130+ flex, Upright, Narrow Heel—what boot am I?

[LiveLarger]

Upright boots are the tits.

How come? I'm genuinely curious as I'm in a pair of cochise pro light which are far from upright and considering a pair of dedicated "race" boots.

Edit: I see the question has already been answered. Never mind.

[LiveLarger]

being constantly forced into an extreme forward position that often results in the hips shooting back and the torso inclining forward - eg skiing in the back seat.

Not disagreeing with anything you said. Would just like to add that very often, the reason people end up in that position is because it's compensating for a lack of strength and often it can be cured with good old squats and deadlifts at the gym.

[Physicist]

There's no one forward lean that's appropriate for everyone -- the amount of forward lean (as well as bootboard zeppa and binding delta) you need to achieve optimum fore-aft balance depends on your body's geometry (as well as the strength and range of motion around all the involved joints, esp. the ankle, knee, and hip). A key attribute is femur:tibia ratio. Skiers with high femur:tibia ratios (typically found in taller skiers) tend to need more forward lean than those with lower femur:tibia ratios (typically found in shorter skiers).

Edit: The pics shown here might help illustrate this. [I'm not enough of an expert on alignment to know if knees-under-armpits is the proper criterion, but these pics do nicely show the relationship between forward lean and body geometry when it comes to fore-aft balance.]: https://www.j2ski.com/ski-chat-forum...ist/12025.page

[BushwackerinPA]

There's no one forward lean that's appropriate for everyone -- the amount of forward lean (as well as bootboard zeppa and binding delta) you need to achieve optimum fore-aft balance depends on your body's geometry (as well as the strength and range of motion around all the involved joints, esp. the ankle, knee, and hip). A key attribute is femur:tibia ratio. Skiers with high femur:tibia ratios (typically found in taller skiers) tend to need more forward lean than those with lower femur:tibia ratios (typically found in shorter skiers).

this is the best post in this thread.

[creaky fossil]

Maybe for you, but I think it's a better post if it stops here:

There's no one forward lean that's appropriate for everyone

The femur/tibia ratio thing is contrary to the quoted statement if you use it as a rough rule, as suggested. Better to say each person's physiological setup will find its own balance neutral and it may require different adjustments from others, even others of the same height/weight/build.

I have stupid long femurs for my height, and less forward lean in a boot is good for me. The rough rule Physicist mentions would suggest I need more, not less, in the fwd lean category. So, the general statement I quoted trumps the rough rule.

I prefer to think about upright boots like this: if you have the right flex, you are flexed into the boot and using it dynamically when you ski. If you're in a bigger forward lean boot, some of that flex has been taken away because to get more extended/upright, you'd have to rearward flex the cuff against its stop(s). Or flex the tails of the ski like Patrick Russell. But all that sounds pretty awkward to me and likely to take you out of balance.

[BushwackerinPA]

Maybe for you, but I think it's a better post if it stops here:



The femur/tibia ratio thing is contrary to the quoted statement if you use it as a rough rule, as suggested. Better to say each person's physiological setup will find its own balance neutral and it may require different adjustments from others, even others of the same height/weight/build.

I have stupid long femurs for my height, and less forward lean in a boot is good for me. The rough rule Physicist mentions would suggest I need more, not less, in the fwd lean category. So, the general statement I quoted trumps the rough rule.

I prefer to think about upright boots like this: if you have the right flex, you are flexed into the boot and using it dynamically when you ski. If you're in a bigger forward lean boot, some of that flex has been taken away because to get more extended/upright, you'd have to rearward flex the cuff against its stop(s). Or flex the tails of the ski like Patrick Russell. But all that sounds pretty awkward to me and likely to take you out of balance.

eh the last paragraph makes no sense at all.

first if you have to flex a boot to find balance your are to upright......

Second if you have to rearward flex your boot to extend then you are going to upright.

also what does dynamically mean to you? the word get thrown around quite a bit but I am not sure anyone know what it means.

[Physicist]

The femur/tibia ratio thing is contrary to the quoted statement if you use it as a rough rule, as suggested...I have stupid long femurs for my height, and less forward lean in a boot is good for me. The rough rule Physicist mentions would suggest I need more, not less, in the fwd lean category.

