ProtoPolyAss: What About Building Water Pipelines To CA and the SW?

[PB]

While I agree that water is or most valuable natural resource, significant wars have not been for over it ….. yet. Water disputes tend to be smaller, and more short lived, in part because while acute they can be dealt with quickly (and violently). Also, for some strange reason, politicians don't seem to like to go to war over water - not sexy/nationalistic enough, perhaps. For example, Pakistan and India already have all the excuse they need - religion/culture - to go to war; water's not required. On a broader scale, however, there are numerous historical examples of civilizations failing due to loss of water resources.

[Tippster]

I just had some genius on another forum lecture me about how Cali's water crisis is due to lack of dams, despite the fact that there is only ONE undammed river in all of CA. I asked how he'd fill those new reservoirs. He said with rain and snow runoff, of course.

[/facepalm]

[neckdeep]

Sure , you could go to the expense of desal or dams for more water storage. Or CA could just use its existing Ag water more efficiently and send some of what's wasted in evaporation to residential usage. Compare CA farmers' irrigation methods to those of farmers in a perpetual desert clime like Israel and you'll see how CA badly wastes its relative wealth of waters. Good luck, tho, most farmers just plain hostile to water conservation because they see it as the thin end of a wedge. Conservation implicitly means a farmer could get by with less than they currently use and no one wants to fingered for a future reduction of their allocation. A devil in the details is how some jurisdictions actually encourage Ag water waste with "use it or lose it" rules. And then there's the 900 golf courses...as long as playgrounds for golfers are a priority, how bad can the "crisis" really be? Bad enough to be talking desal plants or drinking poop water? Governor Brown wants you to think there's just not enough water to go around but it sure seems like big Ag and the 1%ers still have plenty to waste.

[bodywhomper]

Here's a news article from yesterday that describes ca surface water rights and gets into the"why" and "how" some folks can flood irrigate and some 500000 acres have been fallow for the past two years. Also, apparently there were some large errors in the ucd study, mostly due to poor quality background data from the state.

http://m.utsandiego.com/news/2015/ap...-right-system/

[406]

Some good news, but seems like it should have been done years ago.

Rancho Santa Fe Golf Course Switches To Recycled Water System
With drastic state-mandated water use cutbacks looming, The Farms Golf Club Thursday switched over to a recycled water system to irrigate its greens and fairways, which is expected to save millions of gallons of drinking water.

Until the switch, 96 percent of the 83-acre course was irrigated with potable water, according to the Olivenhein Municipal Water District.

"As California regulators consider mandating specific reductions in potable water use, the timing for this conversion could not have been better," said Kimberly Thorner, district general manager. "OMWD has been committed to reducing our reliance on imported water, and this is yet another step toward fulfilling that goal."

While the club spent about $200,000 on the conversion, it will eventually pay for itself because recycled water is less expensive than drinking water, according to the district .

The State Water Resources Control Board is determining specific cutback levels for water agencies across California because of the continuing drought, in order to meet Gov. Jerry Brown's demand for an overall 25 percent reduction.

The restrictions could be finalized at meetings next Tuesday and Wednesday.

About 12 percent of golf courses nationwide are irrigated with reclaimed water, including some in San Diego County, according to the Golf Course Superintendents Association of America.

The district delivers water to seven golf courses, and five get recycled water. A sixth course is close to converting, according to the district.

And some bad news:

City using more water
City, county, state and federal officials are busy exhorting San Diegans to save water. Yet the city increased its water usage in Fiscal 2014 by almost 3 billion gallons because of hot, dry weather and ironically, the drought.

Further, Caltrans, responsible for freeway upkeep, has been pouring some 720 million gallons of drinking water on medians and embankments in order to save trees and protect its investment in landscaping.

Although San Diego has two water reclamation plants, the pipe system for getting recycled water to willing customers (like Caltrans) has not been built-out by the city. Consequently, half the water reclaimed from the sewage system and processed by the reclamation plants, is pumped back into the sewage system and then out to sea. Seriously.

