ProtoPolyAss: What About Building Water Pipelines To CA and the SW?

[My Pet Powder Goat]

Can you get sick from drinking piss?

"Pretty sure, ya"

"Even if it's your own?!?"

[gravitylover]

Since I was a little kid I've had this idea of a continent wide water delivery system. It could be the largest public works project in the history of mankind kinda thing. I'm talking pipes into the craziest places for water intake and then into every existing public system and additional small systems that would eventually get built to move water to places that are well only now.

It seems that there is always somewhere it's raining and there are always places just letting their fresh water run away because it's beyond their needs and there is no way to store it and no system to move it to where it is needed. I'm not talking about tapping the Great Lakes although they should be part of the larger system.

[powpig]

I first heard talk of a pipeline to transport water to SoCal in the 90s. Texas used to have what seemed like yearly flooding from torrential rains. More water than they knew what to do with and SoCal needs it, seemed like a match made in heaven.
The price was exorbitant and evidently a deal breaker and though I'm not up on my national weather trends these days, I don't recall hearing of Texas floods in recent years so maybe it was a just a bad idea if the supply was fleeting and not dependable.

[stalefish3169]

How about people stop having so many damn kids?

There...I said it. Sure it will take a while to feel the positive effects. But this common sense solution needs to move out of the taboo category rapidly. I know this is 'Murica and all, but how about you have 2 kids or less and you get a tax break? You have 8 kids and you pay a shitload of taxes? The environment is fucked now. What happens when we have 12 billion people in 35ish years?

[KQ]

I first heard talk of a pipeline to transport water to SoCal in the 90s. Texas used to have what seemed like yearly flooding from torrential rains. More water than they knew what to do with and SoCal needs it, seemed like a match made in heaven.
The price was exorbitant and evidently a deal breaker and though I'm not up on my national weather trends these days, I don't recall hearing of Texas floods in recent years so maybe it was a just a bad idea if the supply was fleeting and not dependable.

Uhh yeah, Texas had a little dought:



Agronomists have revised estimates for the cost of Texas’ devastating drought, finding that it cost the agricultural sector $2 billion more than originally thought.

According to the Texas AgriLife Extension Service, the Texas drought has caused $7.62 billion in damages to crops and farming operations. That’s up from $5.3 billion reported last August.

Texas State Climatologist John Nielsen-Gammon explained last September:
Warmer temperatures lead to greater water demand, faster evaporation, and greater drying-out of potential fuels for fire. Thus, the impacts of the drought were enhanced by global warming, much of which has been caused by man.

Nearly every single agricultural sector in the state was hammered by the record-breaking drought that began in 2010, causing a ripple effect through global commodity markets. With livestock, cotton, peanut and even pumpkin crops hit hard, shortages of product is driving prices up and putting a squeeze on farmers in the state

“When you are one of the biggest agricultural producing states in the nation, a monumental drought causes enormous losses,” Texas Agriculture Commissioner Todd Staples said in a statement this week after the new damage figures were released. Other agricultural experts weighed in on the devastating impact to Texas farmers:

“2011 was the driest year on record and certainly an infamous year of distinction for the state’s farmers and ranchers,” said Dr. David Anderson, AgriLife Extension livestock economist. “The $7.62 billion mark for 2011 is more than $3.5 billion higher than the 2006 drought loss estimates, which previously was the costliest drought on record. The 2011 losses also represent about 43 percent of the average value of agricultural receipts over the last four years.”
“No one alive has seen single-year drought damage to this extent,” said Dr. Travis Miller, AgriLife Extension agronomist and a member of the Governor’s Drought Preparedness Council. “Texas farmers and ranchers are not strangers to drought, but the intensity of the drought, reflected in record high temperatures, record low precipitation, unprecedented winds coupled with duration – all came together to devastate production agriculture.”
Like a baseball hitter on steroids, climatologists say that the likelihood of the Texas drought was increased due to the concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Scientists at NASA, including climatologist James Hansen, said in January that analysis of 50 years of temperature data show that the Texas drought was “a consequence of global warming because their likelihood was negligible prior to the recent rapid global warming.”



Texas A&M, climate scientist Andrew Dessler asserted last August, “there is absolutely no way you can conclude that climate change is not playing a role here. I’m quite surprised that anyone would even suggest that.” Texas climatologist Katherine Hayhoe recently explained, “our natural variability is now occurring on top of, and interacting with, background conditions that have already been altered by long-term climate change.”

Just as we see during the current heat wave shattering high-temperature records throughout the U.S., climatologists and meteorologists are consistently saying that these extreme weather events are being influenced by extra energy in the atmosphere (see March Madness: ‘This May Be An Unprecedented Event Since Modern U.S. Weather Records Began In The Late 19th Century’).

“It is highly unlikely the warmth of the current ‘Summer in March’ heat wave could have occurred unless the climate was warming,” said Dr. Jeff Masters of the Weather Underground in a scientific analysis of the phenomenon.

