NSR: Hybrid Vehicles

[char]

I've been considering picking up a hybrid vehicle, but know very little about the long term cost of ownership. In particular I am wondering about the battery packs; failure rates and cost to replace are the big concerns. Any thoughts on buying used?

I am assuming that these cars handle "ok" in snow with decent tires, but is it possible to chain them up? I am currently getting ~25 mpg and would like to get that above the mid 40's. Gas is cheap at the moment, but that probably won't last.

[ill-advised strategy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ailr37_nO5Q

[uglymoney]

I've been considering picking up a hybrid vehicle, but know very little about the long term cost of ownership. In particular I am wondering about the battery packs; failure rates and cost to replace are the big concerns. Any thoughts on buying used?

I am assuming that these cars handle "ok" in snow with decent tires, but is it possible to chain them up? I am currently getting ~25 mpg and would like to get that above the mid 40's. Gas is cheap at the moment, but that probably won't last.

We have a 2012 Prius V with Michelin Xi3's and 56k. Handles the snow great. Gets great mileage. Battery packs tend to last the life of the car but exceptions exist. Usually used battery packs can be bought relatively cheaply at junkyards because demand curve favors the buyer (most cars don't ever need them) - I looked just now on Ebay quick and they are between 500 and 1000 with a warranty. We have had zero issues with the car. A true road warrior.

We get mid 40's summer. Around 38-40 winter. About 30 with our huge ski box on the roof in the winter. Keep in mind the car is much bigger than my 2002 Outback inside for occupants and has as much cargo space.

http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/pri...gonater/141918

We haven't used chains. Looks like there is room for cables.

[TexasGortex]

I'm considering buying a used Prius for my commuting and daily driving. Their total cost of ownership is very very low according to consumer reports and the like. They are so de-tuned that they apparently run forever with little maintenance. Battery replacement appears to be able to be done for a little under a grand (according to my mechanic and ebay). I've been watching the used market pretty close, and haven't seen many battery packs replaced prematurely and many with a shitload of miles on the original batteries (200k plus). I've also noticed that tons of them are being sold with really high mileage; I take that as a good sign/indicator of reliability. Unfortunately they hold their value a little too well for my cheap ass.

I'd love more info on how they handle snow with proper snow tires. I've heard that they are programmed not to spin the tires so you can get totally stuck on some relatively tame conditions (because you can't just power out). I've never driven one in the snow myself though, and I drive a 4x4 truck... so take that with a grain of salt.

This info is only valid for the Prius, not other hybrids. It's the only one I've researched.

[Ted Striker]

You will never need a new drive battery in a Prius, unless you actually kill it yourself by being stupid and driving the car after it's run out of gas.

Read this: http://driving.ca/toyota/prius/auto-...blazing-cabbie

Plus, people crash Priuses all the time. Used battery packs can be had for under a grand.

[Tye 1on]

When the 200 mile range plugin cars (Chevy Bolt and Tesla) come out in 2017 I'll start looking hard-

[EaglesPDX]

I'd love more info on how they handle snow with proper snow tires. I've heard that they are programmed not to spin the tires so you can get totally stuck on some relatively tame conditions (because you can't just power out). I've never driven one in the snow myself though, and I drive a 4x4 truck... so take that with a grain of salt.

Handles snow and ice great with Michelin X-ice's. This one has slightly oversized Michelin's which increases ground clearance to 5.7", mug guards, full 3M shield (lots of gravel on the road) and body side molding which comes in handy as little rippers on the four wheeler behemoth (who was slip sliding on the ice in back of me) fling open the doors. This one is coming off lease with 70K so I have to let it go or pay big mileage penalty (got it when my commute was short). Dealer is hot to get it (the resale) but a shame as perfect for 2015 skiing season for someone.

[EaglesPDX]

When the 200 mile range plugin cars (Chevy Bolt and Tesla) come out in 2017 I'll start looking hard-

Tesla S with AWD is $94K...less $7,500 tax credit...less $25,000 in fuel over 7 years...less $5000 for no oil change, tuneups etc....$56K net if you've got the upfront cash of $94K.

