Police Behaving Badly

[TBS]

^^^This presentation is plagiarized from those of Lt Col Dave Grossman, a retired West Point Psychologist. Grossman is considered the expert on how to train sane humans to overcome their aversion to killing other humans in service to their country.

He also did a lot of research on the implications of returning these killers to society, as well as how society inadvertently trains young white boys to become mass shooters.

After retiring from the US Army, he began a second career teaching police officers the same techniques for killing without remorse developed by the military.

Thing is, the “warrior” mindset of soldiers needs to be different than the “guardian” mindset of police.

His training program has fallen out of favor in recent years

[tetzen]

He also did a lot of research on the implications of returning these killers to society, as well as how society inadvertently trains young white boys to become mass shooters.

I've never heard this part about his research. Where has that come up at?

[Dantheman]

Thing is, the “warrior” mindset of soldiers needs to be different than the “guardian” mindset of police.

"Soldiering and policing, they ain't the same thing."

[zion zig zag]

"Soldiering and policing, they ain't the same thing."

So good, so relevant.

[TBS]

I've never heard this part about his research. Where has that come up at?

The part about returning soldiers to polite society is covered in “On Killing”

The part about training kids to become mass shooters is covered here

There’s a lot of controversy about the conclusions here.

[riser4]

Make Love, not war.

[old goat]

A lot of people who have studied the issue feel that while soldiers can certainly be trained to kill people, many if not most never overcome the guilt, and that that, not being shot at or having friends killed, is a major cause of PTSD, although the person may never identify it as the source.

[vt_ski]

https://www.kut.org/post/austin-poli...thousands-more

wtf.

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[tetzen]

There’s a lot of controversy about the conclusions here.

Sounds about right. I'm gonna hazard a guess that there's a lot of correlation without causation scenarios in that book.

[mtnjam]

https://www.kut.org/post/austin-poli...thousands-more

wtf.

The thin blue line ain't gonna help those idiots hold a shotgun stock properly. Looks like this piggy was trained how to hold a weapon in the ghetto.

[Choss Jonger, Sr.]

https://kdvr.com/news/nationalworld-...ts-childs-dog/


Shootin' dogs and stuff. Just regular police things.

[ICantLogIn]

Fuck, the cops killed Dave on Sunday night. Dave is a bit strange and probably mental health issues.

Heres Dave doing what he did.
https://www.reverbnation.com/daviddonovan



Oh yeah and fuck the Police.

[mtuhockey33]

Fuck, the cops killed Dave on Sunday night. Dave is a bit strange and probably mental health issues.

Heres Dave doing what he did.
https://www.reverbnation.com/daviddonovan



Oh yeah and fuck the Police.

hey man, I’m sorry for your loss...

from reading the story it sounds like it was more of a mental health issue rather than a police issue... with that being said, the dude attacked people with a knife and police were called, a taser didn’t work in subduing him.... it was a shitty outcome.

all this shows is there needs to be another route for subduing someone under a mental health issue other than the police. They’re not mentally trained (or trained at all) on how to deal with those issues.

yeah the police suck, but they didn’t have to call the police and the dude didn’t have to attack people with a knife.

it’s a shit situation that ended in the loss of a life but to solely blame it on the police shows your ignorance.

[old goat]

hey man, I’m sorry for your loss...

from reading the story it sounds like it was more of a mental health issue rather than a police issue... with that being said, the dude attacked people with a knife and police were called, a taser didn’t work in subduing him.... it was a shitty outcome.

all this shows is there needs to be another route for subduing someone under a mental health issue other than the police. They’re not mentally trained (or trained at all) on how to deal with those issues.

yeah the police suck, but they didn’t have to call the police and the dude didn’t have to attack people with a knife.

it’s a shit situation that ended in the loss of a life but to solely blame it on the police shows your ignorance.

If nerd scientists can subdue dangerous wild animals without killing them in order to draw their blood, put collars on them and all that, surely the cops can figure out how to do it with much less dangerous human beings.

[PB]

Yabbut ....... nerd scientists don't have to worry about traumatized progeny and local forrest denizens making embarrassing videos, all of which mandates deadly force.

[zion zig zag]

If nerd scientists can subdue dangerous wild animals without killing them in order to draw their blood, put collars on them and all that, surely the cops can figure out how to do it with much less dangerous human beings.

Surely you see the differences in the situations and can think of a handful of reasons that that wouldn't work?

[Benny Profane]

Long read.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates...ster-shooting/

[MTT]

I came across this last night.

This cop is gonna hang. They just don't seem to get it.

We could have an argument about should the police be allowed to shoot you is you try to get away? Right now the answer is no.

In this video was not in Danger. But still shoots the driver and passenger multiple times, because they drove towards him sort of.

Police behaving badly
https://youtu.be/uJJ-4jCmLMQ

[cantspin]

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100...-protests.html
It’s NYT so ACAB oriented but sheesh that’s not cool


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[neufox47]

https://kdvr.com/news/nationalworld-...ts-childs-dog/


Shootin' dogs and stuff. Just regular police things.

I think about that shit all the time. Police come to a dogs house and kill it for barking at them all the time. Tens of thousands of pets every year and almost never any recourse against the cops. Even if there is it’s sorry, here’s $300 for your pet.

[powdrhound]

When cops fail to lower the temperature, mentally ill can wind up dead
BY GARTH STAPLEY| GSTAPLEY@MODBEE.COM
11/20/2020
We understand that cops, to keep us safe, sometimes must use deadly force. It’s when they don’t need to, but do, that’s troubling.

I’m not just talking about George Floyd, although his unprovoked death in May under the knee of a Minneapolis policeman touched off protests across the United States, including Modesto and Oakdale.

I’m talking about officers in this area who have killed people minding their own business.

