Manual vs auto trannys in the snow

[Alkasquawlik]

Fix Or Repair Daily


basom- Autohomophobia - The new racism.

[Arty50]

I'm going to have to disagree with most everyone in this thead. I really don't think it matters anymore, nor has it for awhile. It's just personal preference...or dick waving. As mentioned before, rock crawlers have moved over to ATs. For a long time, some people disdained ATs because they weren't core or they lacked the pure driving experience of a MT. And in a lot of cases, ATs weren't stout enough for the application. The latter has changed dramatically.

I've driven an 83 CJ-7 for over 13 years. It's has a manual. I love it. I'll never get rid of that car. But my next car is a 2005 4Runner, which as you know only comes with an automatic transmission.

"But it's dangerous when it downshifts...you don't have as much control...blah...blah...blah." I'm going to be blunt...you simply don't know how to drive an AT if you've said this. Every car is different. Every car shifts in a different manner. It's up to you to figure out when this happens. In a manual, obviously you shift when you want. In an AT, you can mimic this behavior to a decent degree. Even if your transmission is worn or if it just doesn't shift smoothly out of the box, it is very possible to make it shift smoothly. And you can downshift manually too. They don't give you all those options on AT gates for nothing. You just have to learn how the car behaves, which is no different from a car with a MT.

I've successfully driven ATs in all conditions. You just have to learn how to drive them. Obviously, it helps if you have a MT background to work with. Most people don't, as evidenced by their use the "idiot" box in D all the time or by the confused look on their face when the car ends up in a ditch.

Bottom line, a car is only as intelligent as its driver. MT vs. AT really isn't that big of a difference performance wise anymore.

As for the 4Runner engines, they used to be terrible. One of my best friends had a 93 or 94 with the then suped up V6. It was way underpowered. The 05 V6 and V8 are great though. I took both of them up Luther Pass in Tahoe (over 7,500'). Driving South, The V6 climbed up the pass at about 60mph. The V8 motored right on past that, and kept accelerating. In fact, I didn't really open up the V8 all the way since it was a test drive. Also the V8 only gets 1/2 mpg less than the V6 since the displacement is only slightly larger. So I got the V8. Still, the new V6 is a great engine. In the flat lands it's every bit as good as the 8. In the mountains, it's still a respectible performer.

[natty dread]

As for the 4Runner engines, they used to be terrible. One of my best friends had a 93 or 94 with the then suped up V6. It was way underpowered. The 05 V6 and V8 are great though.

That was the problem with the AT 4runner I drove--no power. My friend has a 5 sp and it drives much better with the same engine. With more power, the AT becomes a more attractive option. But pu was looking at the older 4runner, not the pimped out 05 you're getting--nice truck!

[Arty50]

Yeah, I can't wait. It should be ready on Wednesday. My first new car. I wanted to get a used 04 V6, until I drove the V8 up Luther. It was just too sweet with little milage penalty (and it runs cleaner too). They changed the V8 significantly this year also, so that forced me to go new. What have I done?

Also FYI, the 05 AT is a 5 speed. Dunno what the old ones are.

The other thing with the older 4Runners is the fact they were very tippy. I know several people that rolled theirs. The redesign in 03 appears to have widened the wheelbase.

Frankly, I would avoid the pre 03 4Runners. Like you said, the engine is underpowered, they tip easily, and the rear springs tend to sag. Just not worth it.

[lemon boy]

Natty-

While rowing the gears on a big truck may be a PITA (note: since the 90s the clutches on big trucks have gotten downright light although the throw's remain LONG) the ATs cannot really handle the power (even the ally's have been blowing up on the chebbys ) There is a booming aftermarket for upgraded AT guts.

Arty- Congrats on the pimp mobile! Need picture TR

SuPu- FYI, hybrid only gets you MPG gains in city stop-n-go driving. On the highway they tend to get ~= to a regular gasser cause the engine has to run all time.

[Arty50]

SuPu- FYI, hybrid only gets you MPG gains in city stop-n-go driving. On the highway they tend to get ~= to a regular gasser cause the engine has to run all time.

Yeah, it's weird to see a car that lists city mpg as being much higher than highway mpg.