[DJSapp]

Auburn was always for flood control, not storage. Storage with that dam would just be incidental. Raising Folsom is a poor substitute from an flood control engineering perspective. Not that I'm in favor of Auburn, but keep it in context.

Desal isn't cost effective except in the deepest of deep droughts, and even then only in isolated areas.

Raising Folsom is pretty much a totally dead idea. Soil is too unstable from the hydraulic dredging to bedrock back in the late 1800's, way too many earthen dams to be raised, entire neighborhoods removed. That idea is DOA, but it is still possible to increase Folsom's effective capacity.

Folsom's SOP is to hit near peak storage in May-July and drop from there, bottoming out in January-Feb. The primary function is flood control, so all of the big rains that we got in December were immediately passed through any dam in CA and sent out to sea.

This transitions to Tippsters buddy, who while apparently mis-speaking, is correct that additional dams on currently damed rivers would actually help. This issue is that the reservoir systems are setup to catch the spring snowpack runoff. In order to operate the dams with a level of safety, dam operators must DUMP any early season rainfall events, and dump any excess water leftover from the summer. This is to protect against a rain on snow event that could bring in more water than the dam could release safely through the spillways, thus flooding and killing people downstream (the Natomas failure/genocide scenario), or leading to overtopping the dams and dam failure (very bad things). Currently USACE is spending about $1 Billion to create an additional spillway in order to release more water earlier (the original dam's spillway gates are at the top of the dam, new spillway gates are much lower). Building the Foresthill dam would be an additional upstream check, and would allow Folsom to operate at higher levels year round, which is a win for keeping the water we do get, and holding it until we need it. Raising Shasta I believe is on the books to start moving soon (EIR/Design phase). The big picture issue is storage capacity and retention. We just can't keep everything we get.

Also, fuck almonds and alfalfa shipped to Asia. I want my kids to play on some grass this summer.

[PB]

Am I just being paranoid, or is Jerry acting like the Tunnels are a done deal???

[DJSapp]

Perception = Reality

[Viva]

Raising Shasta I believe is on the books to start moving soon (EIR/Design phase).

Shasta was originally designed such that it could be raised an addition 100 or so feet when needed. It's also the only major dam in the state that captures mostly rainfall and not snowmelt. Or so I heard on a Huel Howser show.

[bodywhomper]

things are about to get ugly again, "State Water Board orders all post-1914 water rights holders within the Sacramento River watershed and Delta to stop diverting until further notice"

damns:
-folsom is not primarily a flood control dam. if that was true it would have been much smaller at original design. it's multi-functional
-same goes for auburn dam. it would have been half the design size if it was primarily for flood storage. it was designed as multi-functional
-i believe los vaqueros dam is in the planning stage for its third expansion
-calveras dam is almost done. it's a replacement dam, but designed with the ability to increase in size when the need arises
-bor recently released its deis for the proposed temperance flat dam, which would be immediately upstream (and partially within) of millerton lake
-bor should be coming out soon with its recommendation of new foothills dams as a climate change adaptation strategy
-there's more....

anybody read jay lund's blog post about new dams in CA; it focuses on the shasta dam raise. he generally does not support new fed dams: http://californiawaterblog.com/2012/...in-california/
here's the conclusion:

Overall, California’s water system functions in ways fundamentally different from how the major state and federal agencies conceive their major water supply system and planning investigations. This causes many state and federal planning studies to be ineffective, costly, prolonged, and distracting of public attention, rather than insightful and useful. At the local level, many water districts and agencies are doing a far better job of developing integrated portfolios of diverse and often decentralized actions to satisfy multiple objectives. Similar, but more difficult, analysis at state and regional levels will provide thought-provoking insights for both water and environmental management.

[LightRanger]

Pine Flat seems like one of the more promising options being kicked around. Unless I missed something, it doesn't have nearly as much opposition as other potential options.