Not necessarily -- I think you might have misread/misinterpreted my femur-length example (which might have been my fault for not making it clearer). When I said a skier with a higher rel. femur length tends to need more fwd lean, by "tends" I meant "everything else being equal." I.e., what I was saying is that there are many factors that affect what your fwd lean should be and, if we just look at one factor as an example (rel. femur length), as this increases you'd need more fwd lean. I.e., I didn't mean that someone with a long femur needs a lot of fwd lean, I meant that this one factor would tend to affect fwd lean in this way. So, looking at your specific case, I would say that, if we kept everything else the same, but made your femur even longer, you would need more fwd lean as a result of just that specific change.

Of course, as your example demonstrates, it's a complicated system. And fore-aft is particularly tricky to dial in, because you're working with an inter-related combination of orthotic, bootboard zeppa, cuff angle, boot flex, and binding delta. I know one expert skier for whom a 1 mm adjustment in his binding delta was the difference between feeling balanced on edge and not. An alignment expert (and there are relatively few that really understand how to do this -- I'm certainly not one of them) can do a pretty good job getting close in the shop, but it typically takes an on-snow assessment, including video, to get it really dialed. Further, I'm assuming a certain paradigm of skiing movement that might not correspond to how you ski -- i.e., where an alignment expert might say you're balanced might not initially feel right to you if you don't ski that way.

[auvgeek]

Thanks. Interesting that you've heard that about the stiffness of the ZJ vs. the RS 140. I spoke to a fellow in Lange's race dept., and he told me that the RS 140 was between the ZA and ZB in stiffness.

Well, I'm pretty sure the RS 130 and RS 140 are the same shell with a different liner. So my guess is the RS 140 isn't stiffer than the ZA. A bootfitter told me the ZJ was stiffer than the 140 because it has stiffer plastic in the lower. Not sure if he is correct about that, and I've since lost confidence in his abilities (long story that I started to type, but decided it wasn't worth it).

So I saw a new boot fitter yesterday. I told him I wasn't married to the ZBs, and he should fit me in whatever he thought was best. After watching me blow through the flex in the RS 130, he had me flex the ZB and Scorpion 130 side-by-side with one on each foot (both shells cold--had to use a shell spreader to get into the ZBs). He said they looked about the same in stiffness, but the Lange had more rebound. Honestly, they felt very similar to me with maybe a little more stiffness and rebound on the Lange...but I'm not the most symmetrical person (2 surgeries on my left side, one current knee issue on my right) so it can be hard to tell. He concluded that he thinks the ZB is probably the best boot for me and thinks he can make them fit, so I guess we'll see.

Hope that helps on flex. You probably know what you want based on my description above, but my advice: if you want them to flex like the Scorpion, you'll probably be happier in the ZB. If the Scorpion felt too stiff at times, maybe the ZA+ will be fine. Since Lange boots are more upright, maybe you won't need/want them quite as stiff?

I really hope to be skiing the ZBs this week to provide more specific feedback. I dropped the boots off and I forgot to get the info you wanted. I'll try to do that by the end of the week.

[Two06]

Plug boots are tits. I got into Tecnica R9.3 this year and the heel hold is amazing. Takes a lot of grinding and punching to make it fit through the met heads and big toe, took awhile to get it dialed. I went little by little with the extra room to make sure I didn't get too much room.

[Physicist]

....I really hope to be skiing the ZBs this week to provide more specific feedback. I dropped the boots off and I forgot to get the info you wanted. I'll try to do that by the end of the week.

Thanks again. Your flex comparison was very helpful.
Look forward to hearing how they compare for you ski-wise!

[creaky fossil]

eh the last paragraph makes no sense at all.

first if you have to flex a boot to find balance your are to upright......

Second if you have to rearward flex your boot to extend then you are going to upright.

also what does dynamically mean to you? the word get thrown around quite a bit but I am not sure anyone know what it means.

holy shit it's like the Stowe area's version of stuckathuntermtn. solipsistic ignorance buoyed by a TGR ego gambit.

first, doesn't make any sense at all. so you ski with a fixed angle at the ankle and knee? interesting. must be a dolphin turn specialty or something.

second, while trying (and failing) to be funny, you made yourself so stupid you didn't see I was offering an impossibility. you're not Russell, and you're neither strong nor agile enough to deflect the spine of your boot aftward.

third, only you would use the term "dynamic" and give it an entirely new meaning unfamiliar to those who have taken mechanics or physics or any hard science.

go back to telling others they're wrong, while it's you who isn't correct. that bit suits you and stuckie like a surgeon's glove.

