Tammy Wynette cannot be reached for help-Divorce advice

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Love how many posters have been brainwashed with our societies puritanical norms. Kids suffer in a divorce because one or both parties can't overcome their ego and their desire to win or the feelings of failure, it's all vanity. Kids can do fine during a divorce if their parents aren't assholes and work to make sure the kids are getting looked after. The best advice I got from the attorney that I consulted for my divorce was "Take the high road and don't be an asshole".

I know that people can 'go off the rails' but most of the time that's a result of a problem that's been brewing far longer than most people realize.

[XXX-er]

"im still having a bit of a hard time imagining getting divorced and telling people your marriage is still a success
fault nonwitstanding "

you ever been divorced?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

im still having a bit of a hard time imagining getting divorced and telling people your marriage is still a success
fault nonwitstanding

Relationships end, that doesn't mean that the relationship was a failure. This applies to any relationship including marriage. The only reason people think that a divorce means failure is because of puritanical religious ideology whether they realize it or not.

[Flyoverland Captive]

Gotta agree. ^^^

A good friend beat the shit out of himself for the year his divorce took because he had somehow "failed". That is just so alien to my mindset.

[Mazderati]

Relationships end, that doesn't mean that the relationship was a failure. This applies to any relationship including marriage. The only reason people think that a divorce means failure is because of puritanical religious ideology whether they realize it or not.

Gotta agree. ^^^

A good friend beat the shit out of himself for the year his divorce took because he had somehow "failed". That is just so alien to my mindset.

Regardless of whether this is a good or bad view on relationships, how do you reconcile this view with marriage and what is generally understood to be a lifetime commitment. Define your own personal commitment? Until death do you part or whenever things get boring, whichever occurs first? Are new relationships built with the understanding and perhaps expectation they are temporary?

[XXX-er]

A lawyer bud claims that a sucessful relationship is when everybody gets out in possession of their own shit

I supose you could stay together for the children but they ain't stupid

unless of course they are stupid?

or you could try to be good parents in spite of the fact you are no longer married

cuz the kids will be alright as long as you are ok

or instead of moving on with life you could try to fuck each other over ?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Regardless of whether this is a good or bad view on relationships, how do you reconcile this view with marriage and what is generally understood to be a lifetime commitment. Define your own personal commitment? Until death do you part or whenever things get boring, whichever occurs first? Are new relationships built with the understanding and perhaps expectation they are temporary?

The vows you talk about come from western puritanical christian ideals. They aren't an inherent part of being human, they inhabit our conscience because we've been indoctrinated with them over generations.

If someone meets their 'soul mate' and lives happily ever after, good for them. That shouldn't necessarily be held up as the ideal. People do change over time and want different things and to take different paths, that's okay too.

I had almost two good decades with my ex wife and then we wanted to take different paths and we were able to keep it mostly amiable and took care of the kids. Everyone is happier now and the kids would tell you that us getting a divorce was a good thing.

Thinking that there is only one 'right' way is short sighted.

[skifishbum]

i had a lot of relationships
and on 20 years of a long term shooting for life long monogonous relationship working on a successful version of the legally or formally recognized union of two people as partners in a personal relationship we call marriage
now if that makes me brainwashed by sociological puritanical norms im good with that
i luv that chic
and youre free to not hold that bond in the same regard
or pretend a divorce is a successful marriage

[Cono Este]

Nothing ever goes as planned and people change. Despite my “failure”, I’ve got two great kids that I would not trade for that yacht I could be living on.


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[MagnificentUnicorn]

i had a lot of relationships
and on 20 years of a long term shooting for life long monogonous relationship working on a successful version of the legally or formally recognized union of two people as partners in a personal relationship we call marriage
now if that makes me brainwashed by sociological puritanical norms im good with that
i luv that chic
and youre free to not hold that bond in the same regard
or pretend a divorce is a successful marriage

Like I said, good for you. I'm not judging you, you shouldn't judge others. You're part of the problem, not because of your devotion to your wife but because you think other people are failures if they don't live up to your ideal. Life is messy, it's not as black and white as you seem to think.

You're last sentence is nonsensical, of course divorce isn't a successful marriage. It's the separation of a partnership, sometimes the divorce can be successful but often people fail miserably at divorce.