While the front wheel drive on the Prius (or any car) is fine for snow and ice, Tesla's rear wheel drive would probably require their AWD version.

[TexasGortex]

What did the oversized tires do to MPG?
What is the longest pair of skis you've been able to fit inside?
Any weaknesses you've found?

[maskinut]

Tesla S with AWD is $94K...less $7,500 tax credit...less $25,000 in fuel over 7 years...less $5000 for no oil change, tuneups etc....$56K net if you've got the upfront cash of $94K.

While the front wheel drive on the Prius (or any car) is fine for snow and ice, Tesla's rear wheel drive would probably require their AWD version.

Note. After 7 years you will probably need 10-15 k for a new battery due to degradation.

[EaglesPDX]

Note. After 7 years you will probably need 10-15 k for a new battery due to degradation.

Note...after 7 years you probably won't need a new battery (we heard same bogus claim on Prius) but Tesla guarantees resale and battery.

[xcboard]

I bought a 2011 Prius this summer, Toyota certified with a 8 year hybrid battery warranty. Love it. Great car. Model "three" with a nice JBL stereo and Bluetooth phone. I got right around 50mpg in the summer, now about 40 or a little less when it's been below zero. That number depends on how many cold starts happen though, if I was to get in and drive a couple hundred miles it would be closer to 45mpg. Bought Michelin Xice3 and it has been a tank in the snow.

I hear the previous generation Prius isn't as good in the snow. Something about the traction control system.

[uglymoney]

I hear the previous generation Prius isn't as good in the snow. Something about the traction control system.

Didn't allow enough wheel spin - same problem on a lot of older Toyotas but the Prius doesn't/didn't have a disable switch like some Yota's (Sienna). Not sure when they changed the programming but my understanding is newer Prius have a more aggressive wheel spin profile in the traction control system. We've never run into a situation where ours was bogged down by the traction control and it seems to let the tires spin up a bit when I toy with it.

[Dshack89]

What is the longest pair of skis you've been able to fit inside?

In our 2008 Prius we drop the smaller side of the backseat and keep a 18 Gallon tote behind the wider side to hold boots. I can easily fit my 191 powder skis at an angle, even with the driver seat slid all the way back. This config allows me to still have 4 seat belts.

I have X-Ices installed and they have worked fine driving around SLC. I take the ski bus up LCC on any deep days just so I don't have to deal with driving. I bet the car would be just fine.

MPG definitely suffers in wintertime...I average about 36-38 MPG going up/down LCC on a dry day. But, I can't complain!

[TexasGortex]

Thanks for the info.

[skimaxpower]

2003 O.G. Prius in the family. Only about 75K on the 12-year-old battery, but no issues yet.

Not a great ski car, but I think concerns about battery life are unfounded.

[alfajores]

We get mid 40's summer. Around 38-40 winter. About 30 with our huge ski box on the roof in the winter. Keep in mind the car is much bigger than my 2002 Outback inside for occupants and has as much cargo space.

http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/pri...gonater/141918

We haven't used chains. Looks like there is room for cables.

Interesting. My 2015 Outback 2.5l gets 32 mpg average with a 12cf skybox on top and 4 people with gear. That was with ice on the road and the all weather tires. I can drive like a granny in that thing and use the recommended manual compression braking on the CVTi when going down hill.

[uglymoney]

Pretty good. Our box is 18 cf and I am talking real calculated numbers. Our 4 Runner gets about 14 and the 2002 Outback around 21 or 22 doing the same circuit. YMMV.

[GeezerSteve]

I have a 2013 (gen2) Honda Insight. Traction control can be disabled with a switch -- which is the thing to do sometimes when going slow up an icy road or getting out of a snowy parking lot. Dunno about new Prius, but mid-00's Priuses will sometimes shut down and require rebooting when trying to crawl up a grade on ice. The ability to disable the TC, a bit more ground clearance, less fly-by-wire-feel and stiffer suspension for dirt roads is why I got the Insight over a Prius. Don't get me wrong tho: my buds' Priuses do pretty well as trailhead cars and I see plenty o' them in ski area parking lots.

