ProtoPolyAss: What About Building Water Pipelines To CA and the SW?

[iceman]

Maybe almonds seem somewhat more frivolous to people, like a snack, while alfalfa all people know is it's a regular farm crop and animals eat it so it seems more core/important.

[Gcooker]

Bomb Canada, divert the Fraser River, profit.

[BraddA]

Pricing, pricing, pricing. The econ really is that simple. Yes, ag will take it...big time. So what? Are we really going to defend the model that's killing the West?

In other news, these guys are doing neat stuff: http://waterfx.co/news/press-releases/

Edit: ok, so there's lot's killing the West...

[Buster Highmen]

It's funny how most "serious' responses are so heavily seasoned with snot.

I've had people tell me this is not only a great idea (running a pipe from the Columbia River to Sandy Bagel) but convey that haughty incredulity that it hasn't been done or couldn't be seen as reasonable by even the most slow people.

[neufox47]

3. It's a drought. Droughts do pass in time. If it's climate change, the population will move.

While agriculture may go elsewhere, I can't see the population centers moving. Even if most areas had to rely on 100% desalination, the cost is a drop in the bucket compared to the value of the real estate and infrastructure that is already in place.

[Dantheman]

In other news, these guys are doing neat stuff: http://waterfx.co/news/press-releases/

After six months in operation, the 6,500 square-foot, solar-powered test facility on North Russell Avenue has produced up to 8 gallons per minute of pure water from saline discharge drainage

"Neat" is an apt description for a system that produces a whopping 8 gpm.

[KQ]

Fracking or drinking water? That may become the choice

[DJSapp]

What about what SD is doing?

San Diego agrees to turn recycled wastewater into drinking water

Totally achievable and not horrifically expensive, however if your local wastewater treatment plant eventually discharges into a surface water body, it is getting picked up and turned into drinking water somewhere else downstream. There are two main issues though--public perception is tough to break and only about 30-40% of water used in cities actually makes it back to the sewage plant. The quantity isn't there to dent this.

Further, ag is the main water consumer in the state. The Farm lobby is why there's so much noise about this drought. The poor farmers of the valley are either forced to drill more wells (and further accelerating the subsidence issues in the valley) or letting their fields go fallow. The recent almond boom in the market (almond milk, almond flour, almond butter, etc.) has triggered the valley farmers to plant more almond fields which are exceptionally water intensive, as they water their fields by flooding them. Yes, flooding them. In 100 degree dry heat. Super effective use of water.

Alfalfa is another issue as it is just a market exploit due to the trade imbalance with China. Loading up empty containers going to Bejing is cheaper than shipping to Portland at the moment.

As for high speed rail, you have a better idea of how to move tens of thousands of people inbetween cities every day for less money? Please say hyperloop. I love it when morons talk about the hyperloop and they actually believe Musk's idea without actually having read his proposal, or having any concept of basic engineering principles and construction costs.

[GeezerSteve]

More water is used in almond production than is used by all the residents and businesses of San Francisco and Los Angeles combined.

Mother Jones ran a recent article in which an expert figured that it takes >1 gallon of water to grow each CA almond. Freaky

For those who haven't read it, pick up a copy of Cadillac Desert: The American West and Its Disappearing Water, a remarkable and informative book, as good as non-fiction gets, will educate the reader about how the fuck we got where we are.

[Game Over]

oops i should hit refresh- this was in response to Ice's first post on this page...

well in that sense what about horses. There are 10 million horses in the US and the common figure thrown around that each horse takes up 7 acres of farmland in pasture and growing feed. Im sure the water footprint of a horse is not small.

[Buster Highmen]

well in that sense what about horses. There are 10 million horses in the US and the common figure thrown around that each horse takes up 7 acres of farmland in pasture and growing feed. Im sure the water footprint of a horse is not small.

Just remember son, that the west wasn't won on mountainbikes.

[Game Over]

i recall a figure-> something like 26 million draft animals at the peak in 1915 and that the move to mechanical tractors freed around 160 million acres of farmland and pasture that was used to feed them.

