Anyone have anything they'd like to rant about?

[toast2266]

Oh thank God. This discussion again. Sprockets hasn't had a pointless argument in like 72 hours. I was getting anxious.

Anyways, context matters. People who refuse to yield on multi use trails are assholes. People who rigidly adhere to the "rules of the trail" are also assholes.

The answer, as always, is more directional trails.

[jackstraw]

Oh thank God. This discussion again. Sprockets hasn't had a pointless argument in like 72 hours. I was getting anxious.

I thought I had skipped back 30, 40, or whatever pages by accident when I opened this thread up.

[skaredshtles]

<snip>
The answer, as always, is more directional trails.

This is *THE* answer. Sadly... some public land mgmt agencies are super-slow to get on board with this.

Hell - maybe EVERY agency is super-slow to get on board with this...

[skaredshtles]

I thought I had skipped back 30, 40, or whatever pages by accident when I opened this thread up.

We're re-hashing it for the benefit of all the new users who are involved in the thread now...

[Dantheman]

The answer, as always, is more directional trails.

I used to believe this, but even that solution can turn into an epic shitshow. See today's activity in the Wasatch thread for details.

[J. Barron DeJong]

We're re-hashing it for the benefit of all the new users who are involved in the thread now...

I’m probably the newest one here and have already witnessed this debate, so please don’t feel the need to rehash it purely for my benefit.

[skaredshtles]

I used to believe this, but even that solution can turn into an epic shitshow. See today's activity in the Wasatch thread for details.

[rideit]

Yeah, every interaction is conditional, and dependent on the circumstances.
Maybe ebikes need to have louder braaaping sounds?
I dunno, it’s all so vague.

[jhyatt]

When I am descending, do I need to stop for an E bike on the up? When does an E bike become a motorcycle. Some of them seem to have 4' tires and bigger suspension than most of my motorcycles from the early 80's.

Not really a rant, but a question.

"I brake for fat chicks" and fat/old dudes on ebikes.

[bagtagley]

We're re-hashing it for the benefit of all the new users who are involved in the thread now...

Then, this is my cue to point out the fact that this etiquette people get so worked up about is virtually nonexistent here and in other places I’ve lived. It seems to be a product of crowded trails and a preponderance of entitled aholes, both of which make it difficult for kindness and common sense to prevail.

[One (+) Sentence]

It’s amazing how far a quick smile and “hello” go out on the trail. And I don’t even care what clothes other people are wearing or what kind of bike they have. Sacramento Kings basketball shorts and an Amazon e-bike? No worries, the easiest way to minimize my interaction with you is just to be nice.

Yeah, I remember the ‘90s when me and closest friends were the only mountain bikers in the world too. Times change...

[HankScorpio]

I'm on my third Shimano 12 speed cassette in 12 months because they're made from Ritz crackers. I wish they sold these in 6 packs.

[toast2266]

I used to believe this, but even that solution can turn into an epic shitshow. See today's activity in the Wasatch thread for details.

I don't really know those trails, but my impression is that they're trying to cram a whole lot of users into a modest number of trails without building that much more to accommodate the crowds. And it kinda sounds like they don't really have a history of building good trails, so people aren't excited about the prospect of building directional replacements for old favorites. Which makes sense - a lot of trails take years of erosion to become interesting - it's not easy to build worthwhile new tech trails if the soils / topography aren't all that conducive to it.

Anyways, I would argue that directional trails are still a substantial part of the solution, but there's also going to need to be an appropriate quantity of well built trail, which isn't an easy accomplishment.

[Dantheman]

I don't really know those trails, but my impression is that they're trying to cram a whole lot of users into a modest number of trails without building that much more to accommodate the crowds. And it kinda sounds like they don't really have a history of building good trails, so people aren't excited about the prospect of building directional replacements for old favorites. Which makes sense - a lot of trails take years of erosion to become interesting - it's not easy to build worthwhile new tech trails if the soils / topography aren't all that conducive to it.

Anyways, I would argue that directional trails are still a substantial part of the solution, but there's also going to need to be an appropriate quantity of well built trail, which isn't an easy accomplishment.

While I haven't ridden them yet, everybody seems to agree that the new downhill bike-only trails are very meh but worth it to not have to worry about running people over. The people bitching the most are the crusty old hikers who are complaining that the new multi-use trails, which have no downhill bike traffic, aren't good hiking trails. I absolutely agree that it's a substantial part of the solution, but it's not a panacea, especially when the cranky fun-hating upper crust types that populate the Ave's are involved.

