Tammy Wynette cannot be reached for help-Divorce advice

[LHutz Esq]

In the eyes of the law it doesn't matter who does what to whom to destroy the marriage. The divorce industry favors women in the outcome. That particular piece of inequity seems to be absent from the feminist equality discussions.

Actually this is a common misconception. The literature I have read has been consistent that women and children come out behind after divorce.

Here is an example - https://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/researc...s/iser/2014-30

There are anecdotal cases to the contrary but in my opinion the reason this persists is that men may have higher expectations of what they "diserve" coming out of a divorce. So even though they come out ahead - they feel they have lost.

I think this trend may be changing as more women become the higher earner.

[Gcooker]

When I made that comment, it was meant to shine light on the turning of the tables.

Maybe men don't know it, but little old ladies still warn young women to keep their man satisfied...

The comment was not meant to be taken personally, and I'm sorry you did.

When a class of people (white men) have held all the power for a very long time as soon as they start to lose some of that power, it feels like they are being screwed when, actually things are just a little more equal...

Hey that's fair. Thanks.

Sadly I think social media has a massive impact on "satisfaction" in marriages. I'm not talking sexually, that is at least face to face. My ex spent every waking minute on her phone browsing through photos, commenting on other peoples relationships. I pulled away because it drove me crazy and if I brought it up I was met with anger. It's too easy to see phony ass people portraying happiness while being truly miserable on social media. I get what you're saying but there is a lot more at play now than there was in the past.

[My Pet Powder Goat]

Hey that's fair. Thanks.

Sadly I think social media has a massive impact on "satisfaction" in marriages. I'm not talking sexually, that is at least face to face. My ex spent every waking minute on her phone browsing through photos, commenting on other peoples relationships. I pulled away because it drove me crazy and if I brought it up I was met with anger. It's too easy to see phony ass people portraying happiness while being truly miserable on social media. I get what you're saying but there is a lot more at play now than there was in the past.

There's been some definitive research to back up that statement

[anonalias]

He doesnt roam. At least that was what my mother and grandmother's were told.

So, this line of thinking is part of what fucked up my marriage. Not that women have to keep their man satisfied or they'll wander, but resentment at the idea that their body is a part of any kind of relationship transaction.

Physical affection is a part of the relationship, and a relationship is not actually transactional. So, just as withholding emotional support or not participating in household chores or parenting isn't appropriate, neither is withholding sex or physical affirmation. I think the problem is viewing it as any kind of transaction in the first place. It isn't. Either you're participating in the relationship or you aren't. It isn't give and take. It's give. And it's take. If your needs are getting met, your partner is fulfilling their side of the relationship. If your partners needs are getting met, you're fulfilling your side of the relationship. The second you make this shit tit for tat you go down a dark twisted path of whoredom and sexual transaction.

So, yeah, if my physical needs aren't met (assuming they're reasonable and I have some perspective on that) I'm going to be looking at my partner to either address that or I'm going to be seeking a new relationship. That's how that shit works.

So, to bring it home.... grandma’s admonition to satisfy your man is appropriate. Where society might be missing is where grandpa isn’t in turn admonishing his grandson to take care of his partner’s needs.

[AK47bp]

So, this line of thinking is part of what fucked up my marriage. Not that women have to keep their man satisfied or they'll wander, but resentment at the idea that their body is a part of any kind of relationship transaction.

Physical affection is a part of the relationship, and a relationship is not actually transactional. So, just as withholding emotional support or not participating in household chores or parenting isn't appropriate, neither is withholding sex or physical affirmation. I think the problem is viewing it as any kind of transaction in the first place. It isn't. Either you're participating in the relationship or you aren't. It isn't give and take. It's give. And it's take. If your needs are getting met, your partner is fulfilling their side of the relationship. If your partners needs are getting met, you're fulfilling your side of the relationship. The second you make this shit tit for tat you go down a dark twisted path of whoredom and sexual transaction.

So, yeah, if my physical needs aren't met (assuming they're reasonable and I have some perspective on that) I'm going to be looking at my partner to either address that or I'm going to be seeking a new relationship. That's how that shit works.

So, to bring it home.... grandma’s admonition to satisfy your man is appropriate. Where society might be missing is where grandpa isn’t in turn admonishing his grandson to take care of his partner’s needs.

Sounds like she may have some preexisting "physical affection" baggage maybe from a prior relationship.

Did she ever work with a guy named Harvey Weinstein?

[mtngirl79]

So, this line of thinking is part of what fucked up my marriage. Not that women have to keep their man satisfied or they'll wander, but resentment at the idea that their body is a part of any kind of relationship transaction.

