First confirmed Measles death since 2003

[frorider]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/

[iceman]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/

That's interesting but as we all know correlation does not imply causation. I don't see them claiming that there is a linear reltionship between the number of vaccines and the IMR, rather they say that the US has a relatively high IMR and also requires the highest number of vaccines. Perhaps specific vaccines that the US requires and other countries don't require are the culprits? We don't know because the authors don't attempt to answer that question.

Perhaps obesity is the culprit? Diet? Access to medical care? These and any number of things could be possible causes for this correlation but the authors go only for the simplest answer and do not support their case other than through broad statistics. The statistics are obvious in one way, as clearly there is some relationship there. But what that relationship is, what's driving it, is not a question that is even partially answered by that piece.

[mtngirl79]

I see you're still a fucking idiot.

Do you have any information that can back up your repeated assertion that lack of childhood vaccinations had anything to do with that person contracting measles?

She was in the medical center right after someone with measles, idiot.

[hutash]

{qualifications: Masters of Public Health from tier 1 university and coursework in tropical medicine with field experience in vaccination campaigns for polio. Contracted and dealing with Polio myelitis A because strain information was presumed B before entering the country}.

Yeah, but what do you know? DBS read something on the internet...

[doughboyshredder]

She was in the medical center right after someone with measles, idiot.

Was this a child that hadn't been vaccinated?

Or was it someone that had been vaccinated yet still caught measles.

Or was it an immigrant that hadn't been vaccinated?

You don't know yet you make your assumptions because you're a dumbass.

[Adolf Allerbush]

http://www.antivaccinebodycount.com/...ount/Home.html

[doughboyshredder]

Yeah, but what do you know? DBS read something on the internet...

He pretty much said what I've been arguing. You don't need all the vaccines in all environments, but here's 5 or 6 everyone should get.

Think what you want asshut, but I am not anti-vaxx.

[bodywhomper]

personally, i wonder why we are not recommended/required to get yellow fever vaccine, at least in areas where the skeeters are now showing up, like CA. or maybe what the threshold is set at where this vaccine will become a recommendation/requirement.

have peeps seen this?

According to investigative work by the state department, the woman had been vaccinated, though spokesperson Donn Moyer told me her mother was not able to locate a vaccination record. (Update: According to further state info, the woman learned she might have been exposed to measles; had her degree of immune protection checked, and discovered she would have had enough immunity to protect against measles if she had not been taking the immune-suppressing drugs.) Nevertheless, because of the immune suppression, she became infected. And, also because of the immune suppression—this is important—once the disease developed, she did not experience the characteristic rash. Instead, she developed pneumonia. That was one of the chief causes of death from measles in the pre-vaccine era. But measles pneumonia is now so rare—because measles itself is rare, though not as rare as it was—that it is not the first explanation that leaps to mind when a case of pneumonia occurs.

The actual cause of the woman’s illness was only revealed after she had been hospitalized at a second medical facility, and died, and underwent an autopsy. According to the state health department: “The cause of death was pneumonia due to measles.”

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic....sles-death-us/

[mtngirl79]

personally, i wonder why we are not recommended/required to get yellow fever vaccine, at least in areas where the skeeters are now showing up, like CA. or maybe what the threshold is set at where this vaccine will become a recommendation/requirement.

have peeps seen this?

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic....sles-death-us/

Yeah. Doucheboyshredder is arguing that anti vaxxers didn't contribute to that death.

[frorider]

That's interesting but as we all know correlation does not imply causation. I don't see them claiming that there is a linear reltionship between the number of vaccines and the IMR, rather they say that the US has a relatively high IMR and also requires the highest number of vaccines. Perhaps specific vaccines that the US requires and other countries don't require are the culprits? We don't know because the authors don't attempt to answer that question.

Perhaps obesity is the culprit? Diet? Access to medical care? These and any number of things could be possible causes for this correlation but the authors go only for the simplest answer and do not support their case other than through broad statistics. The statistics are obvious in one way, as clearly there is some relationship there. But what that relationship is, what's driving it, is not a question that is even partially answered by that piece.

Agree. But it was the most recent reference I found on that aspect.

