Killed while filming. How do we backtrack from where we are?

[neck beard]

I don't see much Nanny State here. I see Capitalist State, in which all factors of production should be priced correctly. And perhaps they are being already? Perhaps film-skiers are happy to take what they get (both monetary and nonmonetary) in exchange for what they give.

No one said reduce risk. Some people have started to hypothesize whether risk is being paid for appropriately.

Others are saying that nothing should get in the way of the worlds best skiers skiing on the absolute edge at all times. It certainly seems like the world is capable of producing more than enough people willing to sign the waiver and push the limits at the current market rate of compensation. That is valuable in the times of WWI and WWII, polar exploration, and one day, martian exploration:



But... This Is Just Skiing. Or... Conquering The Useless?

Personally, I see it as a race to the bottom so long as sponsors and producer fail to fully compensate that which is given, or contingently may be given. And so long as retail consumers continue to undervalue that which is given. I am not saying risk should be reduced. I do not like anyone telling anyone else what to do. I do however trust in equilibrium to a certain degree, and have proposed that there is currently disequilibrium.

[TahoeJ]

I'm willing to bet Candide would have skied those lines without the cameras rolling. Plenty of people did plenty of crazy shit for a long time without being paid or filmed.

[Canada1]

Progresssion has made what was cool in 1990 pretty tame today. Progression has made park riders access backcountry with little to no training to throw huge air off things that they do every day in a park environment. Progression has taken guys who know the backcountry to do shit I would only dream in full flow at full speed on 60 degree faces.

The comments about better gear causing increased risk seem ill informed to me. Like the guy who claims he doesn't wear a helmet because he won't take big risk if he doesn't have a helmet on. If you've ever seen human brains on the ground, you want your friends to wear as much shit as possible. I always think about the times I've hit things under an inch of snow in a field of powder and had big digs in my Helmets. When you make a mistake, it isn't the gears fault, it's yours.

I haven't filmed, but it would seem the filming environment would amplify group think. They are spending on camera, crew and often air time. On a blue bird day, the pressure must be big to get the lines they came for. Hell, I am the worst about Powder fever and I don't have anyone counting on me with a budget.

[galibier_numero_un]

This is great reading. Neck Beard's analysis of properly pricing the cost of production is spot on. This has nothing to do with advocating a nanny state or comparing it with how many people die in car accidents.

Keeping with this economic analysis, the labor supply outstrips the demand, and we know what that does to wages (whether it be in salary or insurance). This is amplified by the mentality in the "major" sports - if you're injured, someone else is waiting to take your job, and the athlete feels pressure to play while injured and/or concussed. In the ski/snowboard context, when looking down at a particular line, the athlete's inner voice is compromised by the pressure to get the shot. If they back down, it costs money, and there's always someone waiting in line for the next movie who has a higher risk threshold.

[edit] I just read the Powder article which makes this point - about the pressure to deliver running the potential to cloud judgement & risk assessment.

I have a buddy who works as a stunt coordinator, and he's left gigs because his risk assessment was too conservative for the production company. These same producers were begging him to run future projects after his judgement was proven correct. More pressure (on the guides, in our freeride film example).

To the original question, there's likely no going backward, in terms of the product that the general public wants to buy (Roman gladiators in the colliseum), as the ratchet cranks one way (or as XXX-er commented - the genie is out of the bottle).

Me? One of my favorite videos is the "Otter Body Experience" as it took us through the thought process of (first and foremost) evaluating and managing risk. I'll bet that most on this thread would agree, but I'd also bet that we're in the minority.

Cheers,
Thom

[iscariot]

I posed this question to MikeD when he did the TGR ask me anything.

Basically I was watching old ski movies, and the number of now dead people stood out like a sore thumb.

I asked him what he thought.

To paraphrase, he said that he and other pros talk about this all the time, an he said skiing was definitely not worth dying for.

He said the way out of this, the way skiing could save itself, was through creativity.

I agree with MikeD.

I stopped watching movies a few years ago, because so many people were dying. I stopped enjoying watching.

Skiers have bashed pretty hard into the human physical limits of skiing, and I think creativity is the better option.

Creativity is more entertaining. Creativity gets me stoked. Creativity can save lives, and skiing.

I think skiing needs to show that it has smart creative people. That skiing is not about some soon-to-be-dead meatbag scraping down some 60 degree face and hucking meat...only to be replaced by some other nameless meatbag.

Smart, creative, personalities can save skiing, while simultaneously backing off the dead "hero" meme.

[klar]

66 People killed in Europe this year in avy's.
Many more next year with all the newbies hitting the backcountry.
It is becoming an epidemic.

The general consensus seems to be that fatalities are not increasing with rising user numbers in Europe. See eg here for Switzerland.

