Mantra construction??

[Jim S]

I wasn't upset. I mean, if she can't ski I should expect her to be literate too?

[SquawMan]

I wasn't upset. I mean, if she can't ski I should expect her to be literate too?

tell the truth Jim.... what she really said was "...you rip on Explosivs, but I'll kick your ass on my Mantras!"

http://www.biglines.com/videos/SIA05/volkl.wmv

[Altaholic]

HOLY CRAP Ingrid Backstrom is freaking HOT!!!! I could listen to her talk about skis all day with her head on my pillow. Hmmmmm.

I would second that, actually I got compacted in the snowbird tram once this year and right front of me was Ingrid. I talked to her for a few minutes, REALLY NICE person.

Just to throw this in, I ski with a pro volkl rider at snowbird now and then; Kelly Holland. We are just buddies, nothing will ever happen which is fine with me though she is one of my favorite local buddies to rip with , but she is still a bombshell skier who looks like Ingrid, & rips almost like her too.

She definitly in my opinion is one of the few girls that look like that she will make it big in a year or two, she had a so-so year in comps in the whole world tour, but got 5th at Kirkwood. That crash down North Chute at the Snowbird comp she had scared me when iI saw vid clips of it on biglines after I missed her run by five minutes. Amazing that she skied away from it with just a few bruises, no breaks at all . Her Friend/Roomate Rachel Burks is just as gnarly of skier as well.

[squaretail]

1. It may have similar construction but 'similar' is not 'same'.

Both skis have full, vertically laminated, epoxy-impregnated wood cores with .8mm titanal belts top an bottom, with the whole thing wrapped in fiberglass.

They are 99.99% the same. The only difference is how the glass is layed up. The Explosiv was a traditional "wet wrap" ski whereas the Mantra is a new woven glass fiber. The result is that the Mantra is more torsionally rigid while being a micron softer in the tip - something that is neccessary to make the increased sidecut depth work properly.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Can someone please enlighten me as why mo sidecut is better on a 90+mm ski not designed to specialize in the groomed. I'm not saying the Matra will suck, I haven't tried it. But all the fat skies I've ridden with even moderate side cut were disapointing. Just wondering.

[Buster Highmen]

Can someone please enlighten me as why mo sidecut is better on a 90+mm ski not designed to specialize in the groomed. I'm not saying the Matra will suck, I haven't tried it. But all the fat skies I've ridden with even moderate side cut were disapointing. Just wondering.

When I ask that question, some people tell me I don't know how to ski. This only goes to bolster a wondrous sense of fanatasy. Whose, I'm not sure.

[SquawMan]

Can someone please enlighten me as why mo sidecut is better on a 90+mm ski not designed to specialize in the groomed. I'm not saying the Matra will suck, I haven't tried it. But all the fat skies I've ridden with even moderate side cut were disapointing. Just wondering.

I didn't find it hooked up in the steeps at all

most people who have skied both Exploders and Mantras come away liking the Mantra more, but there are more similarities than differences

[Jim S]

Tangentially, I have the new 179cm Seth Vicious which has moderate side cut (more than my Exploders) and a 98mm waist. I think it's a great ski and was more than fine on ultrasteeps like Squaw's Palisades. I still love my Exploders though.

I'm sure I'll have to make Squawman happy and pickup a pair of Mantra 184cm unless I add the 189cm Vicious to the quiver.

[SquawMan]

I'm sure I'll have to make Squawman happy and pickup a pair of Mantra 184cm unless I add the 189cm Vicious to the quiver.

you don't need a 184 Mantra, you need a 191 Mantra

do it for Ingrid, Jim

[Jim S]

you don't need a 184 Mantra, you need a 191 Mantra

do it for Ingrid, Jim

With my quiver 180 Exploder, 186 Legend Pro, 179 Vicious, I don't need anything.

But you are absolutely correct. Probably 191 if I get the Mantra

[mtbakerskier]

Squaman you have no bussiness mounting skis, go to a shop have them do it, they have a clue, and wont screw it up, like you are gaurenteed to do.

All foam core skis should use a 3.6 dia bit, all others a 4.1

Drill all adult skis to 9mm only use a short drill on kid skis.

This is prety basic stuff, and if you have questions about it you really have no bussiness mounting skis.

[mtbakerskier]

Both skis have full, vertically laminated, epoxy-impregnated wood cores with .8mm titanal belts top an bottom, with the whole thing wrapped in fiberglass.