Physical affection is a part of the relationship, and a relationship is not actually transactional. So, just as withholding emotional support or not participating in household chores or parenting isn't appropriate, neither is withholding sex or physical affirmation. I think the problem is viewing it as any kind of transaction in the first place. It isn't. Either you're participating in the relationship or you aren't. It isn't give and take. It's give. And it's take. If your needs are getting met, your partner is fulfilling their side of the relationship. If your partners needs are getting met, you're fulfilling your side of the relationship. The second you make this shit tit for tat you go down a dark twisted path of whoredom and sexual transaction.

So, yeah, if my physical needs aren't met (assuming they're reasonable and I have some perspective on that) I'm going to be looking at my partner to either address that or I'm going to be seeking a new relationship. That's how that shit works.

It goes both ways, tho. If a partner says or does some asshole thing or there is an unresolved fight, it's reasonable to not feel like having sex until it's resolved.

Never having physical affection or sex is a problem.

This is where we had the big blow out before.

A healthy relationship has sex and physical affection.

That doesn't mean it's owed. It means if it's not there, there is a problem that needs resolved.

[anonalias]

Sure. I can give of my self my best when my own needs are met. I’m not saying it’s not circular, only that it isn’t transactional. There’s a false equivalence drawn between “better take care of your man” and “I’ll take care of my man if he takes care of me.” It’s not owed, which isn’t to say that it isn’t expected as a component of a healthy relationship.

If your needs aren’t met, the answer is to discuss that and try to achieve a resolution. The second you use sex (or chores, or attention, or whatever) as a bargaining chip things get really broken really quickly.

[KQ]

Just gonna put this here... men aren't the only cheaters.....


The changing reasons why women cheat on their husbands

[mtngirl79]

Sounds like she may have some preexisting "physical affection" baggage maybe from a prior relationship.

Did she ever work with a guy named Harvey Weinstein?

Probably.

[anonalias]

Probably.

Definitely. I hope she works it out for the next guy.

[that dude who did that thing]

anonalias, I think you've expressed a pretty healthy view of relationships. And as I've written elsewhere (though everybody tends to ignore that part), you can do nearly all of the right things and still end up in a shitty place.

[mtngirl79]

Sure. I can give of my self my best when my own needs are met. I’m not saying it’s not circular, only that it isn’t transactional. There’s a false equivalence drawn between “better take care of your man” and “I’ll take care of my man if he takes care of me.” It’s not owed, which isn’t to say that it isn’t expected as a component of a healthy relationship.

If your needs aren’t met, the answer is to discuss that and try to achieve a resolution. The second you use sex (or chores, or attention, or whatever) as a bargaining chip things get really broken really quickly.

Yeah. It's a complicated thing. Most long term relationships I have been cycled between periods of tons of sex and less. I think that's normal.

[RootSkier]

Just gonna put this here... men aren't the only cheaters.....


The changing reasons why women cheat on their husbands

Well that's fucking grim as all get out. Thanks.

[oftpiste]

I'm not sure I think "men get screwed in divorces" as much as divorce sucks for everyone and is expensive.

You are categorically incorrect about the first thought, though the second statement is true. You can be unsure of what you think all you want, but the truth is there. Ask any divorce attorney. The system favors women.

[mtngirl79]

Just gonna put this here... men aren't the only cheaters.....


The changing reasons why women cheat on their husbands

http://nymag.com/betamale/2016/05/wo...sequences.html

It is, perhaps, another milestone in the march to equality. Women and men are now taking an equal-opportunity approach to extramarital hanky-panky. A report out of the Kinsey Institute at Indiana University found that, for the first time in modern history, women are cheating at nearly the same rate as men. Another study, published in the National Opinion Research Center’s 2013 General Social Survey, found that while the percentage of men who admitted to infidelity has held constant over the last two decades, the percentage of wives who reported having affairs rose almost 40 percent. Gary Spivak, founder of FidelityDating, a dating website designed to help users “find a loving non-cheater” — typically after being two-timed — says that last year membership on the site was largely female. Just one year later, it’s an even 50-50 split.

[LHutz Esq]

Ask any divorce attorney. The system favors women.

Actually - your wrong.

I've asked.

[oftpiste]

Actually - your wrong.

I've asked.

perhaps in canuckistan. not in these parts.

[Meadow Skipper]

Data point: Many years ago my divorce attorney advised me that the system favors the women and that it was important to understand that going forward. Also, that it did no good to resent it. She was correct on both counts.

[LHutz Esq]

perhaps in canuckistan. not in these parts.

I 100% agree that many, many men will feel that way.

I also know of lawyers that will espouse that point of view to any man that hires them (for obvious reasons such as: avoid accountability, lower expectations, encourage them to actually hire a lawyer - law unfortunately is a business after all). Just the data doesn't seem to back it up.

Even in 'Merca.