[pureantigravity]

The general consensus seems to be that fatalities are not increasing with rising user numbers in Europe. See eg here for Switzerland.

OK. I'll have to look at that.
For the USA, the chart shows a general increase in fatalities.
I controlled for Touring and Sledding.
http://public.tableau.com/shared/RBK...play_count=yes

Fatalities is not as common because of rescue and medical advances too.
And somewhat factored on weather and luck.
But what about injuries?

How do they measure 'per user' rates for backcountry / extreme sports?

[klar]

Fatalities is not as common because of rescue and medical advances too.

But what about injuries?

How do they measure 'per user' rates for backcountry / extreme sports?

They go through a fair amount of statistics for "serious avalanches", which they define as fatality, injury, complete burial, or combination thereof. I do not think they measure a 'per user' rate in this study, they simply point out that the number of "serious avalanches" has remained more or less stable during the last 20 years, despite an increase in users and increased reporting of incidents. They attribute this at least partially to advances in rescue techniques, yes.

[Hicks]

Pretty good interview with Sam Anthamatten about Estelle's accident and decision making while filming.

http://www.1815.ch/news/wallis/aktue...uns-geschockt/

It's in German so run it thru Google translator.

[Alkasquawlik]

Well, since I'm seemingly heavily involved in this discussion here, chose to layout a lot of my inner thoughts in the Powder article and am a constant analyst of the state of skiing, I'm open to any direct questions if you guys have any. But first and foremost, to add to the commentary, I will say as of now, there are simply no concrete answers to why my heroes and friends are dying doing this sport. Though the single most simple way I can boil it down is to this: The mountains and the backcountry are inherently unpredictable and incredibly dangerous. When you're in them, you're swimming with sharks. The more time you're swimming, the more your odds rise that you could be bitten. Sure there are a plethora of other factors--risk, technology, collective progression of what is possible-- that are leading to deaths and injuries, but ultimately, the number of people spending a majority of their winter in the backcountry has exponentially risen in the last twenty years. More and more people are spending more and more days out there. So regardless of your education, your risk calculation, your skill, your line selection, the odds of dying or getting hurt are going to rise the more time you spend out there.

Now, that's the simplest answer I can boil this whole problem down to. From there it gets more complex. Sure I got my theories and thoughts...but none of them are proven and none of them could account for every pro's or joe's death out there. But for myself, I'm consciously making decisions in my career and day-to-day skiing to achieve my number one goal in skiing: Don't Die.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Thanks for chiming in Alka. If you don't want to answer any of these questions, no problem. Also, you can answer them generally for pro skiers instead of personally if you prefer.

a. How really is the perception that the level of risks taken increased dramatically once the heli, film crew, fluffers etc. are on site?

b. How does the whole workmans comp, liability insurance, contract thing work?

c. Is there a large difference, in your opinion, between TGR/MSP type filming and protocols vs. self financed and filmed stuff (probably the wrong terminologies but it seems like there are an few different ways content gets made).

How you had/are having a great season. Stay safe. Don't Die. Thanks.

[hop]

Thanks for chiming in Alka. If you don't want to answer any of these questions, no problem. Also, you can answer them generally for pro skiers instead of personally if you prefer.

a. How really is the perception that the level of risks taken increased dramatically once the heli, film crew, fluffers etc. are on site?

b. How does the whole workmans comp, liability insurance, contract thing work?

c. Is there a large difference, in your opinion, between TGR/MSP type filming and protocols vs. self financed and filmed stuff (probably the wrong terminologies but it seems like there are an few different ways content gets made).

How you had/are having a great season. Stay safe. Don't Die. Thanks.

I'm not Alka level of pro extremo but I've been on my fair share of film/photo shoots. As another data point I'll answer those questions as well.

A: IMO there's a microscopically increased level of "we need to get the shot" with film/photo/fluffers around, but for the most part everyone I've worked with (athletes and photo/film) has been super cool if anyone in the group has doubts or concerns. Every once in a while I'll get pressure to do something I don't feel comfortable doing but at this point in my "career" I have no problems telling someone to fuck off if I'm not feeling it. All that being said I have seen some younger up-and-comers jump on some pretty gnarly stuff without any sort of hesitation. Maybe I'm just getting old but I'd prefer to get older.

While everyone wants to get the shot, everyone also wants to go home intact at the end of the day and that's the #1 priority. I tend to think that bad things happen if/when people lose sight of that. I can also say from personal experience that I've gotten wiser as I've gotten older. Perhaps the best thing I can pass on to the younger generation of extremos is that it's a marathon, not a sprint. Try and be smart about being in the mountains. Don't huck to flat. Of course trying to explain this to a 16-year-old that still bounces and only wants to go huge to hardpack is usually pretty futile but man, if I could take back some of those bad landings I certainly would.

