even know how it's possible, but there was even a Northern Pacific train station in that ghost town of Elkhorn, MT I just visited. There were stations all over the Rockies back in the day.

This is what kills me about the "it can't work here" crowd. Fuck off, it *can* work here, we just need to make it happen.

[PB]

Yeah, that's a HUGE uphill battle. CA can't even get a single track super train system built without wailing and hair pulling.
Not that they picked the right location, mind you.

[bodywhomper]

Which California HSR route alternative were you hoping for ?

[PB]

It's been in limbo for so long, I've kind of forgotten the options. I just recall thinking they could have set it up to include more major population centers e.g. the Bay Area ..... but I may be mis-membering.

[MontuckyFried]

This is what kills me about the "it can't work here" crowd. Fuck off, it *can* work here, we just need to make it happen.

SERIOUSLY!!! Absolutely ticks me off. Especially after enjoying the rail travel in Europe and Japan. Some serious bullcrap, buuuuuuut.....

Yeah, that's a HUGE uphill battle. CA can't even get a single track super train system built without wailing and hair pulling.

Herein lies the problem. That is a prime example of the modern challenges we're up against in kicking off passenger rail again in the US. We have too many assholes trying to get a piece of dat sweet, sweet government pie. Between lawyers, crony construction contractors, burdensome red tape, it's become REALLY hard to get it done. China has done some seriously impressive high speed work lately, but they have the luxury of being able to tell its citizens to GTFO the way cuz we're laying track there whether you like it or not. I've seen the CA HSR get opposition from so many angles that it's struggled to build anything fast.

In the 1800s, the US had the concept of Manifest Destiny to push forth our Westward Expansion. When, even more hardcore than the Chinese today, the government basically told the Natives to GTFO the way cuz those tracks getting laid no matter what. I rip on cronyism now, but it's actually nothing new. In my research for work in MT, I've read many of the original document where various US Presidents hooked up the railroad companies with vast swaths of land (literally like 1/2 of the territory) and what would happen is if those lands got unused for rail, they'd have to convey the lands back to the US or the State depending on location. BUUUUUT then the RR got to hang on to the mineral rights, so they got to drill for oil or mine. A pretty controversial topic at the time that those lands came intact with the mineral rights to begin with.

See: The Pacific Railroad Act of 1862, in which around 130 million acres were awarded to the rail companies. Just look into the history of the Rockefellers, Standard Oil (Mobil/Exxon/Chevron/etc), Union Pacific, BNSF, the list goes on. It's all intertwined, and the right people got mega mega wealthy over it and still are. Still, much as I hate to say it, THAT'S what it took for our vast rail network to happen and it's what it'd take to make it happen again. A combination of wild grants and a new "Westward Expansion" mentality. Except back then it didn't bankrupt the country. Now it prolly would. Unless we go full authoritarian to make it happen and just accept the cronyism for what it is. I feel conflicted.

Back then, they got it done for around 60 million (equivalent of about 1.2 billion today). The CA HSR ALONE is estimated to be around 88-128 billion. So like 100x the cost of the transcontinental railroad system that covered the entire goddam country, and yeah, that's taking inflation into account. How can we overcome that? I honestly don't know.

For better or worse, it really was a remarkable project! Absolutely changed the course of history for the United States' place in the world.

[bodywhomper]

It's been in limbo for so long, I've kind of forgotten the options. I just recall thinking they could have set it up to include more major population centers e.g. the Bay Area ..... but I may be mis-membering.

I stopped paying attention, too. I believe there was a spur planned to enter the Bay Area via Pacheco Pass.

[Bunion 2020]

Just talk to Bunion about the Yellowstone Club's effects on the watershed in the area like the effluent issues. He can expand on that topic in great detail.

I don't think you would like my viewpoint. The majority of homes at the YC are on a central sewer treatment system and the effluent is highly treated prior to being used to irrigate or now be converted into man made snow. I think the effects on the Gallatin stem from a leaky sewer system in Big Sky along with to damn many old drain fields that are no longer effective that are leaching out nutrients into the groundwater.

It has been an odd but nice summer with only about 3 weeks of hot temperatures and several storm cycles that brought rain in quantity. No algae bloom in the usual places.

[MontuckyFried]

I don't think you would like my viewpoint. The majority of homes at the YC are on a central sewer treatment system and the effluent is highly treated prior to being used to irrigate or now be converted into man made snow. I think the effects on the Gallatin stem from a leaky sewer system in Big Sky along with to damn many old drain fields that are no longer effective that are leaching out nutrients into the groundwater.

It has been an odd but nice summer with only about 3 weeks of hot temperatures and several storm cycles that brought rain in quantity. No algae bloom in the usual places.

I have no problem with your viewpoint! That's why I deferred to your expertise on the matter. It was a hot topic when I was there due to that big leak they had, but glad they got it figured out. Event I was thinking about was when this happened, which of course made their whole thing controversial:

Yellowstone Club wastewater pipe breaks - Effluent from 35-million-gallon wastewater pond leaking into Gallatin fork
https://www.explorebigsky.com/yellow...e-breaks/17807

[skaredshtles]

How can we overcome that? I honestly don't know.

Call it "National Defense" and get fuckin' crackin' on it. The whole "it's too expensive and we'll never be able to do it" is a goddam cop out. If ITALY, for fuck's sake, can have a semi-functional rail system, it's a goddam embarrassment that we "can't."

[Bunion 2020]

Thanks, I appreciate that. Yeah, that was a contractor failure made worse by weather and some missed decisions. And not to defend anyone but that failure could have been so much worse and what was discharged while not drinkable was also not shit water. Since then LML has invested heavily in water treatment and that includes disposal of treated water like what got away. I believe plans call for spray irrigation in selected areas around 5 months out of the year and make snow with it for 4 months or so in early winter. Be interesting to see if Big Sky follows suit.
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I was posting when you wrote this. NO SHIT..... fucking Italy.....

Call it "National Defense" and get fuckin' crackin' on it. The whole "it's too expensive and we'll never be able to do it" is a goddam cop out. If ITALY, for fuck's sake, can have a semi-functional rail system, it's a goddam embarrassment that we "can't."

Can you imagine the job creation?

[MontuckyFried]

Call it "National Defense" and get fuckin' crackin' on it. The whole "it's too expensive and we'll never be able to do it" is a goddam cop out. If ITALY, for fuck's sake, can have a semi-functional rail system, it's a goddam embarrassment that we "can't."

For real!!! Might be just the ticket to cut some of that pesky red tape. Worked for the "Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways" aka the Interstate Highway System.