It's all bout the tires, of course. I am currently running low rolling resistance tires (not great on ice/snow) cuz I can use wife's Subie for snowy days. I've driven an Insight with brand new Blizzaks and it was a very able snow car. If we ever move E of the crest I'll likely put studs on all 4 wheels thru the winter.

I have fit up to 186cm skis inside with the left rear split seat down.

I have Thule chains for my Insight but have never used them. Clearance seems sufficient.

Battery life is largely an imaginary issue. Per actual data, the large majority of hybrid batteries have lasted much longer than originally contemplated, but the hybrid haters on Fox News and elsewhere have fabricated horror stories. If you do need a hybrid battery, there are aftermarket options. Honda hybrid batteries are a bunch of NiMH D-cells all wired together. There are firms that test each cell and replace only the bad ones.

MPG definitely goes down in winter, but that is true of all cars due to ethanol mix, more dense air, etc. I went up to and back from Alpy yesterday with some stop & go city traffic on the return @ 41 +MPG, not the 50+MPG I get going to and from THs in summer, but not bad.

ETA: Take all anecdotal MPG claims with a grain of salt, of course.

[grskier]

Waiting for a good replacement for the '06 Jeep Grand Cherokee... thing is a hog... but going to throw the rocket box on the audi wagon for future trips. we've been getting over 30 mpg on longer trips. Avg 28.4 since I got it 2 years ago.

My sister loves her Highlander Hybrid.. it's getting about 26-28, which isn't bad for that size.

These low gas prices might put you in a buyers market for a short period..... maybe!?

[toast2266]

Tesla S with AWD is $94K...less $7,500 tax credit...less $25,000 in fuel over 7 years...less $5000 for no oil change, tuneups etc....$56K net if you've got the upfront cash of $94K.

While the front wheel drive on the Prius (or any car) is fine for snow and ice, Tesla's rear wheel drive would probably require their AWD version.

Who the fuck spends $25k on gas in 7 years? Even at $4 / gallon in a car with mediocre mileage, that's like 22,000 miles / year. And you're also assuming that electricity is free.

[nickwm21]

And you're also assuming that electricity is free.

Seems to be a common misconception with tesla owners.

[uglymoney]

Seems to be a common misconception with tesla owners.

Most of them are luxury car buyers and don't care. Folks that are practical buyer or need the numbers to add up purchase a Prius.

And as far as mileage Prius V vs Outback I think it is a good conversation but as stated above you can't compare numbers from two different people over the internet. Clearly though a Prius with a huge box on the roof driving on the highway at 70+ mph is giving up much of its advantage over a car like the Outback. Still our box comes off in 2 minutes and goes on the wall and you can see our real calculated fuelly numbers in the link I posted above and the average mpg of our Prius is pretty darn impressive to me as a first time hybrid owner.

[sethschmautz]

While there are many reasons to purchase electric or hybrid, I'm curious if anybody has actually run the numbers on the a hybrid vs standard gasoline? When my wife and I were in the market a few years ago I put together a spreadsheet that allowed me to calculate break even point. I was looking mainly at the Honda Civic vs. Civic hybrid at the time...and my memory is that it would take approx 15 years before we would have hit the break even point with gas at $4/gallon. If gas is cheaper, it would take longer to break even. Has anybody run the numbers and found something different?

Seth

[GeezerSteve]

No, I didn't run the numbers. I bought a hybrid because regenerative braking is really cool technology. Mild hybrid, i.e., generator/motor on flywheel of otherwise conventional engine/drivetrain, should not add all that much to the price of the drivetrain, and I expect the prices to come down. Prius hybrid system is a completely different animal.

When you run the numbers, consider the price of brake pads and brake jobs. A thoughtfully driven hybrid might go 100,000 miles without needing brake pads.