First confirmed Measles death since 2003

[DBdude]

This thread just took a turn for the truly scary. DasBlunt is a Dad???

my thoughts exactly - lol

congrats Das!

[Adolf Allerbush]

I think it's time to give DBS a break--he's explained his position and his plans clearly, his reasoning is sound as far as spacing out the vaccines, as long as they are given in a timely manner, and most of the people criticizing him don't seem to be reading what he writes, although it is fun criticizing him I must admit.

Maybe I missed it but where did he explain specifically how delayed the vax schedule he came up with is?

[Tippster]

We chose an alternative vaccine schedule for my daughter, who is fully vaccinated btw. Would you call us child abusers?
Just curious, because my wife was basically accused of such at a girls dinner party at our own home.

So your child IS fully vaccinated. How does Old Goat's statement apply to you in any way? His point was that parents WHO DO NOT VACCINATE THEIR KIDS should be accused of abuse/neglect.

[old goat]

Many pages ago I retracted my hyperbole. I do not believe that people who don't vaccinate their children should be in jail. I believe their children should be compelled to have vaccination, in the same way the children of Jehovah's Witnesses are transfused and the children of Christian Scientists are treated for serious illnesses.

As far as schedules, I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on any particular schedule. Any schedule that adequately protects the child, whether it's the US sanctioned schedule or an alternative is fine by me.

[bodywhomper]

As far as schedules, I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on any particular schedule. Any schedule that adequately protects the child, whether it's the US sanctioned schedule or an alternative is fine by me.

i'm not knowledgeable enough either, but in CA, starting Jan 1, if you have your kid in day care, you need to be on the current CDC schedule unless you have a med exemption. regardless of any alternative plan/schedule to completely vaccinate. several years back, our ped for the first kid suggested a more spaced out schedule with more wellness visits that included vaccinations. that would not fly starting jan 2016 if we needed infant day care.

peeps comparing WHO and CDC and schedules for various countries should note that WHO and CDC have different schedules for the USA, at least for HepB (the first vax that i looked up). Here's the CDC schedule and here's the WHO schedule for USA, UK, and switzerland . the WHO schedules does not include the doseage at birth that the CDC recommends. Is this a typo?

something that i learned in this "new" vax discussion is that ipv does not provide herd immunity. i had no idea.

i live in the western part of the same county as old goat; a place with a very strong anti-vax "movement". it's going to be very interesting to see what occurs with the new CA vax law. in the short term, i see an overall decrease in the economy of the area as parents start to work less and pull their kids from the 5-day a week schools and enroll in hybrid homeschool programs that meet the independent study loophole of the new law. i also see a possible closure of the waldorf schools in the area, one of which is a charter school with a fairly high enrollment. this could also be a place for a doctor to set-up shop and exclusively live off writing medical exemptions.

[old goat]

this could also be a place for a doctor to set-up shop and exclusively live off writing medical exemptions.

Same doctors that write cannabis recommendations?

Yep--Nevada County is an interesting place.

[Adolf Allerbush]

i'm not knowledgeable enough either, but in CA, starting Jan 1, if you have your kid in day care, you need to be on the current CDC schedule unless you have a med exemption. regardless of any alternative plan/schedule to completely vaccinate.

In the context of this thread, where the alternative schedule = DBS's schedule, the question has been posed...what is your alternative schedule? Because there are a lot of research papers that have dispelled the usefulness of the alternative schedules proposed by Dr. Bob Sears, for example. That's why I asked DBS what his plan is, to see how it compares to other alternative schedules.

[bodywhomper]

i can't remember our ped's alternative schedule exactly; the kid's almost 10, but generally, it involved coming in for several exrta wellness visits during year 1 and 2 and getting some shots during those additional visits. e.g., 2 mo getting half the injections per cdc schedule and visiting again as 3 mo and getting the rest of the 2mo batch. by age 2, all cdc-recommended vax had occurred. i agree with others, based on my skimming through some of the lit, vax schedules are based on culture, socio economics, potential of exposure, and effectiveness of the vax.

[Adolf Allerbush]

i can't remember our ped's alternative schedule exactly; the kid's almost 10, but generally, it involved coming in for several exrta wellness visits during year 1 and 2 and getting some shots during those additional visits. e.g., 2 mo getting half the injections per cdc schedule and visiting again as 3 mo and getting the rest of the 2mo batch. by age 2, all cdc-recommended vax had occurred. i agree with others, based on my skimming through some of the lit, vax schedules are based on culture, socio economics, potential of exposure, and effectiveness of the vax.

Cool. Just trying to wrap my head around DBS's logic on this one. If there is no health risk with the CDC's schedule, for example, then why delay it? If there is, what is the risk, how well is it understood, and what does spacing out the vaccinations do to mitigate those risks?

