ON3P SKIS Discussion

[ScrewYou]

Because the Kartel has more splay in the tips and tails making it run shorter. As someone who has owned the BG in 191, and 186. The 86 is by far more enjoyable, and loses nothing to the 91.

Scott pushed me towards the 86 Kartel 116 over the 191, and I enjoy that too.

Thats what is more enjoyable for you, but that doesnt mean for everyone..I actually want the 191 Billy Goat to be bigger! Thats why I got a 193 C&D.

There is no way the 186 is as good at maching through chop and chunder as the 191 is. I have never skied the 186, but if the same rules apply to the BG as other skis, the 191 should easily be more of a tank. Maybe the 186 would be better for me bopping around the trees at medium speeds, or for touring, but I just dont see how else it could be "more enjoyable" for me and the way I ski inbounds. Like I said, I wish it was a little bit burlier actually.. maybe if I was smaller, what you say would apply to me.

However I agree with you that the 189 and 191 should be a more similar burl level, just with the 189 being a better all mountain ski. I didnt mean to sound like I was complaining, it was meant more as just a comment. I honestly would have thought a 191 directional big mountain charger makes more sense than a 191 jib ski, because people looking to jib are willing to give up a little more than an actual "big mountain charger", who needs all the burl he can get. I think the 189 wrens make sense tho, as thats really all anyone under 6'5" and 240lbs, who isnt a pro, could ever need. Id like to see a 196 Billy Goat tho, the 189/191 is a resort ski that can be used in soft bumps even.. Im only 6'3, 210lbs.

Like Undertow, I will never get rid of my 191 Billy Goat either. However I may demo the 189 Billy Goat this season, to see if its more versatile all mountain, with the new sidecut underfoot and 116mm waist. If so, Ill get a new pair for 2018. I got a lot of days left to put on my 2015s, they're mint.

[XavierD]

The 189 Billy Goat is the exact same effective length as the 191 Billy Goat, but doesnt have as much of a twin. The full twin tip seems much more important on the Kartel, which is why they likely made it a 191. I could see the move to 116 for both the BG and the Kartel as ON3P's idea of the ideal regular use pow ski width that can still handle firm snow. Has anyone reported a lack of float in the 189 BG (116mm)? Moving the Jeffery 114 to a Kartel 116 makes sense with the changes in shape to it (more powder/surfy) and the loss of the Jeffery 122.

[ScrewYou]

http://abetterski.com/ski-reviews/on...08-ski-review/

My heart is disappointed, but my wallet is not. It doesnt seem that much burlier than my vicik, not enough to justify purchase when my viciks are still minty. Plus they said it was going to be "softened up a bit for next year".. Im out.

A custom, extra stiff Steeple 108 has my name on it though.

For big mountain guns under 110mm, it looks like its between the reintroduced Dynastar Pro Rider and 194 Moment Belafonte. The belafonte is significantly stiffer than my vicik, so im guessing its still stiffer than the wren 108, putting the 194 on my radar.

[BWA]

Does anyone have input on the differences between the old Kartel 106 and the new Kartel 108?

Judging from the reviews the 186 108 sounds like what I'm looking for in a fuck around ski, but I found a deal on some 181 106's. If the 106's are any softer then I'll probably pass as I'm already worried about it not being substantial enough.

[MiddleOfNight]

Offerings posted!
Scott will trade skis for money
Compelling lineup.


https://shop.on3pskis.com/collections/2017-skis

[alfajores]

Really love the podcast Scott. http://blistergearreview.com/feature...nder-on3p-skis

[TexasGortex]

If I'm not mistaken, last years wider Jeffrey did not have elliptical sidecut while the narrower one and the Kartels did. Now that the Kartel line has expanded and absorbed the Jeffreys even the widest model has elliptical sidecut. What made you go that route?

Edit: The 116 has a bi-radius sidecut, it was just a temporary website error.