[Mazderati]

The vows you talk about come from western puritanical christian ideals. They aren't an inherent part of being human, they inhabit our conscience because we've been indoctrinated with them over generations.

If someone meets their 'soul mate' and lives happily ever after, good for them. That shouldn't necessarily be held up as the ideal. People do change over time and want different things and to take different paths, that's okay too.

I had almost two good decades with my ex wife and then we wanted to take different paths and we were able to keep it mostly amiable and took care of the kids. Everyone is happier now and the kids would tell you that us getting a divorce was a good thing.

Thinking that there is only one 'right' way is short sighted.

I'm suggesting marriage generally contains a time commitment regardless of where that commitment originates. You seem to be suggesting there is no time commitment; things change and people move on. That's why I'm asking if you're defining marriage to be some other personal commitment than the generally accepted commitment. If so, why get married at all?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I'm suggesting marriage generally contains a time commitment regardless of where that commitment originates. You seem to be suggesting there is no time commitment; things change and people move on. That's why I'm asking if you're defining marriage to be some other personal commitment than the generally accepted commitment. If so, why get married at all?

'Why get married at all?' is a great question. Why do people need to stand up in front of people and swear to their vows of lifelong commitment? Is it so that feelings of shame and failure will press them to continue a relationship that's run it's course? A lifelong monogamous relationship works for some people but why is that held up as the ideal?

[Mazderati]

'Why get married at all?' is a great question. Why do people need to stand up in front of people and swear to their vows of lifelong commitment? Is it so that feelings of shame and failure will press them to continue a relationship that's run it's course? A lifelong monogamous relationship works for some people but why is that held up as the ideal?

Are these the questions you asked as you were getting married? Is this the kind of discourse where we continually answer each other with questions?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Are these the questions you asked as you were getting married? Is this the kind of discourse where we continually answer each other with questions?

Are you following my lead? These are things I've ruminated on over the years while observing others and with my own experience as well. I don't think that relationships fit so neatly in a shoebox as people would like to believe.

[anonalias]

So.... interesting..... I recognized and called out the echo chamber many pages ago. It’s good to hear affirmation, though. I get more nuanced feedback from friends and family.... though that’s still fairly circular.

Divorce is shitty. Makes me less of a fan of the institution of marriage, for sure. I guess I don’t know what I’d replace it with. I hear a lot of “it’s not your fault” these days, but that’s bullshit. She was a shitty partner/mate for years and years, but neither of us have gone off the rails, yet. I could feel myself start to go off the rails, though, and after recognizing that my wife was and had been a persistently negative influence on me I decided to call it quits. Which isn’t to blame her for the divorce itself. That is me. A breaking of vows and promises. It makes me feel like a piece of shit, daily.

[DBdude]

it gets better and it is a process

just make good decisions and don't pursue a vendetta with your ex. no matter how bat shit crazy she is. hopefully she comes around.

I apologized to my wife and kids about the family breaking up. I didn't want the divorce. Five years later my kids are fine. The divorce fucks with you financially. I assume you make significantly more than your spouse.

I would have stuck it out if I were you... kinda said that many moons ago

[liv2ski]

I don't think people are adequately prepared for the most important jobs they will have in their life's, those being, getting an education that leads to fulfilling employment, managing finances, having a loving relationship with a spouse and raising your children to be normal and prepared for life.

That is way I always tell my girls that marriage number 1 should have a 5 year practice window before becoming "Official". In that time, don't get knocked up, just try and see if you can happily live with this person you thought you loved enough to marry.

If it doesn't work out, no shame. It was practice for the real relationship down the road.

[iceman]

When I was getting married my cousin asked me how long I had known my wife, I said 5 years. "5 years?!?" he said. "You barely know her, what's the rush?"

Silly me, I thought he was kidding.

[oftpiste]

Anon, yes, she has gone off the rails. Withholding your mail and fucking with the kids' heads is definitively off the rails behavior.

Aaron, you oversimplify, but I think you know you are doing that.

All this pontificating and oversimplification of the whys and wherefores of marriages ending don't do shit for those suffering through it. It's complicated, exhausting, heartbreaking, deeply life-altering, sanity-questioning, and no two are the same.