[toast2266]

While I haven't ridden them yet, everybody seems to agree that the new downhill bike-only trails are very meh but worth it to not have to worry about running people over. The people bitching the most are the crusty old hikers who are complaining that the new multi-use trails, which have no downhill bike traffic, aren't good hiking trails. I absolutely agree that it's a substantial part of the solution, but it's not a panacea, especially when the cranky fun-hating upper crust types that populate the Ave's are involved.

The crusty old hiker crowd will bitch no matter what happens. It's what they do.

Multi use trail with bikes? I thought these were hiking trails! Bikes are a menace and they're ruining my solitude!
Build bike only trails to solve ^^^? How come the bikers get new trails built for them!? Why are they so special!?
Build hiker only trails to solve ^^^? These trails don't have a natural aesthetic! And they don't follow the exact route that I've become accustomed to!
Ban bikes from the trails? These trails are getting overgrown and don't get enough maintenance!

And to be fair, the crusty old biker crowd (of which I'm a member) isn't much better. A good land manager should be reasonably adept at anticipating and deflecting these inevitable complaints.

[Dantheman]

Multi use trail with bikes? I thought these were hiking trails! Bikes are a menace and they're ruining my solitude!
Build bike only trails to solve ^^^? How come the bikers get new trails built for them!? Why are they so special!?
Build hiker only trails to solve ^^^? These trails don't have a natural aesthetic! And they don't follow the exact route that I've become accustomed to!
Ban bikes from the trails? These trails are getting overgrown and don't get enough maintenance!

You forgot: "No, I didn't review the Master Plan that was revised half a dozen times or submit comments during the multi-year public comment period, but I'm angry now!"

[snowaddict91]

The crusty old hiker crowd will bitch no matter what happens. It's what they do.

Multi use trail with bikes? I thought these were hiking trails! Bikes are a menace and they're ruining my solitude!
Build bike only trails to solve ^^^? How come the bikers get new trails built for them!? Why are they so special!?
Build hiker only trails to solve ^^^? These trails don't have a natural aesthetic! And they don't follow the exact route that I've become accustomed to!
Ban bikes from the trails? These trails are getting overgrown and don't get enough maintenance!

And to be fair, the crusty old biker crowd (of which I'm a member) isn't much better. A good land manager should be reasonably adept at anticipating and deflecting these inevitable complaints.

This might be the best summary of what seems to be happening.

[bagtagley]

The crusty old hiker crowd will bitch no matter what happens. It's what they do.

Multi use trail with bikes? I thought these were hiking trails! Bikes are a menace and they're ruining my solitude!
Build bike only trails to solve ^^^? How come the bikers get new trails built for them!? Why are they so special!?
Build hiker only trails to solve ^^^? These trails don't have a natural aesthetic! And they don't follow the exact route that I've become accustomed to!
Ban bikes from the trails? These trails are getting overgrown and don't get enough maintenance!

And to be fair, the crusty old biker crowd (of which I'm a member) isn't much better. A good land manager should be reasonably adept at anticipating and deflecting these inevitable complaints.

I just got a little PTSD reading that.

[simple]

Yeah it is far too accurate. Since the entitlement of the users is so easily predictable they should make maps based on AI learning algorithms. Just let the computer figure it out.

[grskier]

Ha, welcome to my world of working in the public for the public.

[Wes Mantooth]

It’s amazing how far a quick smile and “hello” go out on the trail. And I don’t even care what clothes other people are wearing or what kind of bike they have. Sacramento Kings basketball shorts and an Amazon e-bike? No worries, the easiest way to minimize my interaction with you is just to be nice.

Yeah, I remember the ‘90s when me and closest friends were the only mountain bikers in the world too. Times change...