[adrenalated]

If I'm not mistaken, last years wider Jeffrey did not have elliptical sidecut while the narrower one and the Kartels did. Now that the Kartel line has expanded and absorbed the Jeffreys even the widest model has elliptical sidecut. What made you go that route?

Not sure where you're looking, but on the Kartel 116 page, I'm seeing bi-radius sidecut, not elliptical.

[iggyskier]

Not detuned at all, just direct from the shop. Always thought 3p's were sold good to go as is. I might gummy the tips to reduce any sun-crust hooking.

We heavily detune contact to tip/tail and then a minor detune contact to contact at the factory, but sometimes, especially in soft snow, they need a bit more. Normally that naturally detune into a good spot after 3-4 days. If not, a gummi up and down the edge should help.

Anyone have an idea of the stiffness of the Kartel 108's compared to a Bibby Pro?

Pretty sure the Bibby is going to be a bit more directional/solid underfoot, with the Kartel 108 a bit rounder.

I hope On3p makes another round of Skinny Goats within the next few seasons, with the standard layup, not touring layup.

Steeple 108 w/ stock layup is a custom option this year.

How does the Cease & Desist compare to the billy goat? Its just bigger and badder?

It's much more soft snow focused. Similar style in how they initiate a turn, but the CD is a lot more smearable. BG is more stable in variable though.

Does on3p believe in full rocker?

We've tested it. Fun in powder skis. We prefer a bit of camber in anything that isn't a pure powder ski.

How similar is the kartel 116 to the Bibby? Is it more jib oriented? Thanks.

To me, Bibby is inbetween the K116 & BG. It is more directional than the K116, more jibby than the BG. Good ski for sure.

What makes the C&D so "demanding", as ive read some people saying that in some threads?

Pre tour layup, they were a lot heavier and stiffer. For 90% of people, the move was the right choice for that ski. Float is better now too, and your legs are a lot less worked at the end of the day.

I was thinking BG but it looks like the 191@118 under foot is gone replaced with the 189@116 underfoot.

For those worried about the 191cm BG going from 191cm/118mm to 189cm/116mm....


For the records, the Effective Edge on the 189 is actually longer than on the 191 (and the above drawing doesn't even show the sidecut extensions that extend beyond the RES in the 189cm).

2cm of twin tip and 2mm of width should not be a concern here, even though I've seen countless posts expressing disappointment over the move. The 189 is a better ski than the 191.

That and why it went to 116 underfoot... I know a lot had to do with sales numbers and my guess with the 191 Kartel is the rocker is def more pronounced in the tail compared to the Billy... As I have said before no way will I part with my 191 Billy 118 underfoot... This ski and my 196 Renegades are POW killers...

Waist change was because, at the end of the day, the BG was getting used as an all mountain ski for most people on the west coast. Only the 191 was 118 underfoot, and the change from 118 to 116 is basically unnoticeable in powder, but noticeable on your knees and on hardpack.

you can tell the 190s something is not a huge seller for any ski manufacturer as I picked up several skis in the 19x over the past couple of years greatly discounted while the 17x and 18x were all sold out... Hell, my local shop with not carry anything in 19x unless specially ordered...

Skis over 190 don't sell, but the changes aren't always purely sales based. On the BG, the question became "why is this a full twin?" There is no need for it on that ski. Obviously that the 189 sells better than the 191 is factored in there, but not all the calls made are always 100% sales focused. Even at 189, not a huge seller.

Id like to see a 196 Billy Goat tho, the 189/191 is a resort ski that can be used in soft bumps even.. Im only 6'3, 210lbs.

With the mold paid for, we could build it (molds are not cheap though), but I doubt I could sell 10 pairs of 196cm Billy Goats.