The fact that you or anyone else, or the world in general "grew apart" or aren't particularly suited to monogamy has no bearing on what others are experiencing and frankly, offers no comfort. So many here keep telling him that why he should be experiencing it the way they did. That's bullshit.

What people in his shoes need to hear is that they are NOT crazy, NOT going out of their minds, NOT acting like assholes, NOT doing the wrong thing and ARE worthy of hanging on to their self-worth which tends to get beaten out of you pretty hard.

They need to have their pain soothed and know that it will slowly but surely become less painful and some semblance of spiritual calm will creep back in to their lives.

Hang in there anon, and all you others who are suffering.

[Mazderati]

I don't think that relationships fit so neatly in a shoebox as people would like to believe.

No disagreement here. I'm just trying to understand why marriage if the expectation is anything but permanence. What value does marriage provide a long-term relationship without marriage does not? Tax implications? Alleviate social and cultural pressures in the short term? Those are probably both acceptable answers.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Anon, yes, she has gone off the rails. Withholding your mail and fucking with the kids' heads is definitively off the rails behavior.

Aaron, you oversimplify, but I think you know you are doing that.

All this pontificating and oversimplification of the whys and wherefores of marriages ending don't do shit for those suffering through it. It's complicated, exhausting, heartbreaking, deeply life-altering, sanity-questioning, and no two are the same.

The fact that you or anyone else, or the world in general "grew apart" or aren't particularly suited to monogamy has no bearing on what others are experiencing and frankly, offers no comfort. So many here keep telling him that why he should be experiencing it the way they did. That's bullshit.

What people in his shoes need to hear is that they are NOT crazy, NOT going out of their minds, NOT acting like assholes, NOT doing the wrong thing and ARE worthy of hanging on to their self-worth which tends to get beaten out of you pretty hard.

They need to have their pain soothed and know that it will slowly but surely become less painful and some semblance of spiritual calm will creep back in to their lives.

Hang in there anon, and all you others who are suffering.

I think you're missing my point. To put it simply, I'm saying don't beat yourself up because you're not a failure if this is happening to you, it will get better and it's not the end of the world. I'm also saying that no matter what's going on take the high road especially if there are kids involved.

The other part of what I'm saying is just that the reason people get all jammed up when it comes to divorce is the ideal that is pushed on us.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

No disagreement here. I'm just trying to understand why marriage if the expectation is anything but permanence. What value does marriage provide a long-term relationship without marriage does not? Tax implications? Alleviate social and cultural pressures in the short term? Those are probably both acceptable answers.

Marriage is and was historically more of a business contract that an eternal romantic commitment.

[TWINS]

Yes, you are not a piece of shit.
My first marriage was a disaster.
Lasted long enough to have a kid.
When we split up she used our daughter to torture me.
Dragged me through the mud with false accusations in court.The "I heard something " bullshit.
I was really close to ending my life back then but luckily
made it through to the other end.
Now I look back and realize that I would be dead now if I stayed with her.

25 years later my ex still throws knives my way when she has a chance.
Bible Thumping Christian Hypocrite too.
Take care of yourself...
#1 priority right now.


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[::: :::]

When I was getting married my cousin asked me how long I had known my wife, I said 5 years. "5 years?!?" he said. "You barely know her, what's the rush?"

Silly me, I thought he was kidding.

Everyone we knew said, “5yrs?!? What were you waiting for?”

[iceman]

Ha.

The way I look at it, of course there all sorts of socio-cultural causes for and ramifications of marriage. And maybe the whole institution's not a good idea at all, in fact I could make a pretty good case for that argument, as Aaron seems to be attempting to do.

But be that as it may, I swore an oath with my eyes wide open and nobody forcing me to do it, and I am going to do everything in my power to live up to what I swore. It's a tough road but I chose it myself. For better or worse and shit. But we all make our own decisions and I'm not gonna think any worse of anyone else for theirs, and especially when circumstances drastically change. Do what you gotta do. And so will I.

I often think of Henny Youngman's one-liner (slightly paraphrased I'm sure): "30 years I'm married and never once have I thought of divorce! Murder..."