Forest Roadless Rule Reversed

**Woodsy** · 09-20-2006, 12:15 PM

reversafied.
cue "activist court" shenaigans

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- A federal judge Wednesday reinstated a Clinton administration ban on the building of roads in untouched sections of national forests.
U.S. District Judge Elizabeth Laporte sided with states and environmentalists who sued to protect forest land.
The Clinton administration prohibited logging, mining and other development on 58.5 million acres of forest land in 38 states and Puerto Rico. In 2005, the Bush administration replaced the rule with a voluntary state-by-state petition process.
The judge overturned the new regulations.

**Dantheman** · 09-20-2006, 12:22 PM

Bush supreme court appeal in 3...2...1....

**Buster Highmen** · 09-20-2006, 12:25 PM

Gosh, I'm missing out.

**rideit** · 09-20-2006, 12:42 PM

Spew, how does supporting this reversal benefit you, personally?
What is your motive to support more roads, and subsequent degredation of forests, deserts, and other roadless areas?
Just curious.

**freshies** · 09-20-2006, 12:57 PM

yeah (golf clap)....let's hope they can hold this long enough for a new administration to come in...

**powwow/asap** · 09-20-2006, 12:58 PM

heres some reading about how you city slickers have been duped into thinking all logging is bad.the funny thing about the bush rule that the mainsteam media doesnt say is that THE STATES CAN MAKE THEIR OWN ROADLESS POLICY.shrub has already signed some east coast roadless plans.
in montana they said no new roads and are in the process of submitting plan to DC.Im all about the state dictating their roadless destiny.Except radical enviros hate that because they want it all to be gap ananisys 1 and 2.(ie Wildlands project)anti human anti access agenda brought about by wackos like Dave Foreman instituted by NGO,s UN and FS agenda driven grey haired limp wristed urbanites.read between the lies of the mainstream.Those pesky facts are about to get in the way.Ouch Truth Hurts.
THE GREAT LIE!!!!!!http://www.rangemagazine.com/special...an-forests.pdf
Taking Liberty How private property is being abolished in America
http://www.takingliberty.us
tales from the underground,we have to get out of this partisan realm and into the facts not junk science but real science.

**rideit** · 09-20-2006, 01:06 PM

Two stroke smoke reduces IQ's.

It's a fact!!

**Greydon Clark** · 09-20-2006, 01:22 PM

POWWOW, you better get back to those ESL classes ASAP, ‘cause this city slicker can barely understand a word your muttering. But I ran your post by my friends at Hooked on Phonics™, and it has been determined that majority of your statement is factually wrong.

**Ermine** · 09-20-2006, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by powwow/asap

Taking Liberty How private property is being abolished in America
http://www.takingliberty.us
tales from the underground,we have to get out of this partisan realm and into the facts not junk science but real science.

I watched quite a bit of it and I couldn't handle it any longer. No one has stolen my land from me in CO or UT? Sure there were facts in those presentations, but some of the statements (non facts) were horseshit. Now, what's wrong w/ providing animal corridors? The hunters and fishermen I know around here want more places to go, not less. Propoganda being distributed by developers. Boo, hoo, they can't develop every sqare inch of the West.

**Buster Highmen** · 09-20-2006, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by powwow/asap

heres some reading about how you city slickers have been duped into thinking all logging is bad.the funny thing about the bush rule that the mainsteam media doesnt say is that THE STATES CAN MAKE THEIR OWN ROADLESS POLICY.shrub has already signed some east coast roadless plans.
in montana they said no new roads and are in the process of submitting plan to DC.Im all about the state dictating their roadless destiny.Except radical enviros hate that because they want it all to be gap ananisys 1 and 2.(ie Wildlands project)anti human anti access agenda brought about by wackos like Dave Foreman instituted by NGO,s UN and FS agenda driven grey haired limp wristed urbanites.read between the lies of the mainstream.Those pesky facts are about to get in the way.Ouch Truth Hurts.
THE GREAT LIE!!!!!!http://www.rangemagazine.com/special...an-forests.pdf
Taking Liberty How private property is being abolished in America
http://www.takingliberty.us
tales from the underground,we have to get out of this partisan realm and into the facts not junk science but real science.

DFPPS....

**Jer** · 09-20-2006, 02:24 PM

Hi powwow.

Roadless rull good. Goodgoodgoodgood. Me vote for.