As the rest of the country catches up to Texas, farmers in the state continue to incur billions in damages — a sign of the economic costs to come.

[LightRanger]

What's amazing is that there is any Western state left that does not fully recognize that surface water and groundwater might be hydrologically connected.

What state would that be? Any other states out there extend the public trust doctrine to groundwater?: http://legal-planet.org/2014/07/21/g...ifornia-style/ http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/env...ater-case.html

What DJSapp said is correct re selling water. Temporary transfers happen and are happening. Long-term transfers are much harder due to the nature of water rights: being usufructory and not truly real property; priority system; use-it-or-lose it system; and the area-of-origin statutes. The latter were enacted in the 30s to prevent Chinatown Round 2, and to address the Federal and State Projects.

[powtario]

Ironically Denver takes from the Co headwaters just west of the Divide with multiple tunnels running E to fill up reservoirs.

90% of Great Lakes water is 'fossil water' aka been there since the ice ages, the catchment of the lakes is TINY if you look at it, and the states and provinces have given a big FU to anyone outside the basin who has recently looked to take any.

This isn't new, people hVe just decided to not do anything about it till now......https://water.usgs.gov/edu/pictures/...land-calif.jpg

[Rideski]

Texas flood

[concretejungle]

Can you guarantee that this plan will keep Californians in California? If so I think a lot of people might support it.

[Hugh Jaynus]

Pipelines are band-aids, Allen Savory offers sustainable solutions.

[Skidog]

More water is used in almond production than is used by all the residents and businesses of San Francisco and Los Angeles combined.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/almon...#ixzz3WBglBj90

Waiting for this one. Ca has a couple crops that are huge and are considered some of the most water needy plants.
Fuck almond milk. Just eat the 5 almonds typically used in a half gallon of that scam. You'll get all the nurtients the almonds have. Not watered down versions.

[char]

I'm fine with massive water projects so long as the users of the water don't get it subsidized. The complaints of irrigators about water prices or their access to subsidized water are even more annoying when you realize how little they have been paying to access the water. Raise prices to match the scarcity of the product, and watch flood irrigation and other wasteful water practices be replaced with highly efficient ways of using water.

[Skidog]

ha..this is CLASSIC STUPID

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...ew-water-park/

[MontuckyFried]

Trying to save California (lots of desert) from drought seems about as futile as trying to keep the water out of the parts of Louisiana that are below sea level. Why can't Californians figure out the usage issue? Oh yeah, it's because they're not willing to make the REAL changes necessary.

Piping water into CA is akin to giving a panhandler money. Just give them what they want, and the result is that they won't change their habits. Now if they clean up their act first and start ending up with a sustainable level of usage, THEN we'll talk about helping them out...maybe.

[riser4]

It is completely needing to change the mindset that water is a infinite resource.

Why do you hate 'Murica?

[Foggy_Goggles]

This place always amazes with the knowledge. But I've know for a long time that Buster, Butters and DJ are nerds just like me. I live in a place, the Fraser River Valley, where approximately 70% of the native river flow is diverted to the front range by Northern Water and Denver Water. The impacts to the ecosystem and the way of life are real.

Check it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzWA8gTb4og

In the west, the water law is governed by the Prior Appropriation Doctrine. This system is fucked but it ain't gonna change. Pretty much all the water conservation groups have decided that education of the public is the best tack. Most people view a water shortage as when you turn the tap on nothing comes out. It is true than residential water usage is only a percentage (statistics vary) of total use. However these are the people that vote and can (optimist) guide public policy.
Bottom line, in the near future, our best bet is to focus on conservation by all users. Collectively, we all need to take a little pain. More efficient use of water for agriculture and responsible residential use would be a great start.

[MontuckyFried]

More efficient use of water for agriculture and responsible residential use would be a great start.

And don't forget commercial. When I used to live down south, one of the things that ticked me off the most during drought years, was how many commercial properties would have their automated sprinklers doing their thing when it was raining (the few times that it did). There are overrides. Just very few people bother with them. SO much blatant waste is from those properties.

One of things I got into when I was a homeowner in South TX was xeriscaping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeriscaping). It's so easy to make your landscaping work well with the local conditions. Gasp! What a concept! I had awesome grass that rarely needed to be watered (or mowed). Mostly native plants that didn't give a crap if it rained or not, but bloomed like mad when it did. Made for a beautiful yard that needed VERY little maintenance. No in-ground irrigation systems needed. It worked incredibly well. That sort of landscape planning should be MANDATORY for any new construction in arid regions of CA. It's asinine to want yards that look like the Garden of Buckingham Palace...in the freaking desert.

Now as for ag!!!...

[Ted Striker]

How about people stop having so many damn kids?

this

[Dantheman]

How about people stop having so many damn kids?