[4matic]

I like the rail car idea for something easy to implement. Folsom or Shasta have easy rail access.

[Boomer28]

KCRW had a bit at lunch today on how this one valley grows pretty much nothing but various types of grass, including bermuda sod which is a huge export to the middle east......

Some have touched on this but the govt. is just going to have to step in sooner rather than later and really have a waterfall (Irony!) of what water can be used for. Hard fucking choices are going to be made which is funny because right now no one appears to be doing jack shit. I still see medians and freeway slopes being irrigated and people with huge green lawns they never use all over.

I know the San Diego tiered pricing thing was just ruled unconstitutional (which is absurd and we'll have to amend the state constitution now), but to me it's pretty simple:

Households get X gallons at Y rate up to a threshold which is a low-ish rate but still more than we pay now. Over that it goes up, above another level it goes WAY up. People drive less when gas goes up 20 cents, why can't we drive this behavior with accurate pricing of a scarce resource?

Second, certain businesses get a similar allowance based on type and usage. Third, other types of businesses like sod farms and golf courses are just fucked. Sorry but the constitution does not guarantee you a profitable business model in the face of a biblical drought. Fourth, cities need REAL penalties for waste and need REAL enforcement abilities. Right now it's a fucking joke of an honor system / hoping you don't get narced on. Fifth, a better state govt. lead on development: Every new commercial building has to have the flush-free urinals (the allegedly save 40k gallons per year!), better lawn rip-out incentives and incentives on other water saving devices and oh yea: no more fucking pools.

The end result is shit is going to get more expensive and you won't be able to retire to a golf course in La Quinta. Sorry about that but tough fucking titties (I love to golf FYI, but can't defend it much like I love guns but can't defend the NRA or our absurdly lax gun laws).

There is no real leadership on this issue right now and it is a joke. Hearing cities fighting back against the new reduction limits is just offensive. This is a slow moving disaster and no one is stepping up to do jack fucking shit and it is infuriating. /end rant

[Tippster]

I'm not sure how raising dams and/or building new ones are going to help a state whose reservoirs look like this:

[Viva]

Getting late- I'd better go out and wash my driveway before it's too dark.

[Game Over]

KCRW had a bit at lunch today on how this one valley grows pretty much nothing but various types of grass, including bermuda sod which is a huge export to the middle east......

Sounds like the Willamette Valley in western Oregon. Except its mostly ryegrass for golf courses, sports fields and lawns.

[Adolf Allerbush]

While I agree that water is or most valuable...

Oxygen is pretty high on my list.

[Bobby Finstock]

This is awesome. Central valley farmers are drilling so many wells the ground is starting to sink.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/bu...hbors-dry.html

[Rip'nStick]

KCRW had a bit at lunch today on how this one valley grows pretty much nothing but various types of grass, including bermuda sod which is a huge export to the middle east......

Some have touched on this but the govt. is just going to have to step in sooner rather than later and really have a waterfall (Irony!) of what water can be used for. Hard fucking choices are going to be made which is funny because right now no one appears to be doing jack shit. I still see medians and freeway slopes being irrigated and people with huge green lawns they never use all over.

I know the San Diego tiered pricing thing was just ruled unconstitutional (which is absurd and we'll have to amend the state constitution now), but to me it's pretty simple:

Households get X gallons at Y rate up to a threshold which is a low-ish rate but still more than we pay now. Over that it goes up, above another level it goes WAY up. People drive less when gas goes up 20 cents, why can't we drive this behavior with accurate pricing of a scarce resource?

Second, certain businesses get a similar allowance based on type and usage. Third, other types of businesses like sod farms and golf courses are just fucked. Sorry but the constitution does not guarantee you a profitable business model in the face of a biblical drought. Fourth, cities need REAL penalties for waste and need REAL enforcement abilities. Right now it's a fucking joke of an honor system / hoping you don't get narced on. Fifth, a better state govt. lead on development: Every new commercial building has to have the flush-free urinals (the allegedly save 40k gallons per year!), better lawn rip-out incentives and incentives on other water saving devices and oh yea: no more fucking pools.