Logging bad. Owls good. Espresso better. (Organic Free Trade Carbon Neutral from leftist republics only.)

Heli skiing bad. Badbadbadbadbad. Me help file lawsuit against. You help now?

Please to post pics of ruptured coronary.

Have nice day.

**Telenater** · 09-20-2006, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Greydon Clark

it has been determined that majority of your statement is factually wrong.

Beat me to it.

**powwow/asap** · 09-20-2006, 03:41 PM

and your houses are made out of straw bales?
Good times getting ganged up on by lawyers etc.
Post a couple of harmless objective opinions and those tempers start a flyin.
I would like to see how the wildlands project is good for America please post any interesting liks.

What is gap analysis after all?
just wildlife corridors cute warm fuzzy corridors.
Agenda 21???? whats that???
Its good for you,trust me. the UN told me so.

Where are the spotted owls?

How many species have succesfully recovered from the ESA?
1 or 2 or 3?

Ski area expansions are held up by?
Environmental litigation? noooo not Environmental litigation,never.

Oh yeah I ride a four stroke.
just like your car
but you dont drive a car
you walk or ride your bike in the city.

herded like cattle

**rideit** · 09-20-2006, 03:43 PM

I use 100% biodiesel.

Four stroke sleds can't highmark for shit!!!

**cj001f** · 09-20-2006, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by powwow/asap

herded like cattle

cows are smarter than sheep(le)

**powwow/asap** · 09-20-2006, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by rideit

I use 100% biodiesel.

Four stroke sleds can't highmark for shit!!!

unless they are boosted

**LegoSkier** · 09-20-2006, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by powwow/asap

and your houses are made out of straw bales?
Good times getting ganged up on by lawyers etc.
Post a couple of harmless objective opinions and those tempers start a flyin.
I would like to see how the wildlands project is good for America please post any interesting liks.

What is gap analysis after all?
just wildlife corridors cute warm fuzzy corridors.
Agenda 21???? whats that???
Its good for you,trust me. the UN told me so.

Where are the spotted owls?

How many species have succesfully recovered from the ESA?
1 or 2 or 3?

Ski area expansions are held up by?
Environmental litigation? noooo not Environmental litigation,never.

Oh yeah I ride a four stroke.
just like your car
but you dont drive a car
you walk or ride your bike in the city.

herded like cattle

WTF?
Dude, can't you type in real sentences? Your post reads like the Tao Te Ching, except in this case the more I contemplate it, the stupider I get.

**powwow/asap** · 09-20-2006, 03:50 PM

I get my facts from rush limbaugh

**rideit** · 09-20-2006, 03:51 PM

well, we may no longer have F~IN~C, so now we have this mental midget.

**rideit** · 09-20-2006, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by powwow/asap

I get my drugs from rush limbaugh

telling.

**bdog** · 09-20-2006, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Spew

BIG FUCKING DEAL.
trees grow back. clearcuts are always reseeded. mine tailing piles make wicked gap jumps.
around here stupid hippies turn into stupid yuppies and instead of getting high they get anal retentive and file lawsuits about protecting wilderness areas they've NEVER EVEN BEEN TO. latest one was "DON"T SALVAGE LOG THE BURN AREA"
???????????????????????? idiots.

You might want to look into a paper published in the American Journal of Science in January of 2006. Written by Daniel C. Donato of Oregon State University.The paper was written after lengthy research on the Biscuit fire both before and after salvage logging. Their results led them to conclude that salvage logging reduced regrowth and heightened the short-term risk of another fire compared with burnt areas left alone. On test plots that had been logged, the median number of new tree seedlings was 71 per cent lower than on unlogged plots. What's more, there was significantly more woody debris left on the ground in the logged areas as a by-product of logging. That created a higher risk of fuelling additional forest fires that could damage or wipe out new trees, the researchers found.

so ... Who's the idiot?

**Jer** · 09-20-2006, 05:14 PM

Ah, Donato. Didn't he get fired for that bit of research? Seems it was an inconvenient truth for the paymasters. (And their witless minions.)

A couple of weeks after [Donato's] Science article appeared and infuriated the forest industry, the federal Bureau of Land Management, which footed the bill for the study of the Biscuit fire, cut off the final year of the three-year, $300,000 grant.
...
Within a week, the BLM backed down and restored the grant.

Oregon State University has officially scolded the forestry professors for inappropriate behavior and praised the authors of the Science article.