[hutash]

[QUOTE ] based on my skimming through some of the lit, vax schedules are based on culture, socio economics, potential of exposure, and effectiveness of the vax.[/QUOTE]

In others words, good medicine and good social policy, but of course some people just "know" better:rolleyes;

(not a shot at you whomper)

Generally speaking, multivalent vaccines are safer then giving each vax separately, so by separating them out you increase the risk of adverse reactions. You can also over burden the immune system, and one vax response can block the response to another vax if given too soon. (Just to name a few)

There many good reasons to change schedules, and a good pedantic (or vet) is going to take these into consideration and advise accordingly. That said, schedules are thought out and have many good reasons to be designed as they are, you one should have a better reason to deviate from it. Reading on the innertubes that some countries do it different does not qualify.

[bodywhomper]

It is interesting, at least to me, how different countries schedule their vaxes. I know it's not very relevant to the main subject of this thread. ... There's is some misinformation about polio vax where an journal article reporting an experiment in Cuba is misused to support the misinformation - typical and totally lame. The actual article is pretty interesting and gets into detail about modifying the Cuban vax schedule as the country prepares to shift from opv to ipv.

[Mofro261]

If you are interested in seeing how European countries compare, the European CDC site is the best: http://vaccine-schedule.ecdc.europa....Scheduler.aspx

Hutash, in most cases the individual vaccines in multivalent vaccines are not available as single vaccines. Usually the blow back is getting multiple shots at once, esp the 2/4/6 month ones where 4 shots and up to ~7 vaccines are given.

Again not directed at anyone, but overloading the immune system isn't really an issue at all. At any given time you are using at best 0.1% of your immune capacity. Old vaccines were loaded with all sorts of junk and had a lot more antigens in them than nearly all of the modern vaccines. The BCG vaccine given everywhere in the world outside of western countries contains 4000 genes... and despite being given to people since the 1920's we really still don't know how it works- no way that or the small pox vaccine would be able to get FDA approval today.

People also freak out when they read Aluminum (an adjuvant that enhances antibody production) may be in their vaccines, but don't realize the highest vaccine dose (0.5mg) is still ~15-20x less than a baby takes in daily from breast milk (~7-9mgs/day) or formula (17-20mgs/day).

[doughboyshredder]

[QUOTE ] based on my skimming through some of the lit, vax schedules are based on culture, socio economics, potential of exposure, and effectiveness of the vax.

In others words, good medicine and good social policy, but of course some people just "know" better:rolleyes;

(not a shot at you whomper)

Generally speaking, multivalent vaccines are safer then giving each vax separately, so by separating them out you increase the risk of adverse reactions. You can also over burden the immune system, and one vax response can block the response to another vax if given too soon. (Just to name a few)

There many good reasons to change schedules, and a good pedantic (or vet) is going to take these into consideration and advise accordingly. That said, schedules are thought out and have many good reasons to be designed as they are, you one should have a better reason to deviate from it. Reading on the innertubes that some countries do it different does not qualify.[/QUOTE]

The fact that you keep talking about multivalents tells me you don't really get it.

[doughboyshredder]

Cool. Just trying to wrap my head around DBS's logic on this one. If there is no health risk with the CDC's schedule, for example, then why delay it? If there is, what is the risk, how well is it understood, and what does spacing out the vaccinations do to mitigate those risks?

I have told you multiple times, but I will try again.

If you have multiple injections at a visit and there is a reaction, there is no way to know which injection caused the reaction. This is why many parents with the time and financial resources will space out all vaccinations. Call it paranoia if you want. I call it good parenting.

[hutash]

Okay, you are paranoid.

[hutash]

Hutash, in most cases the individual vaccines in multivalent vaccines are not available as single vaccines. Usually the blow back is getting multiple shots at once, esp the 2/4/6 month ones where 4 shots and up to ~7 vaccines ).

My bad, I thought human medicine had caught up with veterinary medicine, I guess not. I can get just about any combination I want.

Still, it is not the number of vaccines, or number of shots given at one time, but the number of times an antigen is introduced that matters. I typically give a six valent shot and a rabies shot at one appointment. That is far better, and far less reactive then giving seven different shots at seven different appointments, and that is not taking into account boosters. The disadvantage of multiple shots at one visit is really about the trauma of mutiple injections, not the vaccine reaction.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Call it paranoia if you want. I call it good parenting.

Clearly it's paranoia since you presumably put your kids in cars, allow them to cross the street, and send them to school when all these activities are a greater threat to their lives than any vaccine schedule is. Hell, they probably have a better chance of being struck by lightning than having a serious adverse reaction to a vaccine, but this is what you're concerned with since you've read some crap about the dangers of vaccinations. If someone didn't allow their kids to be schooled or cross the street because they thought they were engaged in 'good parenting' you'd rightfully call them out on it, but you have this weird thing about vaccines. Which can't be separated from your fear of government. All of which comes back to the well established fact that you're just generally kind of an idiot, so it all makes sense from that perspective. But your irrational fear of this very slight danger (and unwitting acceptance of much greater dangers) doesn't make you a good parent.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Didn't we deal with this article pages ago. If not, let me explain. Infant mortality has everything to do with nutrition, availability of health care, poverty, and public sanitation, among other things. The US does poorly in the first 3 areas compared to other industrialized countries. Our plumbing is pretty good, at least compared to France, although we don't do so well as far as preventing food-borne infections. The article does not consider any of these factors. It happens that the country with the worst nutrition, health care system, and poverty also gives the most vaccines. Since these other factors were not considered or controlled for and since no multivariate analysis was done, the article is meaningless. All it shows is that vaccines don't prevent the causes of child mortality, the top 3 of which in the <1 year old group are congenital abnormalities, prematurity, and complications of pregnancy; and in the 1-4 group are accidental injury, congenital abnormalities, and homicide. I wish we did have a vaccine to prevent murder.