I have found this to be true. If I yield for you I'll give you a smile and say enjoy the ride. If you yield for me I'll thank you and let you know if anyone's behind me. Seems to minimize saltiness from my experience, even with people who clearly are gearing up to bitch you out

Dogs are the biggest assholes about yielding, especially when you're climbing techy shit. There's a trail around here that's a big challenge to clean bottom to top without putting a foot down and before I got it for the first time I was thwarted numerous times by somebody's dog standing in the middle of a rock garden staring at me. They clearly haven't read the etiquette signs at the bottom

[grskier]

I have found this to be true. If I yield for you I'll give you a smile and say enjoy the ride. If you yield for me I'll thank you and let you know if anyone's behind me. Seems to minimize saltiness from my experience, even with people who clearly are gearing up to bitch you out

Dogs are the biggest assholes about yielding, especially when you're climbing techy shit. There's a trail around here that's a big challenge to clean bottom to top without putting a foot down and before I got it for the first time I was thwarted numerous times by somebody's dog standing in the middle of a rock garden staring at me. They clearly haven't read the etiquette signs at the bottom

That's why I don't ride the red dirt until fall or early season. fall I'm fit and the joeys are fewer, spring I'm looking for a break because I'm not fit.

[Boissal]

Dogs are the biggest assholes about yielding, especially when you're climbing techy shit. There's a trail around here that's a big challenge to clean bottom to top without putting a foot down and before I got it for the first time I was thwarted numerous times by somebody's dog standing in the middle of a rock garden staring at me. They clearly haven't read the etiquette signs at the bottom

Damn dogs and their poor reading skills!
A couple weeks ago on Shoreline (of course) I came up behind a lady who was on the phone taking up the whole trail. I'm rarely in a rush so I slowed down and told her I'd sneak around her when she got to a good spot. That scared the shit out of her since she was completely tuned into her call and she got all huffy and puffy. There was no point in arguing with her so I kept going. I made it 10' and a mid-size dog appeared out of the brush and ran at me full speed. Uh oh. It came right up behind me barking and snarling and I figured I was about to get bit so I got out of the saddle and took off but he stayed with me. I yelled at it as loud as I could a couple times then turned to see if it had stopped then noticed the lady was now chasing us and screaming at the top of her lungs. I got to a climb and figured I was done for so I got off the bike ready to kick... and realized the dog was an excited puppy with poor training. He jumped on me, damn near knocked me over, and when the lady finally arrived I was sitting off the trail play fighting the little asshole. Everyone was relived, I apologized for scaring her and yelling at her dog, she apologized for his poor training, and we each went on our way.

[tgapp]

Damn dogs and their poor reading skills!
A couple weeks ago on Shoreline (of course) I came up behind a lady who was on the phone taking up the whole trail. I'm rarely in a rush so I slowed down and told her I'd sneak around her when she got to a good spot. That scared the shit out of her since she was completely tuned into her call and she got all huffy and puffy. There was no point in arguing with her so I kept going. I made it 10' and a mid-size dog appeared out of the brush and ran at me full speed. Uh oh. It came right up behind me barking and snarling and I figured I was about to get bit so I got out of the saddle and took off but he stayed with me. I yelled at it as loud as I could a couple times then turned to see if it had stopped then noticed the lady was now chasing us and screaming at the top of her lungs. I got to a climb and figured I was done for so I got off the bike ready to kick... and realized the dog was an excited puppy with poor training. He jumped on me, damn near knocked me over, and when the lady finally arrived I was sitting off the trail play fighting the little asshole. Everyone was relived, I apologized for scaring her and yelling at her dog, she apologized for his poor training, and we each went on our way.

heh, that ended a lot better than it could have.

good for you, I still have no patience for aggressive "friendly" dogs, puppies or not. it shouldn't be your responsibility to read the dogs intent; if a dog charges me, I get ready to kick it. too many close calls with street dogs in other parts of the world.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

[Boissal]

heh, that ended a lot better than it could have.

good for you, I still have no patience for aggressive "friendly" dogs, puppies or not. it shouldn't be your responsibility to read the dogs intent; if a dog charges me, I get ready to kick it. too many close calls with street dogs in other parts of the world.

I was definitely annoyed but it ended very well. In general I don't like dogs getting all up in my face, friendly or not, but that was a perfect example of cohabitation on Shoreline that could have gone way poorly but turned out well cause nobody got too riled up over it.

I have been bitten up there (hiking) and the owner was mortified. I didn't feel the need to escalate things since the skin wasn't broken. On the other hand I had a lady call animal control on me because I was hiking with a pack of 4 old lady labs (all fosters) that were "aggressive and threatening" while off leash. The youngest one was 9, you can imagine how rowdy she was. Animal control was at the trailhead, took one look at the geriatric pack of non-murderous canines, told me to put them on leash, and drove off.

You should go ride the Coyote loop above Heber, some very kickable dogs haunt the place...