[lemon boy]

I am of the mind that hybrid technology is fucking bullshit right now. It makes zero sense (other than from a pansy ass marketing perspective) to run gasoline in them. A well built diesel hybrid would be making 100+mpgs right now instead of the lame 37-50s the gassers are showing. They're worse (and worse on the highway by far) than just the VW diesels and those could still be better. In the late 80s/early 90s the Honda CRX HF had a highway gas MPG of 59.

One of the new ford's (can't remember which) has some weird ass tranny that is gearless. I've heard that it is interesting/neat to drive, obviuosly no word on durability.

[Core Shot]

I am of the mind that hybrid technology is fucking bullshit right now. It makes zero sense (other than from a pansy ass marketing perspective) to run gasoline in them. A well built diesel hybrid would be making 100+mpgs right now instead of the lame 37-50s the gassers are showing.

The gas engine in a hybrid starts and stops often, as needed, when there is not enough power coming from the batteries. A diesel would not like that type of service useage.

If, however, you knew you were mainly driving on the highways, or were willing to have the diesel idling in the city, ready to kick in throttle as needed, then a diesel hybrid would work.

[lemon boy]

Diesels are not that much harder to start, especially once warm
They are way more efficient
Diesel is already the most prevalent/tested platform for combustion/electric motors in the world (cheating statistic)

Gas hybrid is nothing more than a nod to the soccer mom contingent that just couldn't be bothered to look for the green handles...ohhh it is soooo hard to find.

[Core Shot]

I've had two diesels, one truck one car.
Both were great.
Its just that at cold startup they make a racket and smoke.

In order to work in the current hybrid setup (where the car is electric-only until more power is needed) they would need to be kept in some kind of standby mode (whether by idling, or by being kept pre-heated).

Would be kick ass if they could do it.

[Big E]

For the size diesel that you'd be talking about in a Civic-sized hybrid, I wouldn't think starting would be much of an issue. The ones that are "hard to start" are the big honkers like lb's PowerStroke and the Cummins. That being said, my Cummins has never not started, and I've had it for almost 5 years, still with the original batteries. (But I'll be replacing them before next winter)

[lemon boy]

They could power an on board block heater easily enough. With my truck plugged in it starts smoothly and immediately. Shit, it melts snow that falls on the hood.

[Arty50]

Since we're talking about hybrids now, I might as well bring this up. Obviously, we all love the snow, and a naturally snow falls in cold environments. And as you may or may not know, electrical transmission is less efficient in colder environs. So how does cold affect the electric motors in hybrids?

[lemon boy]

HA!

now that is a good question Arty-

I bet though that it has a relatively negligible effect, maybe only 1-2mpg if that much. Certainly the battery efficiency will be worse but I think (WAG) that once the engine bay comes up to operating temps it will be fine, I think that the batts will likely warm up as well with all the charging/discharging.

[ulty_guy]

i've driven a few of the newer diesels here in europe and have to say that they offer unreal performance given the mpg you get. i rag on these things, and it's tough not to get 40-50 mpg or better. i'm pretty sure that the diesel is higher spec here in the europe which means that they can run more sophisticated combustion thingyies. other thing is that even w/ these clean ones, you cut down on CO2 emmissions, but you still get a good amount of the SOX and NOX that produces smog which is why states w/ smog probs have stopped selling diesels.

[natty dread]

Natty- While rowing the gears on a big truck may be a PITA (note: since the 90s the clutches on big trucks have gotten downright light although the throw's remain LONG) the ATs cannot really handle the power (even the ally's have been blowing up on the chebbys ) There is a booming aftermarket for upgraded AT guts.

Ally's been blowing up? Damn, didn't think that'd be an issue with that tranny. Any word on ford's new torqshift's durability? I may be in the market for an E350 van with the pwrstroke/torqshift combo...

Splat and I rented a passat diesel wagon in germany a few years ago and I must say the performance blew us away!

[lemon boy]

it is my understanding that all of the big three's trannies die when used "hard" (ie: towing near the GCVW or when hopped up a bit) unless they get some aftermarket loving. (bigger cooler, upgraded internals and TQ converters etc...)

The Torqshift too has problems but nothing like the old E4ODs did. They had a big recall on them though b/c some pin was backing out and grenading trannies.