The 189 Billy Goat is the exact same effective length as the 191 Billy Goat, but doesnt have as much of a twin. The full twin tip seems much more important on the Kartel, which is why they likely made it a 191. I could see the move to 116 for both the BG and the Kartel as ON3P's idea of the ideal regular use pow ski width that can still handle firm snow. Has anyone reported a lack of float in the 189 BG (116mm)? Moving the Jeffery 114 to a Kartel 116 makes sense with the changes in shape to it (more powder/surfy) and the loss of the Jeffery 122.

Just for total clarity, 189cm BG is actually longer in Effective Edge. As you can see above, the only real length change is in the twin, and I know there is no need for a full twin on that ski.

As XavierD stated above, the extra length is much more important on the jib line, as the skis are both more rockered, mounted more center, and have a full twin.

I dont quite understand why the Kartel series goes to 191, while the Billy Goat does not. Id rather see a 189 kartel, and 191 BG..

See above. 189cm BG skis a lot quite a bit longer than a 191cm Kartel 116.

http://abetterski.com/ski-reviews/on...08-ski-review/

My heart is disappointed, but my wallet is not. It doesnt seem that much burlier than my vicik, not enough to justify purchase when my viciks are still minty. Plus they said it was going to be "softened up a bit for next year".. Im out. .

Wren 108 is stiffer than the Vicik.

Does anyone have input on the differences between the old Kartel 106 and the new Kartel 108?

Judging from the reviews the 186 108 sounds like what I'm looking for in a fuck around ski, but I found a deal on some 181 106's. If the 106's are any softer then I'll probably pass as I'm already worried about it not being substantial enough.

The changes on the new one make it a bit better all mountain ski. The Kartel 106 was a killer ski, though. I would likely save the money and send us a 6-pack at the factory . Honestly, to me the biggest single improvement on the Kartel line is the updated sidecut on the Kartel 98. It holds an edge much better.

Offerings posted!
https://shop.on3pskis.com/collections/2017-skis

Website is only about 50% updated, so still building out a lot, but hope everyone likes the new line.

If I'm not mistaken, last years wider Jeffrey did not have elliptical sidecut while the narrower one and the Kartels did. Now that the Kartel line has expanded and absorbed the Jeffreys even the widest model has elliptical sidecut. What made you go that route?

Just a web error. Jeffrey 114 and Kartel 116 are both Bi-Radius.

[iggyskier]

Not sure where you're looking, but on the Kartel 116 page, I'm seeing bi-radius sidecut, not elliptical.

I corrected the error after he posted.

[TexasGortex]

Thanks for the reply. The 191cm Kartel 116 sounds like a hell of a ski. If I can swing new skis this year it's #1 on my list.

[ScrewYou]

Steeple 108 w/ stock layup is a custom option this year.

It's much more soft snow focused. Similar style in how they initiate a turn, but the CD is a lot more smearable. BG is more stable in variable though.

Pre tour layup, they were a lot heavier and stiffer. For 90% of people, the move was the right choice for that ski. Float is better now too, and your legs are a lot less worked at the end of the day.



For those worried about the 191cm BG going from 191cm/118mm to 189cm/116mm....
For the records, the Effective Edge on the 189 is actually longer than on the 191 (and the above drawing doesn't even show the sidecut extensions that extend beyond the RES in the 189cm).

2cm of twin tip and 2mm of width should not be a concern here, even though I've seen countless posts expressing disappointment over the move. The 189 is a better ski than the 191.

With the mold paid for, we could build it (molds are not cheap though), but I doubt I could sell 10 pairs of 196cm Billy Goats.

What is the deadline for custom orders? Im DEFINITELY getting a steeple 108 with the regular layup.

Thanks for answering a bunch of questions there... Excited to ski my 2016 C&Ds.

[iggyskier]

What is the deadline for custom orders? Im DEFINITELY getting a steeple 108 with the regular layup.

Thanks for answering a bunch of questions there... Excited to ski my 2016 C&Ds.

No problem. Ran through them real quick, as I am still working on the website a lot, so let me know if I missed something.

No deadline - custom ordering option will be a regular option moving forward. Hope you enjoy the Cease & Desist.