Not necessarily -- I think you might have misread/misinterpreted my femur-length example (which might have been my fault for not making it clearer).

actually it was my reading of good ol' joshie's boilerplate endorsement of his own reading of your femur length example, I am just busting ol' joshie's chops since he has that immense arrogance of the newly converted/newly instructed. sorta why I posed the Patrick Russell reference for Mister Dolphin Turn. joshie's good at taking a narrow point and understanding it as a blanket rule. which he did here. for the thousandbillionth time on TGR.

he's still way easier to stomach than brian "I'm the true expert here!" lindahl.

[Physicist]

Hi auvgeek. I decided to just go ahead and order the ZB's for try-on -- probably from the same place you got yours. Here's what I found:

Stiffness: In a warm room (75 F) (so I could get them on and off easily!), the ZB's were noticeably softer than the SR130's (I swapped the boots L-R to make sure this wasn't due to my own asymmetries -- I can flex more strongly with my R leg). Correspondingly, the ZB's were a bit easier to take on and off. I know this isn't what you found -- maybe that's because, while they're both listed as being made from PE, the Lange's PE is more temp-sensitive, such that at colder temps (e.g., the temp you tried them at) the relative stiffnesses would be reversed. Or maybe Lange softens the stiffness more for smaller sizes (I'm in a 24.5) than does Dalbello. Or maybe, as you mentioned might have been the case, you tried the Lange with your weaker leg. Don't know.

Geometry: When I measured the two with a digital inclinometer, I found the ZB's had about 2 degrees less fwd lean than the SR130's (13 vs 15). EDIT: I just measured the zeppa of the bootboards on the Dalbello Scorpion and the Lange ZB. Contrary to Dabello's 1.5 degree claim, the flatter (yellow) one is within a few tenths of 3 degrees -- same as the Lange ZB's. [And Dalbello's white one, which they say is 4.5 degrees, is 4 degrees.] For both the Scorpion and the ZB, the bootboards gain just a few tenths of inclination (~0.3) when they're put into the boots.

Fit: The ZB's, without any modification, fit surprisingly well. I've got a curved foot, and the ZB's last seemed more curved than than on the Lange RS's. They were definitely narrower than the SR130's (including in the heel), but really only need a bit of widening at/around a couple of pressure points in the forefoot. The ZB's instep is a bit lower than the SR130's, but once its bootboard is ground down to have the same zeppa I expect the ZB might actually have even more instep height (maybe too much!).

I did have three issues when flexing forward in the ZB that I don't have in the SR130 -- maybe because I can flex it more: (1) The bottom edge of the lower cuff strap pushed down on my instep; that's not an uncommon issue, and a good bootfitter should have no problem "shaving" the plastic to fix it. (2) The upper edge of the lower cuff strap, if I buckled it reasonably tightly, bit into my shin. (3) There's uncomfortable pressure against my achilles, just above my heel. Again, all three of these are just when flexing strongly.

Foot placement: I think the ZB positions the foot more medially than does the SR130; thus the ZB puts the foot relatively closer to the inside edge, while the SR130 puts it relatively closer to the outside. Correspondingly, it felt easier to do one-footed balance on the inside edges with the ZB's, and on the outside edges with the SR130's (so, hypothetically, the SR130 would help my balance during the transition, while the ZB would help me balance on the inside edge of the outside ski during the rest of the turn). Also, holding onto my TRX, I put myself into a heavily hip-angulated position with both boots, to try to get a sense of how they would compare when pressuring the inside edge. They both did well, but the contact felt more direct with the ZB's (consistent with the foot being a bit more medially positioned).

[auvgeek]

Those are excellent impressions!! Thanks very much for posting.

A problem for me (which I've mentioned before) is the boots are so much narrower than my feet that it's impossible for me to get decent impressions (on either boot) before a serious amount of punching is done, and at that point you're evaluating the bootfitters abilities as well as the boot. Also, I bet the Scorpions are easier to get on/off because the cuff was stood upright more, which opened up the "throat" of the lower. Never messing with the cuff like that again. Regarding the heel hold, I think Lange's heel is narrower, but not quite as deep. Maybe just my anatomy or the way the boots were shaped by the fitter.