... there was a field hearing of the House subcommittee on forests and forest health, which is chaired by Walden, chief sponsor of the forest recovery bill that was cast in a dim light by the Science article.

Walden accused Donato, 29, of having failed to tell his federal research supervisor about the findings of his study, as is required ...

... Rep. Brian Baird (D-Wash.), another member of the subcommittee and a co-sponsor of the forest recovery bill, was even more disgruntled. He charged Donato with a long list of professional failings and character flaws, including "deliberate bias," lack of humility and ignorance of statistical theory.

Donato smiled nervously through these attacks and politely -- but firmly -- told the hearing that his article was solid on its facts and fair in its conclusions.
...
Salvage logging and replanting can often succeed, [Forestry Professor] Franklin said, if the intent is to turn a scorched landscape into a stand of trees for commercial harvest.

If, however, Congress wants to promote the ecologically sound recovery of burned federal forests, Franklin said, the overwhelming weight of scientific research suggests that "salvage logging is not going to be appropriate."

link

A Congressman accusing a grad student of bias, arrogance, and ignorance. That's rich!

**bdog** · 09-20-2006, 05:26 PM

I don't think Donato was fired. He did inadvertantly create quite a furor. Interestingly, when he began his research he had no agenda other than completing his Masters of forestry, and had no opinon's pro or con on salvage logging. There is much published now in regards to Hal Salwasser's (Dean of the OSU college of Forestry) bias and ties to the Timber lobby. When Salwasser learned that Science was going to publish Donato's paper he asked them not to! Incredible really that the Dean of the college would choose to block such an accomplishment (publication in Science) by a grad student. Following is an opinion published in the OREGONIAN last May:

Oregonian Opinion: The OSU Forestry Controversy

At last week's oversight hearing on forest science in Medford, Daniel Donato, a graduate student at Oregon State University's School of Forestry, was taught a harsh lesson in political science...

In today's climate, if a scientist follows his findings to wherever they lead, he risks sticking his neck into a congressional noose.

Donato's nationally recognized research suggested that commercial logging sets back recovery of forests in the first years after wildfires by crushing seedlings that grow naturally in the wake of fires and by creating tinder that invites future conflagrations.

Those findings are at odds with the official line of the Northwest timber industry and its supporters, including Reps. Greg Walden, R-Ore., and Brian Baird, D-Wash., who used the hearing to launch what bordered on a star chamber attack on the 29-year-old student's integrity as much as his research. That Walden and Baird are pushing a bill to expedite post-fire logging by easing environmental laws may be, of course, sheer coincidence.

Irony abounds.

Although Donato's findings are far from the last word on logging charred forests, they were peer-reviewed and published by the editors of Science magazine, one of the nation's premier scientific journals.

On the other hand, the spiritual sire of the Walden-Baird bill is a 2002 report by John Sessions, a professor at the OSU School of Forestry. Sessions' report contended that up to 2.5 billion board feet of timber could be commercially harvested in the area of the 2002 Biscuit fire in Southwestern Oregon -- in contrast to a 278 million board-foot cut that same year in Oregon and Washington combined -- with salutary effects on the Siskiyou National Forest. The Bush administration seized on those findings to
propose one of the largest timber cuts in history.

The record shows that Sessions' academic specialty is road engineering, that he was hired by the board of county commissions of timber-dependent Douglas County, that his team did not include one forest conservation biologist, that his work was not subjected to peer review and that he tried to quash the Donato article before Science magazine printed
it.

"It is unfortunate when people prematurely draw policy implications from single studies before the scientific process has finished its job," wrote Hal Salwasser, the dean of OSU's School of Forestry.

"Part of scientific integrity is making sure you don't make generalizations beyond the limitations of your data," intoned Baird.

Well, yes.

But remarkably, the comments of Salwasser and Baird were not directed at the Sessions report, which wasn't peer-reviewed, but at the Donato report, which was.

Last week a lot of folks came to Medford not to praise Donato, but to hang him. And John Sessions? No noose for him. In fact, the congressmen didn't call on him to defend his research or his censorship efforts. But that may have been sheer coincidence, too.

Les AuCoin, a Democrat, is a former U.S. congressman from Oregon who served for 12 years on the House Interior Appropriations Subcommittee, which oversees the U.S. Forest Service. He is a co-author of "Wildfire: A Century of Failed Forest Policy," to be published this spring by Island Press.