Good to hear about the above--either haven't read the whole thread or have read piecemeal. So without that article I wasn't able to find anything at all that would support anything close to the other side of this thing. Which is what I basically had expected.

[doughboyshredder]

Clearly it's paranoia since you presumably put your kids in cars, allow them to cross the street, and send them to school when all these activities are a greater threat to their lives than any vaccine schedule is. Hell, they probably have a better chance of being struck by lightning than having a serious adverse reaction to a vaccine, but this is what you're concerned with since you've read some crap about the dangers of vaccinations. If someone didn't allow their kids to be schooled or cross the street because they thought they were engaged in 'good parenting' you'd rightfully call them out on it, but you have this weird thing about vaccines. Which can't be separated from your fear of government. All of which comes back to the well established fact that you're just generally kind of an idiot, so it all makes sense from that perspective. But your irrational fear of this very slight danger (and unwitting acceptance of much greater dangers) doesn't make you a good parent.

I put him in the safest car that we could purchase while strapped in to the safest car seat. He won't be old enough to cross the street on his own for quite a while and (cue the freakouts and personal attacks) he will be home-schooled by his momma who has a masters in education. As for lightning, we won't ever leave him outside in a lightning storm.

It is idiotic to not try and reduce the chance of harm coming to your child. As I've stated there is a family history of allergies to some medications and therefore it's important to us that we monitor the effects of each vaccine.

It's not that I fear my government. I don't trust the government. We have thousands of years of history across the planet that show us trusting the government is really not smart. That's any government. The U.S. government is no different. There is nothing special about this country.

[mtngirl79]

Allergies to medications... that's pretty vague.

But hey.

Home school away. I never took you for that much of a nutcase.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Actually, as I wrote the thing about school, I was 50/50 that DBS would respond with something about homeschooling. Fits the profile: paranoid about the government, suspicious of vaccines, lives in the west, gun nut (I think)...

Aside from that DBS of course missed the point that he's protecting his kid against a danger that doesn't really exist (based on internet hearsay and no evidence) while unknowingly subjecting him to all sorts of other dangers that are real but which, because Jenny Mccarthy has never blogged about them, he never thinks about (jesus, even for DBS that was dense--I assume the kid crosses the street when you take him somewhere, didn't mean he has to be walking on his own to be subject to that danger; it's not like adults have some force field around them that keeps cars away).

[doughboyshredder]

Actually, as I wrote the thing about school, I was 50/50 that DBS would respond with something about homeschooling. Fits the profile: paranoid about the government, suspicious of vaccines, lives in the west, gun nut (I think)...

Aside from that DBS of course missed the point that he's protecting his kid against a danger that doesn't really exist (based on internet hearsay and no evidence) while unknowingly subjecting him to all sorts of other dangers that are real but which, because Jenny Mccarthy has never blogged about them, he never thinks about (jesus, even for DBS that was dense--I assume the kid crosses the street when you take him somewhere, didn't mean he has to be walking on his own to be subject to that danger; it's not like adults have some force field around them that keeps cars away).

When I walk across the street I look both ways to reduce the danger. Even if I have a walk signal in there's no traffic anywhere. Not much different than my view on vaccinations.

[PNWbrit]

and (cue the freakouts and personal attacks) he will be home-schooled

I don't understand how this is legal.

[Dexter Rutecki]

When I walk across the street I look both ways to reduce the danger. Even if I have a walk signal in there's no traffic anywhere. Not much different than my view on vaccinations.

Except that as has been explained numerous times, by people who actually personally understand this far better than I ever will (and I defer to their understanding, as you would if you were smart), you are still subjecting yourself and your kid to a real danger while you worry about a mostly imaginary one. I get it--you're so careful nothing could ever happen to you (crossing the street, guns, driving, whatever). It's like all the people who have guns in the house whose kids somehow end up shooting themselves or their friends. You believe in this sense of control you have, and it scares you (especially where the government is concerned) that you might not have control, regardless of what the real danger is. You're being irrational but you can't see it.

Whatever. This is obviously pointless as there is always a hard core group with blinders on, regardless of the issue/evidence.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I put him in the safest car that we could purchase while strapped in to the safest car seat. He won't be old enough to cross the street on his own for quite a while and (cue the freakouts and personal attacks) he will be home-schooled by his momma who has a masters in education. As for lightning, we won't ever leave him outside in a lightning storm.

It is idiotic to not try and reduce the chance of harm coming to your child. As I've stated there is a family history of allergies to some medications and therefore it's important to us that we monitor the effects of each vaccine.

It's not that I fear my government. I don't trust the government. We have thousands of years of history across the planet that show us trusting the government is really not smart. That's any government. The U.S. government is no different. There is nothing special about this country.

Did you ever tell us which medications your family is allergic to?