The end result is shit is going to get more expensive and you won't be able to retire to a golf course in La Quinta. Sorry about that but tough fucking titties (I love to golf FYI, but can't defend it much like I love guns but can't defend the NRA or our absurdly lax gun laws).

There is no real leadership on this issue right now and it is a joke. Hearing cities fighting back against the new reduction limits is just offensive. This is a slow moving disaster and no one is stepping up to do jack fucking shit and it is infuriating. /end rant

Completely agree with this post. All points. Even with a potentially wet winter next year, all this will have to come to pass. Bet on it.

[DJSapp]

I'm not sure how raising dams and/or building new ones are going to help a state whose reservoirs look like this:

As I've explained before, it's a function of timing. Areas of Northern Ca had around 180%--200% of normal rainfall in December of 2014. That water was let go from reservoirs in order to have enough retention and flood protection capacity for the snowpack that was sure to follow. The Yolo bypass was flooded twice as the Sacramento and American Rivers we running high in December. Then the snowpack never came, and now we don't have water.

[Rip'nStick]

As I've explained before, it's a function of timing. Areas of Northern Ca had around 180%--200% of normal rainfall in December of 2014. That water was let go from reservoirs in order to have enough retention and flood protection capacity for the snowpack that was sure to follow. The Yolo bypass was flooded twice as the Sacramento and American Rivers we running high in December. Then the snowpack never came, and now we don't have water.

Why don't they release once the snowpack is there? Outdated policy? You seem to have some insight on this although, even though it perhaps a few steps removed from your line of work. Any suggestions on how to improve? Is this why we need to raise dams, to create more holding capacity?

[LightRanger]

This is awesome. Central valley farmers are drilling so many wells the ground is starting to sink.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/bu...hbors-dry.html

Been sinking for years, actually. It comes and goes depending on surface water availability. Here's a photo from 1977:



http://gallery.usgs.gov/photos/09_15...0#.VXnS6PlVhBc

[From_the_NEK]

Meanwhile, in the northeast...








Seriously though, CAians needs to figure out how to work together to reduce their water use. Watering lawns/golf courses and growing rice in a semi-arid drought stricken environment just makes them all seem like a bunch of greedy jerks. Although it sound like the water rights programs don't appear to encourage conservation which is even more ridiculous.

[DJSapp]

Why don't they release once the snowpack is there? Outdated policy? You seem to have some insight on this although, even though it perhaps a few steps removed from your line of work. Any suggestions on how to improve? Is this why we need to raise dams, to create more holding capacity?

As previously posted, Folsom dam has is designed that the spillway gates are at the top of the dam. This means that in a rain on snow event, water from a massive watershed can enter the lake significantly faster than the dam can release it, since the spillway gates are useless until the water is near the top. As such, Folsom lake must be kept low throughout the early winter months to protect against this event. ACoE has been working on building a new $1 billion spillway with gates that are significantly lower for about a decade, and the project is close to completion. This would allow the lake to operate through the winter at a higher level.

http://www.spk.usace.army.mil/Missio...ySpillway.aspx

Several other N. Cal dams share this same design issue. Folsom is one of the largest, with the largest watershed at risk for a rain on snow event. I believe raising Shasta is next in line. Building check dams further upstream to help regulate incoming flows will help us retain more water during the early winter.

[DJSapp]

Seriously though, CAians needs to figure out how to work together to reduce their water use. Watering lawns/golf courses and growing rice in a semi-arid drought stricken environment just makes them all seem like a bunch of greedy jerks. Although it sound like the water rights programs don't appear to encourage conservation which is even more ridiculous.

Let me give you my one step solution:

1. Create a 40% export tax on all food/ag products grown in CA and shipped outside of the USA.

Drought solved. Carry on.