After all these pages it does seem like DBS isn't one of those who is using 'alternative schedule ' as a smokescreen for pretty much no vaccination.

[doughboyshredder]

Yeah. Doucheboyshredder is arguing that anti vaxxers didn't contribute to that death.

You're just not smart.

What I said is do you know anything about the person that originally had measles that gave it to the woman that died? do you have any knowledge of how they contracted the virus or are you making an assumption that they had not been vaccinated? it's pretty clear that you're making an assumption and that doesn't surprise me because you're an ass.

Again ftr, I agree that the measles vaccine is one that everyone should get.

[Adolf Allerbush]

He pretty much said what I've been arguing. You don't need all the vaccines in all environments, but here's 5 or 6 everyone should get.

Think what you want asshut, but I am not anti-vaxx.

You're not antivax but you're not getting your kid(s) vaccinated according to the best scientific information we have either? Something does not add up there...do you see it?

[doughboyshredder]

You're not antivax but you're not getting your kid(s) vaccinated according to the best scientific information we have either? Something does not add up there...do you see it?

You're making the assumption that the us vax schedule as recommended by the cdc is the best. I disagree.

[Jesse]

For what it's worth, I had hippie parents = no vaccines because my immunity would be stronger. ..
While I do have a great healthy life and rarely get sick, I have caught a couple things that most people are vaccinated for. Both sucked, especially measles which I got as a teenager. It was really not fun....

I'm also sick right now with another unnecessary sickness.

In fact coincidentally my mother today was just apologizing for not vaccinating me.

I'd say skipping the vaccines isn't worth the very small risk of complications. Actually getting u necessarily sick is worse.

Just my 2 cents.

[iceman]

Honestly I am all in for vaccination and would not object to coercion from the government to insure that some people don't take advantage of herd immunity to the detriment of those who need that herd immunity to survive/thrive.

With that said, I don't see DBS' position as particularly radical or ill-founded. Spreading out the vaxes a little to make sure you can understand what is going on with your kid and see what reactions they may (but probably will not) have, questioning the utility of some particular vaxes, trying to make sure that his kids aren't damaged while at the same time acknowledging the utility -the absolute necessity- of vaxes in general seems to me to be prudent and not stupid or somehow dishonorable.

At the same time, DBS, get on with it. Don't dally simply because all the evidence isn't in, because it never will be. Move "With all deliberate speed" as they used to say back in the day.

[iceman]

You're making the assumption that the us vax schedule as recommended by the cdc is the best. I disagree.

You don't have the evidence to disagree. What you have is doubts. They are understandable but they are only doubts.

[doughboyshredder]

Honestly I am all in for vaccination and would not object to coercion from the government to insure that some people don't take advantage of herd immunity to the detriment of those who need that herd immunity to survive/thrive.

With that said, I don't see DBS' position as particularly radical or ill-founded. Spreading out the vaxes a little to make sure you can understand what is going on with your kid and see what reactions they may (but probably will not) have, questioning the utility of some particular vaxes, trying to make sure that his kids aren't damaged while at the same time acknowledging the utility -the absolute necessity- of vaxes in general seems to me to be prudent and not stupid or somehow dishonorable.

At the same time, DBS, get on with it. Don't dally simply because all the evidence isn't in, because it never will be. Move "With all deliberate speed" as they used to say back in the day.

Thank you.

[Mofro261]

Well that was an interesting read through after a long weekend.

While it's nice to think the issue with diseases like measles are due to immigrants either legal or not bringing it in to the US, the overwhelming majority (>90%) of measles outbreaks are caused by unvaccinated US citizens who travel abroad, bring it back and spread it around to other unvaccinated individuals. Among the 7% of vaccinated individuals who contracted measles last year in the US nearly all were adults with compromised immune systems. Since they are not releasing the name of the individual who was being treated at the hospital and responsible for transmission to the immuno-compromised patient, there's only a 90+% chance they were unvaccinated. We do know that the outbreak in the Port Townsend area initiated with unvaccinated individuals and was traced back to the outbreak at Disneyland a few months prior.