B: I'm on the hook for my own insurance and whatnot.

C: can't really compare as I've only done the latter.

Filming or shooting or just skiing for fun - it's up to the individual to make their own decisions.

[powdork]

i think one could easily equate the feeling of pressure from a camera crew to the same pressure you feel when you get to the top of the line and suddenly the skies clear after being graybird all day. it's time to shit or get off the pot.

[Alkasquawlik]

Thanks for chiming in Alka. If you don't want to answer any of these questions, no problem. Also, you can answer them generally for pro skiers instead of personally if you prefer.

a. How really is the perception that the level of risks taken increased dramatically once the heli, film crew, fluffers etc. are on site?

The pressure is really far higher in the summer and in your mind the night before. I can't speak for all pro's and I've seen a lot of different reasons why skiers do what they do...but 90% of the big mountain skiers are in it purely for the joy of it. Day of filming, I've never felt the direct pressure of the cameras. Sure you feel that this is the time to do what you do, to accomplish what's been racing through your head for years and for you to step up your game but I have absolutely never done anything that felt beyond my means because of the cameras. You work closely with crews all year and their is a comfort with them that doesn't push you to do beyond what you believe your capable of. Most would be astounded how often we back down and how often we don't even look in the direction of 'pushing it'. In all reality, there is only a couple days a year and a few lines per year where I feel like I'm laying a lot on the line.

b. How does the whole workmans comp, liability insurance, contract thing work?

We're all independent contractors. All liability, insurance is on us and workman's comp has never even been a possibility.

c. Is there a large difference, in your opinion, between TGR/MSP type filming and protocols vs. self financed and filmed stuff (probably the wrong terminologies but it seems like there are an few different ways content gets made).

I honestly do think there are differences. When you're starting out, working with the small guys, working your own way up the ladder, you often don't have the budget, access or culture to hire guides and safety staff. With TGR/MSP/Salomon FSTV, we pretty much always have guides or safety staff on hand. Most heli companies we fly with have two guides with us at all times. Even when we're sort of 'guiding' ourselves--like this most recent camping, hiking and skiing trip to Alaska--we still will hire a guide so that there is one person, always focused on safety, rescue and rescue logistics. We often go out in our backyards with out guides but these days most filming is trip based and therefore there is generally guides there. When I was younger, making my way up, unless we were heli-skiing, there was never a guide, nor much culture surrounding the idea of safety or even group training. I believe things have changed a bit in the past 5 years because of all the recent deaths and accidents so there is a higher avalanche understanding and better safety culture, but for the most part, it's hard to hire a guide when you're making $2k a year from your sponsors and $20k a year from your restaurant job.

How you had/are having a great season. Stay safe. Don't Die. Thanks.

Thanks!

[bodywhomper]

You may have answered yourself between your two posts:

there are simply no concrete answers to why my heroes and friends are dying doing this sport.

In all reality, there is only a couple days a year and a few lines per year where I feel like I'm laying a lot on the line.

personally, i don't lay it on the line. others may think that i do, but i always feel like i'm leaving myself some margin, especially in the backcountry. i've gotten to the bottom of an objective after two days of approach and turned away; i've climbed an objective with a friend who said "there's no fucking way i'm dropping into that" and we've turned away; and i've watched a friend tomahawk down a couloir over a day out from any car (no "spot" or cells phones, either) and luckily come out with a broken pair of shades and a mental shake-up.

I have only skimmed this thread, but it was posted due to deaths by avalanche. pro skiers dying from avalanches while skiing in avalanche terrain. i'm in the camp of if you play in the terrain enough, the potential of shit hitting the fan goes up, even if you're conceivably doing all the "right things". guides get taken out, clients get taken out, avi professionals get taken out. i've heard Tom Kimbrough discuss his first observation of (and almost being caught in a) "corn slab" in 2005 - at that time, he'd actively worked in "the industry" since the early 70's. there's always uncertainty.

i think the "trend" of hitting the big lines in europe and more remote areas in the lower 48 in good soft snow conditions could result in more avalanche-related deaths.

if the accidents that triggered the start of this thread were more similar to paul ruff's death or mcconkey's death, imo, a discussion of backtracking could make more sense. i recall reading an article in powder maybe 30 years ago that described the european "extreme" scene. the narrative, to me, was pretty wild; the media frenzy and intensity of self promotion for a new first descent. it read like self-imposed pressure to perform. i also remember how that article discussed a pro snowboarder who died (ice slide to death) during his warm-up run before his big scheduled descent....