There...I said it. Sure it will take a while to feel the positive effects. But this common sense solution needs to move out of the taboo category rapidly. I know this is 'Murica and all, but how about you have 2 kids or less and you get a tax break? You have 8 kids and you pay a shitload of taxes? The environment is fucked now. What happens when we have 12 billion people in 35ish years?

If not for immigration the population of the US would be declining. Same goes for pretty much every developed nation.

I'm fine with massive water projects so long as the users of the water don't get it subsidized. The complaints of irrigators about water prices or their access to subsidized water are even more annoying when you realize how little they have been paying to access the water. Raise prices to match the scarcity of the product, and watch flood irrigation and other wasteful water practices be replaced with highly efficient ways of using water.

Fuck you you un-American fuck. Suckling at the federal water tit is a God-given right that shall not be infringed. Don't you dare call me out as the welfare queen that I am.



Bottom line, the only places left to be tapped are the PNW, Canada and AK. Any project of that scale would be so expensive that if the water were not subsidized no one would be able to afford it.

ha..this is CLASSIC STUPID

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...ew-water-park/

Meh, it's a literal drop from the proverbial bucket. With proper construction and management the actual consumptive use will probably be negligible.

[Foggy_Goggles]

I guess we're on a derail but fuck it, it's TGR. Compared to CA, where I live is pretty small potatoes. That said, I'm a fight local type. I attended a public comment session regarding diverting more water to the front range. The first speaker was the Mayor of the City of Thornton (a front range suburb), who tried to argue that his city was a responsible consumer of water. I was the second speaker, I called him out on Thonrton have unmetered water. You just play a flat rate and water as much as you want whenever you want. I also show him a picture of acres of blue grass in an office park with the sprinkler on during a thunderstorm. He promptly left.

I live between two creeks that feed the Fraser which is diverted to the front range. I pay approximatly 5X as much for my water and I have a domestic only water tap. It is not legal for me to water my yard or wash my car.

Back on track to large scale diversions. To see the type of shit being dreamed up, google Yampa River Pumpback. Thankfully, due to energy costs this appears unrealistic.

[DJSapp]

I <3 the talk of cutting the water subsidy for CA farmers. You know what happens when you cut that? Produce and meat prices rise as the farmers costs rise, cause big ag isn't going to take it in the butt like that. More people go hungry and on food stamps. Americans going hungry or eating a further nutritionally deficient diet and increasing obesity. The moral is, someone is GOING to be subsidized; we just need to choose who it will be. In general, people are happier feeling like they are self sustaining (i.e. NOT on welfare) so giving the corporations the subsidy makes people happier.

We've already seen this happening from the Texas drought and the rising cost of beef. Ground beef has gone from $2/lb to $4/lb around here over the last 2-3 years.

What is funny about this drought is that it is the farmers who are in control. The almond orchards and vineyards that are in full swing now take a couple years to get up and producing, and now that they are seeing the return on investment (and a subsequent change in american's eating habits), they're panicking. Once some orchards die off and the drought breaks, they will plant different crops, probably annuals. These farmers effectively control our eating habits. Back in the 30's-70's people ate a lot more figs. Why was that? The central valley was packed with fig orchards. Those are gone now. We are in the age of the almond. This too will pass.

[DJSapp]

ha..this is CLASSIC STUPID

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...ew-water-park/

Yup, total public perception issue. While it takes them 1 million gallons to fill their pools for an entire summer, I'll dump that much on bare soil in a week every single week for two years to keep dust down on the construction site I'm heading to in 2016, and get thrown in jail if I don't do it.

People can't quantify volumes larger than what they can carry.

[stalefish3169]

If not for immigration the population of the US would be declining. Same goes for pretty much every developed nation.

As someone who used to teach human geography, I'm aware of this. However it doesn't change my opinion. It makes me cringe every time I see an obese set of parents with their 7 little chunky rugrats in tow.

[TahoeJ]

The real problem with ag is that fucking wall street investment types got involved. They saw the opportunity of poorly regulated water for dirt cheap, so they've been building a shit-load of almond farms with the idea that they can make a ton of money over the next decade until proper regulation and water control finally sets in. Then they'll just walk away having made so much money that the land acquisition is an afterthought even if the water regulations devalue the property when they unload it. Does this drought make them nervous? Maybe a little, but not really because they own all of the politicians who could impact them in the short term. We would have to have a few more years of this extreme drought for farmer's water to get a mandatory reduction, and even then it would probably be more window dressing PR than actual cutbacks.

This was explained to me by a friend who has been knee deep in this water bullshit for the past 20 years. I over-simplified things a bit, but that was the jist of it. Rumor has it Condi Rice is deeply involved (indirectly, but financially tied).

[Dantheman]

As someone who used to teach human geography, I'm aware of this. However it doesn't change my opinion. It makes me cringe every time I see an obese set of parents with their 7 little chunky rugrats in tow.

Since you admit that the problem you are complaining about doesn't actually exist, I'm not really sure what your point is.