Too Many Tourists In Colorado

[doebedoe]

The successful ones do. How many did it take before the location was successful? Most restaurants out here are owned by restaurant groups. People with loads of cash (no property loans and can remodel to exactly what they want and bring in top talenf) and tons experience in building successful restaurants. To do that, you need a decent amount of money and look at it as a capital investment that you'll make back out when you sell. Its not for the random person dropping into the industry.

Its a terrible choice unless your its solely a capital investment, and if thats what you're doing, rental properties are way more lucrative for the layperson.

Thread drift....

But -- you're acting like it is impossible unless you're loaded. It's not. Just like there are indy ski makers that go to shit in a few years, there are others that are making a good living (Moment, Praxis, On3p etc). There are just tons more visible restaurant failures because there are more people interested in doing it. People overestimate their skills, make bad decisions, suck at reading the market or don't know how to run a restaurant. My neighborhood place is a fine example, and I know owners of at least 2 other similar places in Denver (i.e. they read the market well). Two first time owners: one runs front of house, one the back. $10-20 entrees. Spent a lot of time in the industry before owning. Took a loan out to buy and ready the place. Four years later they are opening another place, have paid off the loan to buy, and both saved enough to buy nice homes in Denver. They aren't getting wealthy like the big restaurant groups, but they make well above what it takes to live a upper-middle class life, and have assets. And most important to me--they have decent food and a lovely staff that doesn't turn over like most the industry.

But they work way more hours than any ski bum with dreams of pow days would be willing to.

[dunfree]

I think if the residents of the tourist towns did a better job communicating the pride we have in our communities and that we are just regular people living pretty regular lives, I think the visitors would have a little better respect and understanding of the concept that this pretty little valley is actually someones home.

There's plenty of pride communicated in the lives, it probably exceeds what many people call "pride. There's not much communication of "regular", because there's lots of "we're not regular, we're better than you". There's like 25 posts in a row doing that. Why you give a fuck about what Benny says, or what people living their own lives do is baffling. Yeah, there are people living on the east coast, doing their own thing. Unless you want to turn your "little valley" into a suburban shithole, be happy they do.

[Name Redacted]

Jezus! Running a restaurant isn't rocket science. I know plenty of folks who do it well and without a group of investors. And to stay on topic, the tourism boom in CO is definitely helping most restaurants in our area.

[Danno]

I didn't think it was possible for Benny to seem more clueless, and to be more offensive in being so, than he usually is. But apparently it was possible.

[Benny Profane]

I know, thanks. I landed on my ass in butter.

And the rest of us are paying for it with our tax dollars.

Still waiting for the numbers.

[Lindahl]

Thread drift....

But -- you're acting like it is impossible unless you're loaded. It's not. Just like there are indy ski makers that go to shit in a few years, there are others that are making a good living (Moment, Praxis, On3p etc). There are just tons more visible restaurant failures because there are more people interested in doing it. People overestimate their skills, make bad decisions, suck at reading the market or don't know how to run a restaurant. My neighborhood place is a fine example, and I know owners of at least 2 other similar places in Denver (i.e. they read the market well). Two first time owners: one runs front of house, one the back. $10-20 entrees. Spent a lot of time in the industry before owning. Took a loan out to buy and ready the place. Four years later they are opening another place, have paid off the loan to buy, and both saved enough to buy nice homes in Denver. They aren't getting wealthy like the big restaurant groups, but they make well above what it takes to live a upper-middle class life, and have assets. And most important to me--they have decent food and a lovely staff that doesn't turn over like most the industry.

But they work way more hours than any ski bum with dreams of pow days would be willing to.

Its different in a ski town than in the city - just to name one, staffing challenges are incredibly difficult and stressful. And no, its not impossible, its really damn hard and you need some luck on your side. Theres way easier ways to live in a mountain community. I've been there before (exgirlfriend tried it for 3 years and had to get out - just wasn't as viable as other options - especially with the hours - despite having a pretty damn good understanding of the market, restaurants and deep roots in the town).