The big scandal though is that the 6.0 just ain't all dat and next year (07) they're bringing out another whole new engine (6.4L). By comparison the 7.3's basic configuration was available for ~8 years depending on how you count (would go furhter if you included the NA versions using the same basic block) versus just 4 on the 6.0. They do make crazy stock power though and only the most modified of late 7.3s can hang with them when the 6.0 just has a tuner/exhaust. Plus, the fuel efficiency numbers are not better (WORSE!) than the 7.3s. Ford has committed itself to the HP wars with the other two unfortunately.

Probably your best bet then is to wait for an 08 E series to see how the 6.4 turns out or look for a 2002/2003* E series setup the way you want with a 7.3 (*2003 MY Ford made both 6.0s and 7.3s for a time dunno for sure about the E series). The other great benny to getting an 02/03 is that it has long since been settled what they need for long term durability (ie: tranny upgrades and performance upgrades) the 6.0 stuff is all bleeding edge (BLOODY).

[natty dread]

Thx for the info LB. Only prob I see with getting a 7.3 van is the shitty tranny, but I suppose that could be strengthened with aftermarket stuff. I like the idea of the proven engine. To continue the semi-hijack, why is the 6.0 not all that? Durability? I don't want to wait till '08 to see how the 6.4 pans out!

[lemon boy]

They can put the older trannies right basically by formula now I believe* and if you do grenade one you can buy any number of custom trannies that you could not blow up regardless of how much power you're putting down.

The 6.0 has a few problems, they call them snowflakes cause no two are alike. Some get 10mpg, some 20+. Some are dogs some can light tires at will. When the turbo really boosts it lifts the heads and blows hot exhaust gasses into the coolant causing coolant to puke out the resrvoirs (stronger headstuds are one of the big mods those guys are into). The performance mod boys have been causing a bunch of blowups and b/c Fords got new better computers they are voiding a LOT of warranties for having power mods. Mother ford don't take kindly to them at all (people have in the past really abused the 100k warranty) That said, the last few of the 6.0s made (06s) should be relatively bug free I would just stay away from the mods till the 100K expires (notice: with a crate engine costing 10000+ no shit, who can just dump that into a new truck). For all the problems though, if I had the coin for a new truck I doubt I'd hesitate too long on a new 06 (6spd though). I also think that while the number of problems is relatively high the percentage of problems is relatively low (Ford sells a fucking ton of diesels). There are a lot of "stupid" people out there out to go power crazy on a brand new platform. These beta testers imvho have more money than brains by a long ways.

And I lied, if I had the coin for a new 6.0 my truck would be laying down 500 bhp and 850 ftpds at the rears


*I only sort of follow the 99.5-2003 7.3 and 6.0 goings on so don't know the specifics.

[natty dread]

Thanks again dood, chances are I wouldn't mod it to much, if at all, I think the power is plenty stock for me. They are putting the duramax in the 06 GM vans, but no allison, just the 4L85E. And GM van build quality absolutely sucks.
Maybe a 2003 7.3 with a strengthen tranny is the ticket...

[lemon boy]

De nada

The other thing is I have never seen a 4wd conversion for a chevy/dodge.

Yes, beef the tranny is all you should have to do. If you do get one of the 7.3s I can give you the number of my chip contact, I think he has a program for the newer 7.3s that does basically the same for them as my 97: leeetle more power, 15-20% better mileage (ymmv)

[natty dread]

De nada

The other thing is I have never seen a 4wd conversion for a chevy/dodge.

http://www.quigley4x4.com/pages/inde...=page&upID=118

[mr_gyptian]

Found On Road, Dead

Flipped Over Reservation Decoration.

[mr_gyptian]

Since we're talking about hybrids now, I might as well bring this up. Obviously, we all love the snow, and a naturally snow falls in cold environments. And as you may or may not know, electrical transmission is less efficient in colder environs. So how does cold affect the electric motors in hybrids?

adversely. the problem is that the gas engine has to maintain a specific temp. which is maintained by running it rather than the electric. the only one I've sold has averaged around 23mpg. which compared to the 4 cyl, manual(30mpg) is not good at all. especially since the latter goes for 22K and the former goes for 33K.

clean diesel is the wave of the future.

oh, and Natty/LB don't count on that 6.4L. it will probably happen, but there is some serious problems b/t Navistar and Ford right now.

[Idris]

I know this is a rerun but anyone thinking of buying a truck or suv should watch this the only thing that comes close in durability is German built Mercedes (not the M series crap) or comercial Land Rover products.