It happened in late September, when Stanislaus County deputies confronted Eloy Gonzalez, a homeless man who refused to come out from behind bushes at a Modesto industrial building whose alarm had been tripped just before 5 a.m. Gonzalez seemed harmless enough, but the deputies weren’t about to let his senseless defiance go. When they sicced a K-9 on him, Gonzalez grabbed a hatchet and the officers opened fire, killing him. Stanislaus District Attorney Birgit Fladager will decide, perhaps in weeks or months, if that was a “righteous shoot.” I’m guessing she’ll say it was, because she always has, in the 14 years she has sat in judgment of cops who kill people.

OPINION
While awaiting that announcement, I think about others who might still be alive if officers had chosen compassion rather than lethal force.

Nearly 12 years ago, as a Modesto Bee reporter, I wrote about a guy with a samurai sword who had the extreme misfortune of being spotted by a Modesto fire battalion chief responding to an unrelated emergency at the DoubleTree downtown. The battalion chief suggested police check out the guy with the sword — a perfectly reasonable and responsible thought, except that a policewoman shot him dead.

Fladager deemed it a justified shooting. Richard Robles Jr. had responded to the cop’s inquiry by advancing toward her.

I understand the reasoning. But it bugged me, because Robles had threatened no one until approached. The sword stayed in its scabbard while firefighters went in and out the hotel. If left alone, he might have lived.

The 2017 death of Evin Olsen Yadegar is another tragic example. She was having a crisis while leading officers on a slow-speed chase before a Stanislaus deputy shot and killed her in Ripon. His voluntary manslaughter trial should be scheduled in January in San Joaquin County, while her survivors accepted a civil settlement of $7 million because that shoot was not righteous.

The three deaths I cite share a common element: mental illness. None were in their right minds when they were killed.

Mentally ill slain in the Valley

And they have lots of company.

In May, Tuolumne County deputies shot and killed Richard Councilman, a Jamestown man whose daughter said he was mentally ill. In 2012, David Mendez repeatedly stabbed himself in the neck before moving toward a Modesto police detective who fatally shot him, and a Stanislaus deputy in Keyes killed Jorge Ramirez, whose family said he was depressed.

In 2011, Ricky Miranda escaped from a mental facility in northeast Modesto, sliced his neck with broken glass and held pruning shears when an off-duty CHP officer shot and killed him. In 2009, Elizabeth Catherine Cropp, who had been hospitalized dozens of times for paranoid schizophrenia, cut herself with a meat cleaver while walking onto a Modesto elementary school campus when police shot and killed her.

That’s only part of a list that goes on and on.

Sometimes the victim seeks suicide by cop. Such seemed the case when former Oakdale Police Chief Marty West, smeared with his own blood, came at Fresno police responding to his mental crisis as they shot and killed him in November 2018, another story that shook me, other reporters and local people he had loved and served.

Something is wrong when officers who are supposed to protect people end up killing them instead.

I’ve had conversations about this with Stanislaus Sheriff Jeff Dirkse, who reminds me it’s not fair to judge a cop for a split-second decision made under unbelievable stress.

“It’s a false expectation that a cop on the street at 4 a.m. can diagnose someone accurately with a mental illness and respond in a manner that allows every other member of the community to simply go on with life,” the sheriff told me.

Dirkse, by the way, expects any day to release body camera footage of his deputies shooting 79-year-old Seo Myong Yang, a licensed doctor, as he drove a tractor toward them at his Denair home on Nov. 8. He survived.

I want to believe that every officer is doing her or his best. When dealing with mental illness, there are no easy answers.

Punishing disobedience with death

If a cop orders sane people to do something, we do it. We know they’re armed and endowed with authority. We know we could pay a heavy price if we disobey.

But we don’t know what goes through the minds of those whose minds may not be all there.

In many such cases, disobedience should not be punished with death.

Joe Biden may be the latest to suggest that we “lower the temperature,” seeking calm instead of agitation. It’s good advice in most circumstances, including confrontation with the mentally ill.

Eloy Gonzalez, Evin Yadegar and Richard Robles might be alive today if officers had chosen to the lower the temperature. In each case, officers instead escalated the tension, demanding that mentally ill people react like sane people, and death ensued.

We need to find a better way.

When cops fail to lower the temperature, mentally ill can wind up dead https://www.modbee.com/opinion/garth...247274024.html

edit: still trying to figure out how this posting stuff works...

[Cono Este]

If nerd scientists can subdue dangerous wild animals without killing them in order to draw their blood, put collars on them and all that, surely the cops can figure out how to do it with much less dangerous human beings.

Darting them in the wild, or in a zoo, is a bit different than someone waving a knife around.

I totally agree too many of these mental health calls are treated inhumanly. But if I told you we’d only tazer them, someone would complain about that.


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[glademaster]

Here's an eye opener for you.

https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts...o-special-duty

[Sharon Needles]

Darting them in the wild, or in a zoo, is a bit different than someone waving a knife around.

I totally agree too many of these mental health calls are treated inhumanly. But if I told you we’d only tazer them, someone would complain about that.


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I’m not sure there is much difference between shooting someone with a dart vs. a 9mm or .223 other than the non-lethal nature of the former

[tetzen]

Here's an eye opener for you.

https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts...o-special-duty

I really enjoyed that podcast episode. It drives home the point that the motto "To Protect and Serve" is a farce that is believed by too much of the public. The cops have no duty to protect the public and can willfully ignore dangers to other citizens right in front of them, save for a few very limited situations (basically where they already arrested a person).

BLM folks realize this, but the broader public doesn't realize this and thinks cops are always there to protect them. They don't though, they're just there to protect the state's power and that's essentially all. You're more likely to be protected by a random good Samaritan, than your local police force.