DBS, jcollingham was in no way suggesting that people should pick and choose which vaccines you should give your kids among those suggested by the CDC guidelines, but that when taking in to account ALL vaccines that are available some are not necessary outside the context of travel to regions where a particular disease is prevalent. Yellow fever, typhoid, etc. Climate changes that affect the spread of vector borne (insect) diseases may alter the composition in the future, with Dengue and Chikungunya viruses now showing up in the Southern US.

The HepB vaccine in itself is probably one of the safest and offers lifetime immunity, I can try and link it up later but in a large cohort study in China the vaccine decreased the long term incidence of liver cancer (30 year follow up) by up to 85%. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4280122/
It may prove even more beneficial as this cohort reaches the prime age for liver cancer in another 15 years. It used to be optional and recommended just for high risks groups but that was changed since 1/3 of infections occur outside of this classification.

This site provides a good synopsis of how the CDC guidelines have evolved over time as new vaccines have been brought online. http://vec.chop.edu/service/vaccine-...-schedule.html

I'm a PHD scientist/skibum working in the vaccine and diagnostics field and have for ~15 yrs. No, vaccines are not 100% safe for all people because all people do not have the same immune system, and will respond with varying degrees to the presence of antigen (from the bug) and adjuvant (immuno-stimulating compounds either added back in or present within the bug) but dosing adheres to a one-size-fits all model in which the highest effective dose resulting in a low amount of AE's is chosen. Most often these levels of AE's correlate to a mock injection control with isotonic saline; the mere act of injection is responsible and not the vaccine components themselves. Typically adverse events are mild and include redness and swelling at the injection site, aches, pains, and fever. But if you exposed yourself to the organism it's highly likely these symptoms and the duration would be much worse- ie priming the immune system involves a degree of discomfort. Case in point would be the pertussis vaccine, which used to be heat killed pertussis bacteria but is now an acellular (protein extract) form. By decreasing the gimmish that was injected to remove cellular components that caused reactogenicity and make it more safe, the efficacy was also decreased, and combined with an uptick of people opting out of vaccination, there has been a resurgence of whooping cough.

[old goat]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/

Look at the corrections to the article.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3463891/
apparently the authors forgot to mention that they were associated with anti vax groups and the study was funded by anti-vaxers.
Plus--the authors used statistical methods that would only be valid if all other variables--things like poverty, undocumented immigrant population, access to health care, a living wage, access to healthy food, maternal health, etc, etc--were identical, which of course they were not. Or they could have analyzed all the variables between the US and the other countries and done a multivariate analysis, which they did not do. Frankly, I'm shocked that this article was accepted by a peer-reviewed journal, and that it wasn't retracted when the conflict of interest was discovered. This article is almost as an egregious example of junk science as the autism/vaccine article that has been debunked and withdrawn. ( Of course, this would not be the first biased article in a "reputable journal", except that most junk articles are by doctors and scientists on the payroll of or funded by drug companies and medical device manufacturers. So I guess by the prevailing very low ethical standard the article is no worse than average.)

Re: vaccine schedules--they are not established based entirely on medical grounds but on logistical and socio-economic grounds. Childhood is when people have the best medical care access for the most part and also when there are predictable milestones, like entering school, when vaccine status can be determined. It is hard to vaccinate adults--especially young adults who rarely see a doctor and who often don't have access to vaccination records. Giving a lot of vaccinations at once is a matter of convenience and cost--for every parent complaining about their kid having to get so many vaccinations at once, if we were to spread out the schedule there would be 10 times as many parents complaining about having to take off work and pay additional copays for the additional visits. People would complain that it's a plot by the doctors to make more money.

The dramatic increases in life expectancy and decreases in infant and child mortalityin the twentieth century were due to vaccination, sanitation (primarily sewage systems and clean water, and adequate nutrition (we may have overshot the mark on that one). We are in danger if we take these things for granted. The technological successes of modern medicine are of very minor importance.

[hutash]

Well that was an interesting read through after a long weekend.