Here are some more reports:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3065227.stm
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...02550802222493

In ‘merca

https://www.popline.org/node/416851

http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPag...v=54&id=&page=

[mtngirl79]

Definitely. I hope she works it out for the next guy.

I hope she works it out for herself.

[oftpiste]

I 100% agree that many, many men will feel that way.

Have I mentioned, fuck you? Once again the inexperienced and unscathed want to tell the folks in the trenches how they should feel or what they should do, or why their experiences are wrong somehow.

Are you by any chance of the female persuasion?

Experience counts. Have you been through a divorce in Washington lately, as a man?

I'm sure it's everyone's "feelings" that are at fault. I'm sure there's no real reason to "feel" that way. Just sour grapes no doubt. All the men here saying they got screwed are just making it up and shouldn't "feel" that way. Fuck you. Experience and truth, as increasingly seems to be the case in the western world, have no bearing, right?

If you ain't been through it yourself I say, again, you don't know shit.

[XXX-er]

Buddy thinks he owns his house/ truck/ sled/ pension but really he only owns 1/2 of all the shit he thinks he owns

That fact only becomes apparent AND what a illogical business deal marriage is ... when the marriage is over

Then take the average family where they were paying for 1 of every thing suddenly add the cost involved to pay for 2 of everything from more or less the same family income and everybody in the family is gona suffer

It was 22 yars ago but I don't feel the deal I got according to BC law was unfair, so after reading this thread while I was just making a sammy I remembered to silently thank my ex-wife for kicking me out early enough to financially recover ... I have often have done that over the years


I seen the concept of a modern marriage standup in BC court back in the day (96ish) the idea that 2 professional people bringing assets to a relationship and who keep finances separate are entitled to each keep their shit unless they had children in which case it all cames under the family relationship act, but somehow I think it might have changed in 1997?

[XXX-er]

Have I mentioned, fuck you? Once again the inexperienced and unscathed want to tell the folks in the trenches how they should feel or what they should do, or why their experiences are wrong somehow.

Are you by any chance of the female persuasion?

Experience counts. Have you been through a divorce in Washington lately, as a man?

I'm sure it's everyone's "feelings" that are at fault. I'm sure there's no real reason to "feel" that way. Just sour grapes no doubt. All the men here saying they got screwed are just making it up and shouldn't "feel" that way. Fuck you. Experience and truth, as increasingly seems to be the case in the western world, have no bearing, right?

If you ain't been through it yourself I say, again, you don't know shit.

Not female but he has female lawyers working for him, buddy is probably triple billing someone right now eh?

[LHutz Esq]

Have I mentioned, fuck you? Once again the inexperienced and unscathed want to tell the folks in the trenches how they should feel or what they should do, or why their experiences are wrong somehow.

Are you by any chance of the female persuasion?

Experience counts. Have you been through a divorce in Washington lately, as a man?

I'm sure it's everyone's "feelings" that are at fault. I'm sure there's no real reason to "feel" that way. Just sour grapes no doubt. All the men here saying they got screwed are just making it up and shouldn't "feel" that way. Fuck you. Experience and truth, as increasingly seems to be the case in the western world, have no bearing, right?

If you ain't been through it yourself I say, again, you don't know shit.

So - like I said, anecdotally experiences will vary. The authorities cited show that women fair worse post-divorce than men. If divorce laws were universally drafted in such a way to favour the women - this would not be the case.

Sounds like you got screwed. That's too bad.

See in this job I get to see many, many divorces. Yep I have been in the "trenches" - on both sides of the line actually. I very rarely see both parties saying that they thought the process was pleasant, or that the result was entirely fair after it was over.

As for my gender - what does that got to do with the authorities I presented showing that you may be an outlier? You said ask "any attorney" As an "attorney" who also talks to other "attorneys" - I can say categorically that your statement is false. You lack the objectivity to make any rational statement on if the system favoured your spouse at all or if such favouritism was because of her situation or her because of her gender. For all we know you could be a completely irrational human that blames everything on others, thinks women can't have an opinion even if backed up by actual research and these things contributed to your either: a) actually being treated unfairly in court because the judge thought you were an misogynist asshole, or b) you thought you were treated unfairly because you had the expectations of a mysogynist asshole going in, or c) you were actually treated unfairly. So, I have nothing to go on but your irrational suggestion that I could only have the view I expressed because I was female rather than because of my experience and study - but I am leaning on (b) here. I very well could be wrong - I don't know you.

So until you have something better than "I got screwed so the system sucks"..

..Fuck you.

(And I mean that in the nicest most collegial and professional manner possible)

[LHutz Esq]

Not female but he has female lawyers working for him, buddy is probably triple billing someone right now eh?

Duuude - I am paying rapt attention to a CLE Webinar as we speak.

Rapt fucking attention.