Like I said, its like trying to make money in the ski industry. I know people that have, but a lot more that haven't.

[Meadow Skipper]

I always said, if you want to do OK up here, stop drinking every night, don't show up to work high, be on time, and do more than the minimum. If you can add some skill/education to that mix, you can do well in the high country, and you can have 70-100 day seasons. Hey, but all those things are easier said than done and you have to realize some years you are going to have to drive a long way to work and that you and your wife are going to have a 40 year old 1000sqft 2br condo instead of the 8 year old 3000sqft 4 bedroom house in the burbs of Phoenix or Charleston.

Thread drift....

But -- you're acting like it is impossible unless you're loaded. It's not. Just like there are indy ski makers that go to shit in a few years, there are others that are making a good living (Moment, Praxis, On3p etc). There are just tons more visible restaurant failures because there are more people interested in doing it. People overestimate their skills, make bad decisions, suck at reading the market or don't know how to run a restaurant. My neighborhood place is a fine example, and I know owners of at least 2 other similar places in Denver (i.e. they read the market well). Two first time owners: one runs front of house, one the back. $10-20 entrees. Spent a lot of time in the industry before owning. Took a loan out to buy and ready the place. Four years later they are opening another place, have paid off the loan to buy, and both saved enough to buy nice homes in Denver. They aren't getting wealthy like the big restaurant groups, but they make well above what it takes to live a upper-middle class life, and have assets. And most important to me--they have decent food and a lovely staff that doesn't turn over like most the industry.

But they work way more hours than any ski bum with dreams of pow days would be willing to.

2X QFT how to make a living in the high country.

[Sirshredalot]

I hear ya, my household certainly reflects that gap. What kind of govt work did you leave to do fixed income sales? PM or don't respond if you prefer not to share, just curious.

PM incoming.

[Benny Profane]

Jezus! Running a restaurant isn't rocket science. I know plenty of folks who do it well and without a group of investors. And to stay on topic, the tourism boom in CO is definitely helping most restaurants in our area.

For fucks sake. Is everyone a trustie here? I would think that it would be common knowledge among skiers how hard restaraunts are to own. Oh, yeah, banks are tripping over each other to lend to a sector that has, what, a 90% failure rate year one? Then there's the hours. Maybe 10-12 six to maybe seven days a week, if you cook. Oh, sure, you could hire a manager or two and staff. Then it will run itself, right, while you slay pow? Oh, no, they won't pilfer the liquor stock or feed their friends. No way!

You people are something, really. You can't hide your cluelessness. Does anybody have a real job?

[Danno]

And FTR, I live in a place that is more expensive than many mountain towns, so I certainly understand how hard it can be. And I left a mountain town many years ago, because I was struggling and realized that I needed to figure something out, because at that rate I was never going to own a home. But I went to grad school, bought a house, and struggle in this expensive town. And I most certainly could make it in a mountain town now, if I wanted to go that route. But the kind of work I would have to do there doesn't appeal to me so much, and I have settled in to my life here.

But I know many people who make it work. The 30-somethings and older in those towns are generally NOT drunks and ski bums like Benny seems to think, bumping chairs and scraping paycheck to paycheck. Generally, the older set in mountain communities are the people who have figured it out, who have cobbled something together that makes it work. There are govt jobs, professional jobs, trades, etc, that pay enough to get by, provide insurance and some security, etc. And maybe you can't afford the pimp slopeside house, maybe you make do with the run down ranch 20 minutes away, but you make it work.

[doebedoe]

And the rest of us are paying for it with our tax dollars.

Still waiting for the numbers.

Geebus. Chill with the fucking numbers thing. You can make 60-100K doing middle class jobs (resort, accountant, real estate, tourist-related, etc etc etc) if you have some skills. Two people can live in a mountain town, save for retirement. If Meadow was in two-digit GS scale that is no less than 60K in CO. Probably more in the 70-80K range once you talk about seniority 32-years brings plus overtime. Google is not fucking hard bro even for an old fuck like you.