[eskido]

Apologies if this has already come up, but is the K116 softer than the other 2 models? What does it compare to stiffness wise?

[neck beard]

Im DEFINITELY getting a steeple 108 with the regular layup.

ditto, probably. Interesting opportunity.

[TahoeJ]

Heh. After all the naysayers to my thread last year, now everyone wants a skinny goat. ;-)

[Jimty]

Any thoughts on the 184 Atris (which I own) vs the 108 Kartel in a 186 as a quiver of one (west coast and Europe)? I like the Atris well enough for inbounds skiing, but find it "hinges" on me a bit in heavier / variable snow. Guessing the 108 Kartel would be a bit beefier, be more stable at speed but still be nimble / playful in trees and bumps? The Kartel's description on the website (esp. the flex) sounds $$$$.
Also assume the ON3P will have the Atris beat for durability. Could go 181, but prefer mid 180s for the extra edge (keeping those Euro groomers in mind......)
5 ft 10, 74kg, ski fairly centred, finesse / playfulness over power / speed.

[XavierD]

Having skied both, I own the Kartel 108.
The Kartel is noticeable more damp and burly. The Atris is lighter and nimbler. You also won't go through the base of the Kartel the first time a rock shows up.

[Jimty]

Thanks for the input Xavier. Yeah, those Atris bases.... I've seen paper bags that are tougher.

[DGamms]

Iggyskier, curious to hear more about your tests with flat or subtle reverse camber. As a big fan of the metal Volkl Katana, Rossi Sickle, and 4FRNT Devastator as daily driver skis, I love the feel of a subtle reverse camber ski. The ability to pivot and shut down speed quickly is so useful. What do you guys not like in the ON3P line up with that design?

[adrenalated]

I'm not going to speak for Scott or ON3P. But the reason I personally don't like reverse camber skis like all the ones you mention is that they lack life, pop, and snap out of a turn when you load them up on firmer snow. I'll grant that a reverse camber ski pivots easier and shuts down speed faster, I just don't really care that much about that.

[ScrewYou]

I have found that On3p skis are surprisingly easy to shut down and slide around for the level of stability they offer.. not like katanas, or the og flat cochise, but its close.

Moment skis has the new Meridian for this year. Full rocker all mtn. I dont know if its low profile tho.

I loved the old Katana too, its only flaw IMO was the lack of pop that Adrenalated said.

[Lindahl]

I have found that On3p skis are surprisingly easy to shut down and slide around for the level of stability they offer.. not like katanas, or the og flat cochise, but its close.

Moment skis has the new Meridian for this year. Full rocker all mtn. I dont know if its low profile tho.

I loved the old Katana too, its only flaw IMO was the lack of pop that Adrenalated said.

I also didn't like how far back the sidecut was centered. The mount point was -14. I really like -8 or -9. Mounting it at around -11 wasn't too bad though. That ski was awesome. Still have 2 pairs that I'll never let go of. I could get it to pop on hard snow, but you have to be going pretty fast to generate the force to get it into a good bend. Line Supernatural 108s have some of the best pop for hard snow carving but aren't really burly enough imo. Curious to try out the Wren 108.

[Norseman]

Agreed... Wren 108 might wander into my quiver this season.

[ScrewYou]

I think Volkl made the Confession slightly too wide at 117mm, it should have been 112. Would have been like a katana with a little camber and taper.

also forgot to mention, at 200lbs, if im on anything full rocker shorter than 190cm, I have to stay really forward during transitions to flat or I wheelie. Never have actually fallen in the wheelie, but its not a super confident position when running out the bottom of a bowl at 60mph. Happened on 184 katanas and 187 hojis, but wasnt nearly as noticable on the longer versions.. your suposed to stay forwrd during these transitions, but with the rocker I felt like I had to get "really forward"..

I had my 184 katanas +1cm and my 191s at +2, and felt like I could go farther forward..