NSR: Hybrid Vehicles

[skimaxpower]

While there are many reasons to purchase electric or hybrid, I'm curious if anybody has actually run the numbers on the a hybrid vs standard gasoline? When my wife and I were in the market a few years ago I put together a spreadsheet that allowed me to calculate break even point. I was looking mainly at the Honda Civic vs. Civic hybrid at the time...and my memory is that it would take approx 15 years before we would have hit the break even point with gas at $4/gallon. If gas is cheaper, it would take longer to break even. Has anybody run the numbers and found something different?

Depends on a lot of factors, including: tax breaks for hybrid, carpool lane access for hybrid, fuel costs, engine reliability, and which cars you're comparing.

IIRC, the Civic hybrid doesn't offer the same kind of increase you'd gain compared to (for example) Toyota Corollo vs Toyota Prius.

[sethschmautz]

IIRC, the Civic hybrid doesn't offer the same kind of increase you'd gain compared to (for example) Toyota Corollo vs Toyota Prius.

That's helpful, thanks. It might be a year or so before we buy, and I'll take another look. I was running straight Fuel costs so it sounds like there were savings that I was missing.

Seth

[GeezerSteve]

IIRC, the Civic hybrid doesn't offer the same kind of increase you'd gain compared to (for example) Toyota Corollo vs Toyota Prius.

Well, that depends on the type of driving and the driver. Toyota hybrid system will yield better MPG for in city driving, e.g., Prius will get better city MPG than Insight will. (Prius city MPG is often higher than highway MPG.) OTOH, on the highway, the Prius and Insight/Civic (mild) hybrid systems will yield roughly similar MPG, depending on how the driver drives. The EPA numbers are generally lower than actual performance and do not correlate well to actual MPG performance, i.e., most Pirus and Insight drivers get better highway MPG than the EPA numbers, often much higher. Toyota hybrid fly-by-wire is programmed to do well on the EPA MPG test course, but by contrast the Honda mild hybrid MPG performance is much more determined by driver habits. (Fuelly numbers are a much better guide than EPA numbers.) Also, on hilly terrain the Insight often gets better MPG than Prius because the Insight is lighter. My Insight gets 55-60MPG on hilly 2-lane roads with 55mph speed limits if I drive with a light foot. On interstates with 70mph speed limit that lowers to low 50s MPG in summer. Learning to maximize hybrid MPG is part of the fun of owning a hybrid.

[char]

Steve-

I wonder if cities have responded to the MPG maximization hybrid drivers practice when leaving lights by extending the green cycle? It drives me nuts when a hybrid driver leaves a green light by accelerating as slowly as possible, typically leaving quite a few cars stuck at the light for the next cycle. At first I thought I was imagining it, but once I learned about the indicators provided to the driver indicating their efficiency I figured it must be real.

[GeezerSteve]

Blame the driver, not the hybrid. Hybrids have the ability to get off the line at a traffic light as fast or faster than non-hybrids because the 3-phase motors have lots of low-end torque, e.g., Prius electric motor has torque spec of 295 ft.lbs. @ 0rpm. Yup, that's right, big torque at zero RPM. Honda's mild hybrid system requires the gasoline motor to start from a dead start, but that only takes a fraction of a second. FWIW, IME the slowest vehicles off the line at traffic lights, other than loaded trucks, are VW diesel cars.

Anyway, people looking at their cell phones at a traffic light causes way more delay time IME.

[char]

Blame the driver, not the hybrid. Hybrids have the ability to get off the line at a traffic light as fast or faster than non-hybrids because the 3-phase motors have lots of low-end torque, e.g., Prius electric motor has torque spec of 295 ft.lbs. @ 0rpm. Yup, that's right, big torque at zero RPM. Honda's mild hybrid system requires the gasoline motor to start from a dead start, but that only takes a fraction of a second. FWIW, IME the slowest vehicles off the line at traffic lights, other than loaded trucks, are VW diesel cars.

Anyway, people looking at their cell phones at a traffic light causes way more delay time IME.

I'm definitely blaming the driver, just wondering if it has to do with a little blinky light telling them they are not in Eco range. Good points.

[GeezerSteve]

I dunno what if the Prius has those blinking lights, not sure they're necessary with Toyota's fly by wire system. Honda uses a blue (less efficient) > green (more efficient) continuum, which is pretty effective, but doesn't really come into play getting off the line cuz it's gonna be blue no matter how light one is on the gas pedal.

[klauss]

Purchased a used 2012 prius that came with roof rack and extra set of wheels with studless snows. Works great in the snow. I prefer to take it up to hill solo, but when the whole fam goes we use the sequoia. I read about the traction control being an issue in early generations, but I have not noticed it yet in the 2012.