They are 99.99% the same. The only difference is how the glass is layed up. The Explosiv was a traditional "wet wrap" ski whereas the Mantra is a new woven glass fiber. The result is that the Mantra is more torsionally rigid while being a micron softer in the tip - something that is neccessary to make the increased sidecut depth work properly.

]
Uhh.... dude research before you speak, Both skis use wet lay-up Woven glass fiber is used in wet layup. The explosive has a thiker metal layer in the top sheet than the lower sheet. Yes, different orietaions / sixzing of glass will results in a diferent modulous, but so will different core thicknesses.

[SquawMan]

grant (Mtbakerskier)....I'm definitely having a shop mount the bindings...don't worry, I'm not going to do it myself

I'll let the pro's handle it

fyi...squaretail is the exec at Volkl who is in charge of the Mantra

[squaretail]

]
Uhh.... dude research before you speak, Both skis use wet lay-up Woven glass fiber is used in wet layup. The explosive has a thiker metal layer in the top sheet than the lower sheet. Yes, different orietaions / sixzing of glass will results in a diferent modulous, but so will different core thicknesses.

With all due respect, Mt. Baker, I've done my research, and I'll stand by what I've said. Regardless of the terms you'd like to use, the glass layup between the red Explosiv and the Mantra is quite different and this is the primary reason why there is a difference in "feel" between them.

You do raise an interesting point on the Explosiv. Explosiv construction experienced several tweaks during its ten year run. The most recent (and last) version was noticeably softer flexing than the original orange/yellow model from '94.

The most significant change to the Explosiv came around 1997 when we stopped using the original "solid" wood core and moved to the multi-piece vertically laminated core.

SquawMan, thanks for the backup. In the interest of accuracy, I'm not "in charge" of the Mantra. However, I am tied closely enough with the company that I am well aware of how it, as well as its' forefathers, were built.

[Vicious]

The only thing I know how to mount is my g/f; I don't know about the Mantra mountings.

Show off! hah

[squaretail]

All foam core skis should use a 3.6 dia bit, all others a 4.1

That's not what the Völkl tech manual says.

Just trying to keep things accurate...

[mtbakerskier]

Squaretail, no mater what type of glass you are using, I.E. Woving, Mat or Uni, unless you are using a pre-preg material than it is WET-LAYUP. Since you are usig a epoxy-impregnated wood core, it would be pointless to use a pre-preg.

It is a pet-peave of mine when people talk about ski construction when they dont use the correct terminology.

As for the drill diameter size, using a 3.6 dia bit with the standard screws supplied with adult bindings, that have a 4.1internal dia will increase the chance of interlaminar delamination, and splitting in the core, while there is a slim chance in this happing it is more likely, then if you used a 4.1 bit. Foam coares need a 3.6 to ensure better pull-out strenght, and since foam will give and compress more than wood, the more interferance caused by the smaller hole dia is less of a issue. If you do a pull out test- I would be willing to bet that your data supports this.

[SquawMan]

grant, I think squaretail may have answered it in post #11.....





05-13-2005, 09:06 AM
squaretail
Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by SquawMan
are you a Volkl rep? why would a shop agree to do that if the sticker on the ski says 3.6? won't it void the warranty?

I'm not a sales rep, but yes, I am linked to the company. I mainly lurk here, enjoying all the posts and wildy different opinions. I've only posted myself to clear up any specific questions relevant to our gear - and I try to do so in an unbiased manner as possible.

Regarding the shops and warranty, there are very few Mantras out there at retail right now - less than 30 pair, and they're at a small handful of shops. We've communicated to those shops that the 3.6 marking is an error. Mounting with a 4.1 would not void a warranty - quite the opposite, actually. You're more likely to hurt the ski if you try to force the screws through a 3.6 hole in the titanal. Though it will usually work, you can volcano the titanal if you're careless.

[mtbakerskier]

grant, I think squaretail may have answered it in post #11.....





05-13-2005, 09:06 AM
squaretail
Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by SquawMan
are you a Volkl rep? why would a shop agree to do that if the sticker on the ski says 3.6? won't it void the warranty?

I'm not a sales rep, but yes, I am linked to the company. I mainly lurk here, enjoying all the posts and wildy different opinions. I've only posted myself to clear up any specific questions relevant to our gear - and I try to do so in an unbiased manner as possible.