While it's nice to think the issue with diseases like measles are due to immigrants either legal or not bringing it in to the US, the overwhelming majority (>90%) of measles outbreaks are caused by unvaccinated US citizens who travel abroad, bring it back and spread it around to other unvaccinated individuals. Among the 7% of vaccinated individuals who contracted measles last year in the US nearly all were adults with compromised immune systems. Since they are not releasing the name of the individual who was being treated at the hospital and responsible for transmission to the immuno-compromised patient, there's only a 90+% chance they were unvaccinated. We do know that the outbreak in the Port Townsend area initiated with unvaccinated individuals and was traced back to the outbreak at Disneyland a few months prior.

DBS, jcollingham was in no way suggesting that people should pick and choose which vaccines you should give your kids among those suggested by the CDC guidelines, but that when taking in to account ALL vaccines that are available some are not necessary outside the context of travel to regions where a particular disease is prevalent. Yellow fever, typhoid, etc. Climate changes that affect the spread of vector borne (insect) diseases may alter the composition in the future, with Dengue and Chikungunya viruses now showing up in the Southern US.

The HepB vaccine in itself is probably one of the safest and offers lifetime immunity, I can try and link it up later but in a large cohort study in China the vaccine decreased the long term incidence of liver cancer (30 year follow up) by up to 85%. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4280122/
It may prove even more beneficial as this cohort reaches the prime age for liver cancer in another 15 years. It used to be optional and recommended just for high risks groups but that was changed since 1/3 of infections occur outside of this classification.

This site provides a good synopsis of how the CDC guidelines have evolved over time as new vaccines have been brought online. http://vec.chop.edu/service/vaccine-...-schedule.html

I'm a PHD scientist/skibum working in the vaccine and diagnostics field and have for ~15 yrs. No, vaccines are not 100% safe for all people because all people do not have the same immune system, and will respond with varying degrees to the presence of antigen (from the bug) and adjuvant (immuno-stimulating compounds either added back in or present within the bug) but dosing adheres to a one-size-fits all model in which the highest effective dose resulting in a low amount of AE's is chosen. Most often these levels of AE's correlate to a mock injection control with isotonic saline; the mere act of injection is responsible and not the vaccine components themselves. Typically adverse events are mild and include redness and swelling at the injection site, aches, pains, and fever. But if you exposed yourself to the organism it's highly likely these symptoms and the duration would be much worse- ie priming the immune system involves a degree of discomfort. Case in point would be the pertussis vaccine, which used to be heat killed pertussis bacteria but is now an acellular (protein extract) form. By decreasing the gimmish that was injected to remove cellular components that caused reactogenicity and make it more safe, the efficacy was also decreased, and combined with an uptick of people opting out of vaccination, there has been a resurgence of whooping cough.

Again with the facts and reason. This is the internet were it is best to expound on shit you know little to nothing about and have a gut feeling big pharma and the government are out to get your kids. It is best to ignore best medical practice and do what you think is best based on little to no information, or better yet, wrong information. DBS constantly blathers on about big pharma and the government, gets called on his stupidity they tries to weasel out of it because he got some vaccines for his kid on his own or some quack MD/internet recommendation.

Of course the bigger issue here that nobody has yet addressed is that there is some woman is this world wiling to fuck DBS often enough to have a kid and that there is now another being on this earth with half of DBS's genes crawling around. Let's just all hope it's mother's genes are dominate.

[mtngirl79]

I just can't believe DBS thinks Mofro wants to fuck up his kid...

[stuckathuntermtn]

Wow, dude, this is not the fight to be fighting. You read that book by that Kennedy. Great. Now go get your kid vaccinated.

[stuckathuntermtn]

...
Of course the bigger issue here that nobody has yet addressed is that there is some woman is this world wiling to fuck DBS often enough to have a kid and that there is now another being on this earth with half of DBS's genes crawling around. Let's just all hope it's mother's genes are dominate.

This is a serious issue.

[Harry]

with Dengue and Chikungunya viruses now in the Southeast U.S.

My brother got Dengue Fever in Atlanta last summer.

[Tippster]

Am I high or did I read somewhere that kids have a stronger healing capacity/immune response than adults, so giving them a barrage of vaccines is easier for them to cope with than a 30yo?

All I know is that my kids would scratch themselves when they were little and in 2 days that shit was gone. With me the equivalent would take a week.