I did ski the ZBs for a few hours before I left town, and I think it's a very good boot. Maybe I was just giddy about skiing new boots, but I think I noticed a difference in edging power, and I don't think my Scorpions ever skied quite as well. But they are a little softer than I'd like in forward and rearward flex, and after skiing them, I agree that they are definitely softer than the Scorpion. I kind of wish I'd bought the ZC, but at the time it seemed like overkill. The difference in forward lean was definitely apparent to me, though.

Hope this helps someone making this decision, and sorry I wasn't able to post anything useful before Physicist bought the boot.

[Physicist]

auvgeek, what's the maximum you can gas pedal your Scorpions? You get about a 1 degree reduction in forward lean for every 5 mm of toe raise. If you could put the cuff back to its original position, that might be worth a try. To replicate the Lange, I'd estimate you'd need about 2 degrees (10 mm) which is probably not doable, but maybe you can come close enough. If you can put the cuff back, you could use varying-thickness plastic shims under the toe while standing in the boots to see how much it feels like you need. The problem is this decreases your net bootboard angle (zeppa), but that can be increased internally to compensate (especially if you're currently using the flatter [yellow] bootboard).

[auvgeek]

Can't put the cuff back. The boot was pushed more upright with a hydraulic press (and some heat in the achilles area). Plus, that same bootfitter ground the 5th met head on the right boot too thin so it can't be punched further, despite needing it. So I needed new boots anyway.

But my initial impressions are quite positive, and, at this point in time, I don't see why the ZB won't work. Maybe in 5 years, I'll grab a ZC.

[Physicist]

When they put your cuffs more upright, did they use this?: http://southernski.com/toe-jam-sprea...stretcher.html

I just had my Scorpions aligned. They said they had a bit too much forward lean for me as well! They said I could try gas-pedaling it more and increasing the zeppa to compensate, but I really don't have enough room over the instep to do that. [Note also my edit on the bootboard zeppas of the ZB vs. the SR130 -- turns out they're both about 3 degrees; not sure why the Dalbello initially felt flatter to me -- maybe something else about the boot's geometry.]

They also said I needed the R cuff tilted in; they were able to get most (but not all) the needed title by substituting asymmetrical Head canting bolts.

One suggestion they made to reduce forward lean was to get a pair of those shims that velcro to the back of the cuff to increase forward lean, and put them between the tongue and the shell. The downside, though is that this pulls your heel out of the pocket. They said my heel has a medium-sized backward swoop to it, but that the Dalbello has a deep heel pocket, so moving me forward puts me even more out of the pocket than I am right now.

[auvgeek]

When they put your cuffs more upright, did they use this?: http://southernski.com/toe-jam-sprea...stretcher.html

Essentially, yeah. It wasn't that guy, but same concept.

One suggestion they made to reduce forward lean was to get a pair of those shims that velcro to the back of the cuff to increase forward lean, and put them between the tongue and the shell. The downside, though is that this pulls your heel out of the pocket. They said my heel has a medium-sized backward swoop to it, but that the Dalbello has a deep heel pocket, so moving me forward puts me even more out of the pocket than I am right now.

Yeah, building up the tongue of the liners was offered as a solution to me, but that seemed like a band-aid kinda fix. You don't want to keep the ZBs because they're too soft and of the fit issues you outlined previously?

[Physicist]

You don't want to keep the ZBs because they're too soft and of the fit issues you outlined previously?

Yup. I gave it more thought, and remembered that it's really important to have a boot that's a pretty good fit out-of-the-box* -- in the past when I've had boots that weren't quite there to start, I was never able to dial them in fit-wise. Thus I wasn't sure if I'd be successful at getting the ZB's to be comfortable. Plus I had to fly out to the shop to do the alignment on the Scorpions, and we didn't have time to do the ZB's. I'd really like to try the 2016-17 DRS Scorpion 130's, which are supposed to be have the same geometry as their current DRS WC (more upright); plus they're supposed to retain the adjustable cuffs, and the plastic flex panels to make entry and exit easier, that were introduced recently to the Scorpion line. If those fit similarly to my current Scorpions, we may have a winner.

*EDIT: I forgot to mention that, after spending a lot more time in the ZB's (an hour, as opposed to 15 min), I realized the ZB's fit on me is a bit more problematic than initially appeared.