Regarding the shops and warranty, there are very few Mantras out there at retail right now - less than 30 pair, and they're at a small handful of shops. We've communicated to those shops that the 3.6 marking is an error. Mounting with a 4.1 would not void a warranty - quite the opposite, actually. You're more likely to hurt the ski if you try to force the screws through a 3.6 hole in the titanal. Though it will usually work, you can volcano the titanal if you're careless.

I was just pointing out there error here :

That's not what the Völkl tech manual says.

Just trying to keep things accurate...

[evans]

The mantras absolutely need to be mounted at 4.1mm, in addition, the mounting point is too far forward. Putting your bindings here will make the tips dive too much. Try 1 to 2cm back, 1.5 is about perfect for AT gear.

[squaretail]

Squaretail, no mater what type of glass you are using, I.E. Woving, Mat or Uni, unless you are using a pre-preg material than it is WET-LAYUP. Since you are usig a epoxy-impregnated wood core, it would be pointless to use a pre-preg..

It is a pet-peave of mine when people talk about ski construction when they dont use the correct terminology.

Grant, if I may call you that, this is really all much ado about nothing. I think we are getting hung up with my use of the word "wet." If so, I never implied that the woven glass isn't wet. The difference is how the glass gets into the press. In the process I originally called "wet-wrap," strips of fiberglass are literally wrapped around the core assembly before it goes into the press. With the process I referred to as "weaving" the glass is woven into a "sock" that is placed, by, hand, over the core assembly before it goes into the press. It is true that both techniques would be considered "wet."

As for the drill diameter size, using a 3.6 dia bit with the standard screws supplied with adult bindings, that have a 4.1internal dia will increase the chance of interlaminar delamination, and splitting in the core, while there is a slim chance in this happing it is more likely, then if you used a 4.1 bit. Foam coares need a 3.6 to ensure better pull-out strenght, and since foam will give and compress more than wood, the more interferance caused by the smaller hole dia is less of a issue. If you do a pull out test- I would be willing to bet that your data supports this.

I won't disagree with any of that. My issue would be with a "foam" core ski that has a titanal topsheet. Though this construction is not common, it does exist, and it's my experience that they should be drilled with a 4.1mm and tapped.

Hopefully, this is all put to rest. I only posted here in the first place to answer a specific question about one of our products, not get called out for not "doing my research."

All that aside, nice images. If you ever shoot with a Volkl athlete, PM me.

[Tap]

i read this thread and only saw

TAP and INGRID

purely coincidence, I'm assuming.

[El Chupacabra]

All foam core skis should use a 3.6 dia bit, all others a 4.1

Old post, old thread, but bumped up recently... and since I'm just watching the heavy rainfall out the window right now instead of working, I'll post:

I thought 4.1 bits were for metal topsheet skis, and 3.6 for all other adult skis (foam or wood, basically anything but metal). Seems to me that I read this in Tognar's instructions or something of that nature. I've mounted several wood core skis with a 3.6 bit, no problems so far.

Anyone care to clarify?

[Conundrum]

I've mounted several wood core skis with a 3.6 bit, no problems so far.

Anyone care to clarify?

The wood core skis you've mounted either didn't have a metal sheet that the holes went through or you mounted them incorrectly by using a 3.6 mm bit when you should have used a 4.1 and tap.

You use a 4.1 and tap with metal so you don't fuck up the screw threads when screwing them in.

In other news, haven't heard back from the Craigslist guy about the Volkls but will let you know when I do.

[El Chupacabra]

The wood core skis you've mounted either didn't have a metal sheet that the holes went through or you mounted them incorrectly by using a 3.6 mm bit when you should have used a 4.1 and tap.

You use a 4.1 and tap with metal so you don't fuck up the screw threads when screwing them in.

In other news, haven't heard back from the Craigslist guy about the Volkls but will let you know when I do.

Right - should've clarified, my post was confusing -- none of the wood core skis I've mounted with a 3.6 bit had a metal topsheet. What I was asking about was Grant's statement that 3.6 bit should be used only on foam core skis, and the 4.1 bit on all other skis. This contradicts Tognar:

Info from Tognar:

"The 3.6 x 9mm bit is best for most adult alpine skis; the 4.1 x 9mm bit is for metal laminate alpine skis or those with a metal or titanal mounting plate internally located in the ski; the 3.5 x 7mm bit is for junior alpine skis; and the 3.6 x 14.5mm bit is for adult nordic (x-c) skis."

http://www.tognar.com/binding_tools_....html#SPK-DB39

And thanks on the Volkl info too -- keeping my fingers crossed that it'll come through.