[PNWbrit]

well in that sense what about horses.

Pipes would probably work better at transporting water than on horseback?

[Buster Highmen]

John Wayne rode tractors?

[KQ]

will educate the reader about how the fuck we got where we are.

Hard to believe that people can't understand "how the fuck we got where we are" but as a species humans can be pretty stump dump.

[KQ]

oops i should hit refresh- this was in response to Ice's first post on this page...

well in that sense what about horses. There are 10 million horses in the US and the common figure thrown around that each horse takes up 7 acres of farmland in pasture and growing feed. Im sure the water footprint of a horse is not small.

some dry reading for you:



A Global Assessment of the Water
Footprint of Farm Animal Products

[Game Over]

Hard to believe that people can't understand "how the fuck we got where we are" but as a species humans can be pretty stump dump.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulare_Lake

edit- Thanks KQ-> Ive read that link. didnt think people would care that a horse water footprint is 1.3 acre feet of water a year....
edit 2- that study includes rainfall -> many think that rainfall should not be included in footprint as dryland farming is not the issue...

[KQ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulare_Lake

edit- Thanks KQ-> Ive read that link. didnt think people would care that a horse water footprint is 1.3 acre feet of water a year....

as I said - stump dumb



A postcard shows what remained after a herd of buffalo was slaughtered; buffalo skulls piled on grassland, somewhere in Michigan.

[Game Over]

FWIW according to all the signs along I-5 this is simply a "congress created dust bowl"

[GeezerSteve]

Hard to believe that people can't understand "how the fuck we got where we are" but as a species humans can be pretty stump dump.

Well, so you know all about how dam building deals controlled the direction of Congress for decades, Floyd Dominy, Army COE v. BLM rivalry, William Mulhollond, O'Shaughnessy dam, etc., etc., but not everyone does.

[Bromontana]

Let the Arabs finance western research into desal. plants, refine the tech for a period and implement in CA.

[DJSapp]

While agriculture may go elsewhere, I can't see the population centers moving. Even if most areas had to rely on 100% desalination, the cost is a drop in the bucket compared to the value of the real estate and infrastructure that is already in place.

San Diego has been under some form of housing moratorium since 2004 due to lack of water supply. The infrastructure is only the CA government's issue, not the population's. The public can walk away. Ag is here to stay as long as there is water to fuel them. They have endured drought before. 12.8% of the US total ag production in one central location isn't something you walk away from. The quality of soil and sunshine isn't something that you can take with you. The tech folks can pack their laptops and beat it.

The new plant in SD is over one billion dollars to supply 50 million gallons a day: for reference the California aqueduct can deliver nearly that much EVERY HOUR. Water from desal costs approximately 10x the cost of conventional water supplies, that is, while there is enough capacity within our own power grid to supply the plants. To achieve 100% desal, we're talking about a complete western US power grid upgrade, complete with enough power plants to push the megawatts of energy required to run the plants. Who on the west coast is ready to approve a new Nuke plant?

The main problem with desal is that it is too expensive to operate consistently, which turns operators off from building them in the first place. It is not likely to ever see a positive return on investment as once we have a good snow year, all of the desal plants get mothballed. It's the same logic behind the fracking boom of the moment. If OPEC and the Saudi's decided to up production, fracking gets mothballed until the next supply crunch. This is what happened to Santa Barbara and their desal.

[DJSapp]

FWIW according to all the signs along I-5 this is simply a "congress created dust bowl"

Yup. They all believe that the water in the CA aqueduct should be theirs (i.e. fuck LA) and that the delta should be sucked through right up to the point the whole thing is full of brackish water.

[Game Over]

i think its crazy that most places in California have no ground water protection laws. Here on our farm in Lane County, Oregon we have two strong wells (and several creeks but thats aside the point) and we can't use a drop for farm use aside from watering livestock. From what I gather nothing is stopping farmers down there in many locals from drilling wells and pumping water at will.

[LightRanger]

i think its crazy that most places in California have no ground water protection laws.

That just changed, as of last year. Though implementation/phase-in needs to speed up A LOT.