[powdork]

if the accidents that triggered the start of this thread were more similar to paul ruff's death or mcconkey's death, imo, a discussion of backtracking could make more sense. i recall reading an article in powder maybe 30 years ago that described the european "extreme" scene. the narrative, to me, was pretty wild; the media frenzy and intensity of self promotion for a new first descent. it read like self-imposed pressure to perform. i also remember how that article discussed a pro snowboarder who died (ice slide to death) during his warm-up run before his big scheduled descent....

the recent accidents may have prompted me to actually write the post (max was probably my favorite skier), but it's a thought that's been in my head since alka's line of the year. mostly because that would have involved the slightest human error, rather than mother nature just jumping up and saying 'it's time'.

[skifishbum]

i don't understand why more people don't backtrack and become fans of cricket crochet or curlin or a host of other sports that require way less risk toleranances

[powdork]

i thought google was gonna find some funny cricket accidents but there have actually been a surprising amount of cricket related deaths. maybe skiing is the safer of the two sports

[bodywhomper]

It's an accepted cricket-related risk.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

What is missing with Candide, it's all clips of riding. There is no interview, no talking with the athlete, no contextualization, no feedback, no Q & A, no 'personality' on any of these posts on his FB wall.
There is no athlete-to-viewer communication beyond the view of him always riding in the distance or wearing a POV camera.

You're probably the only person in the world asking for this from Candide. Not that he couldn't do it, but um, have you seen his view counts? Why would he need to do anything other than what he's doing?

[TahoeJ]

Not to mention, we're talking about a guy whose movie was called FEW WORDS. Heh.

[PNWbrit]

i thought google was gonna find some funny cricket accidents but there have actually been a surprising amount of cricket related deaths. maybe skiing is the safer of the two sports

I once saw someone drive their femur through their knee joint and out over the top of their tibia while they were bowling in a Cricket match.... There's probably a formal name for such an injury... "thighbone sticking out through cricket pants" or something.

[XXX-er]

A lot of skiers are into crochet and curling.
Have you seen them neck beard face masks that people have been sporting on the hills.
Who do you think knitted those — grannies with dull plastic needles?



For the record — McConkey stopped being a skier and started being a stunt actor.
Just cause you strap skis and fly off a cliff with a parachute, doesn't make it skiing just because skis are involved.
Jumping off the Peak-to-Peak gondola is not skiing.
His father was a skier. Shane was a skier turned stunt-man.
But what the pros here -Estelle and Maxim- are doing is somewhat accessible to the masses.

Looking at what Candide did https://www.facebook.com/CandideThov...3428559018204/
I can find steep, possibly slab prone, not-half as picturesque, not half as pow-endowed, not half as long, but overall similar terrain on local off-piste runs.
Most people can.
That's skiing, and I can try to be Candide with my Gopro running.
I don't see what Candide did there as stunt riding so much as extreme, and highly talented, and esthetically awesome skiing.
What is missing with Candide, it's all clips of riding. There is no interview, no talking with the athlete, no contextualization, no feedback, no Q & A, no 'personality' on any of these posts on his FB wall.
There is no athlete-to-viewer communication beyond the view of him always riding in the distance or wearing a POV camera.
Less talk is good, but where is Candide, the person, the one we all want to relate with?
At least McConkey showed up in person, in drama, in a more holistically social way.

But I really wanted to hear the pros chime in about "what constitutes athlete, sponsor and commercial ethics in the skiing enthusiast world?"
Somewhere in this discussion is the reality that a sport must somehow find a way to present itself as responsible to its members, conscious of the better good.
Not sure if that's the best way to word it ... but something along those lines.

why do they have to be responsible ?

I thot the point was to be extreme ?

Back in the day I ran into/shared a plane ride with Laurie Skreslet the 1st Canadian to summit everest (back when climbing everest was really something) when he was doing the motivational talk circuit about the climb he said more or less after a few drinks "you thro your life away when you head up the Khumbu Ice fall some people couldn't accept that"

I'm not doing any of this stuff but logicaly speaking when things are extreme maybe someone gets hurt or killed, I assume they must accept that possiblity before they do it why does this have to be complicated ?

You could easily get stabbed with those knitting needles ... very extreme eh?

[kailas]

I believe the equipment has made a huge difference. I know people that were so so skiers that when they got onto fat skis looked like pros. The new skis are so easy, anyone can ski where they would have had trouble getting down the hill before. We use to love big powder days because only the locals, those of us from the 'ski town' could ski those huge dumps. All the tourists and eastcoast transplants use to complain because the snow was too deep for them, we of course laughed. We would have the mountain to ourselves, maybe 40 of us plus patrol. This is when powder patience ruled the day. These days the fresh snow is trashed in mere hours.

[powdork]

I'm not sure what your point is? Are you saying the best skiers aren't that good? Are you saying better gear makes skiing more dangerous?