Believe it or fucking not, 60K is greater than the median HOUSEHOLD income in the USA. Two people making that puts you into comfortably middle class -- and in the 85% nationwide. You can live on that in the mountains, ski a shit ton, and not become an old-bitter wish-I-had.

[Danno]

You people are something, really. You can't hide your cluelessness. Does anybody have a real job?

Oh, the ironing.

[Meadow Skipper]

And the rest of us are paying for it with our tax dollars.

Yeah, but look at what you got for it. Total bargain, considering. And yeah, I pay taxes too - a lot more since I paid off my mortgage.

Still waiting for the numbers.

Did you look up the GS pay scale yet, dumbass? Here, let me help your lame ass:
https://www.federalpay.org/gs/2016/newmexico

[PNWbrit]

Does anybody have a real job?

A real job? One that by your own admission you did for twenty years while wanting to move to somewhere where you wanted to live only then to retire but even then only visit where you'd wanted to live all along on vacation once a year.... while spending the rest of your retirement telling everyone else how they're doing it wrong... all from the comfort of where you spent twenty years not wanting to be anyway.

That kind of real job?

[Name Redacted]

For fucks sake. Is everyone a trustie here? I would think that it would be common knowledge among skiers how hard restaraunts are to own. Oh, yeah, banks are tripping over each other to lend to a sector that has, what, a 90% failure rate year one? Then there's the hours. Maybe 10-12 six to maybe seven days a week, if you cook. Oh, sure, you could hire a manager or two and staff. Then it will run itself, right, while you slay pow? Oh, no, they won't pilfer the liquor stock or feed their friends. No way!

You people are something, really. You can't hide your cluelessness. Does anybody have a real job?

No one can open a sucessful restaurant without a trust fund, just like no one can live in a mountain town without a trust fund. Funny how hard you try to tell people what they can't do while they are doing it, all while you aren't doing shit.

[babybear]

I'll chime in yet again that I have a real job and I also live in a mtn town with no parental help (in fact I am the opposite of a trustie as I have to help my mom with her funds, bought her car for her etc.)
But I must be lying bc it can't happen

[AdironRider]

Apparently Benny is just waiting for the numbers to prove his point, not the actual numbers that hurt it.

[goldenboy]

I see people do it the hard way too: 25 years of patrolling/construction/odd jobs can get you in a good spot if you are tight with the cash.

There are people here (and I'm sure most any other mountain town) who bought a home in the 80's for like 100K that are going to cash out big time one of these days when they're ready to retire. Ski patrolling and skiing 100+ days a year won't treat them too bad in the end.

[Meadow Skipper]

I'll chime in yet again that I have a real job and I also live in a mtn town with no parental help (in fact I am the opposite of a trustie as I have to help my mom with her funds, bought her car for her etc.)
But I must be lying bc it can't happen

baby bear =

[fastfred]

Go ahead man. Do the core local thing, no savings, no insurance, crappy pay, whatever. Be macho about it. Chicks really dig 50 year old drunks with bad knees and shoulders and no money.

bunny please call me when you get back to summit county this winter we need to hang out and talk so I can show you what life is really like

sure I've got two fifty something alcoholic nieghbors who drink day and nite been here since they were twenty, they pop every pill imaginable to keep their cholesteral bad blood pressure and many other issues at bay, but there are just as many fuck ups like them all across this great country

SO YOU ARE RIGHT!

your prolly right about me too, BUT I"M MACHO ABOUT IT BRO, I can only type with so many fingers cause I'm missing some, got a bad knee, I don't have dick to my name, every time I goto the vail valley surgery center, I can't get over how FUCKING NICE the place is, it's like a five star hotel nice! I leave every time babbling to the hot nurses that I love this place and can't wait to come back. Cause I always know I'm one step away from doing something stupid and getting hurt

I've made so many bad decisions in life it's not even funny, but hey guys like you keep me in check

so tonight while I'm sitting down to have my twin lobster dinner I'll think of you and how bad you suck at road riding and skiing and how awesome my life really is

[AdironRider]

There are people here (and I'm sure most any other mountain town) who bought a home in the 80's for like 100K that are going to cash out big time one of these days when they're ready to retire. Ski patrolling and skiing 100+ days a year won't treat them too bad in the end.

I feel like it is all relative. It was probably expensive for them at the time.

[Benny Profane]

Geebus. Chill with the fucking numbers thing. You can make 60-100K doing middle class jobs (resort, accountant, real estate, tourist-related, etc etc etc) if you have some skills. Two people can live in a mountain town, save for retirement. If Meadow was in two-digit GS scale that is no less than 60K in CO. Probably more in the 70-80K range once you talk about seniority 32-years brings plus overtime. Google is not fucking hard bro even for an old fuck like you.

Believe it or fucking not, 60K is greater than the median HOUSEHOLD income in the USA. Two people making that puts you into comfortably middle class -- and in the 85% nationwide. You can live on that in the mountains, ski a shit ton, and not become an old-bitter wish-I-had.

Ok then, fine. Finally, some numbers. Now, hers numbers back. A home in high country, how much? A crappy old eighties two bedroom condo with high common fees within decent driving distance to good skiing and, well, civilization? Let's start at about 350,000, to be kind, maybe 400,000. A house? Oh boy, in most decent ski towns that you would actually want to live, unless, of course, you're happy with the female sheep out in the back yard, oh, well, half million for crap, and then work your way up? Sure, there's fixer uppers, if you like to fixer upper all the time. Good luck with that. Ok, so, let's settle at around 500,000 for a home. Not even going near rent, because we started this whole thing about being a poor 50 year old, right? You don't want to be in the insane mountain rental market as a poor, broken down 50 year old. Not good. So, that's a big nut to cover, a half mil house. Needs at least 50 grand to start, lots monthly for the loan and taxes and upkeep. Winter is hard on homes. Then there's the good car you're going to need, pretty new, because beaters are almost dangerous in the mountains. You can die broken down somewhere. Ok, then there's the skis and clothes and tickets and all the others shit you need to ski, because, hell, that's why you're there, right? That shit isn't cheap. Then there's the usual stuff. Like, food. Maybe cable. Gotta have cable. You won't be out partying every night. Gotta pay the mortgage, right? Shots are expensive.

So, you tell me. Does 60 grand cover that? 100 grand? Remember the IRS, dudes, they're first in line.

Of course it doesn't.

Because, if you survive and pay off the house, you won't have Jack when you're old, except for a crappy old house, like the rest of America right now. So, you wanna be 65, poor, still working, in a place made for young people and tourists? No.

[hawkgt]

get facts benny!!

Edit:
ops, first one posted was wrong one, that was 1/4 share at $145k. wrong copy and paste

This is more real

http://www.realtor.com/realestateand...2_M25722-66564

older home but no worse than what I started with in the burbs and fixed up nicely over the years and have a ton of equity.
http://www.realtor.com/realestateand...2_M25951-81970

[hatchgreenchile]

You people are something, really. You can't hide your cluelessness. Does anybody have a real job?

Oh please, if someone admitted to "real employment" you'd pounce at the opportunity to label them a cube monkey.

Nobody is good enough for your standards

[Foggy_Goggles]

Here is an example of what I mean when I feel that the tax revenue generated by tourists and second home owners generally benefits tourists and second home owners

http://www.skyhidailynews.com/news/a...ction-updates/

These two projects are generally opposed by full time residents of Winter Park. There is a perfectly viable Safeway three miles down the road. By admission, it's primary purpose is to be a catalyst for development which places an increasing burden on publicly funded infrastructure. I'd love to see some type of analysis on the net tax benefit.

Back to transportation. What is a good example of a mountain community that has a viable public transportation system? Not just a mechanism to get wallets to ticket windows but one that allows a resident to get to and from work reasonably efficiently. Steamboat and the RFV seems pretty good put I'd like the opinion of someone that actually lives there.

Benny, have you admitted that you have no idea about what you are talking about or are you still waiting for Meadow Skipper's audited financials.