K Chute Slide

[Lone Star]

Say... if you are in a car accident, the ambulance will be sure not to respond unless someone from your vehicle calls 911, nevermind if you are slumped over the steering wheel.

non-sequitur and irrelevant; poor analogy

There's a lot of folks who choose to recreate in public lands and wilderness in part so they can rely on their own decisions and actions. There's no expectation-and often, no desire- to have that "safety leash" that we're used to having in more urban locales.

[PNWbrit]

I take offense at assholes like yourself, that think they need to help when help is unwanted. Mind your own business and I'll mind mine. You guys fucked up, jumped the gun, and expect somebody to be thankful of your efforts? Keep up the good work wannabe hero man. I'm sure it makes you feel cool. Just realize that there are people out there that have spent a lifetime developing skills and don't expect or need the help from people who have infinitely less experience and skill. There is not one person on our local S&R that could ski 1 day in the areas we frequent so I'm 100% reliant on the people in my party. I'm sorry you are offended by my attitude, but I just want to be left the fuck alone.

What an asshole!

Perhaps you should also call your local fire department and tell them unless you've phoned and asked for help they should let your house burn down if they ever see it on fire.

[puke]

If the Summit Cty. District Attorney tries to pin the bill for the helicopter on us, it's the Copper Mtn. ski patrol I'm going have to go after for not relaying accurate information to SAR teams.

Not a fan lawsuits or suits in general, but perhaps you sue CMSP for the emotional duress they have caused you. It should be fairly easy to demonstrate.

[cmsummit]

An article in the Summit Daily News with information given by my brother:

Summit Daily News

[Mountain Freak]

I wonder why they don't care if you ski in the back country in any of the national forests, but if you ski in the BC by a resort it's a fine... I don't get it.

[robokill1981]

but perhaps you sue CMSP for the emotional duress they have caused you. It should be fairly easy to demonstrate.

I think the thread has to hit 7 pages before you can claim that.

[summit]

A more clear understanding of events:

Group calls CMSP (GOOD), says they were OK after triggering ONE slide (they aren't aware of the second, oops).

CMSP uses binoculars or a telescope to investigate, notices a SECOND slide, tracks in no tracks out. (THIS IS THE KEY TO THE CALLOUT)

Group calls CMSP again to say they were out when they weren't (BAD) (but this message is supposedly not passed along to those making the decisions. (VERY BAD!))

EDIT: SOMEONE CALLS BRECK PATROL STATING THERE ARE THREE PEOPLE BURIED. (per CAIC)

CMSP assumes a second group present and buried or the first group caught in the second slide because the second call was not passed. Because of this and/or for some reason I don't know, CMSP contacts Summit County Communications Center to trigger a multiagency avalanche rapid response.

Lifeguard 2 launched per FFLARD, picks up a snow tech and a dog team, investigates slide.
SCSO arrives at the Corn Lot.
SCRG arrives at the Corn Lot.
BSP contacted.

Group makes third call to CMSP saying they are out when they were not (BAD), this message, however, was passed along to SAR.

SCRG, confused, continues preparations with BSP to mitigate hangfire danger so that teams can be put in the field, while using Lifeguard 2 to look for tracks out.

Lifeguard 2 spots the group in the trees, SAR mission stood down.

non-sequitur and irrelevant; poor analogy

There's a lot of folks who choose to recreate in public lands and wilderness in part so they can rely on their own decisions and actions. There's no expectation-and often, no desire- to have that "safety leash" that we're used to having in more urban locales.

Riding ski lifts, ducking a ski area boundry rope to ski SKY chutes on the backside of Breckenridge to ski down to a Copper Mountain parking lot in full view of the resort and Interstate 70. This doesn't qualify as a wilderness escape. This was lift served out of bounds skiing.

I think it was pretty clear cmsummit and friends was going for the good turns (SKY chutes are fun skiing!). If he wanted to get away from society in full he probably would have chosen a real deep wilderness areas like those you frequent in the summer or at least a trip up into the Gore Range.

I think that is a relevant analogy.

You and I have discussed this before. You also know how strongly I hate the provision in the CSSA that allows LEO to charge people for cutting a rope from leased public land to unleased public land. It's just dumb. It's OUR land damnit!

I take offense at assholes like yourself, that think they need to help when help is unwanted. Mind your own business and I'll mind mine. You guys fucked up, jumped the gun, and expect somebody to be thankful of your efforts? Keep up the good work wannabe hero man. I'm sure it makes you feel cool. Just realize that there are people out there that have spent a lifetime developing skills and don't expect or need the help from people who have infinitely less experience and skill. There is not one person on our local S&R that could ski 1 day in the areas we frequent so I'm 100% reliant on the people in my party. I'm sorry you are offended by my attitude, but I just want to be left the fuck alone.

I didn't go on this mission. I was 50 miles away. I listened to the radio traffic. Feel free to keep assuming that is where my position on this is coming from.

How is SAR supposed to know whether there was anyone up there that fits your elite little description of yourself?
You sound like one of the elitist types who wishes there was no SAR at all as though it would keep "undesirables" out of the BC.

Any other SAR team would have reacted similarly to the confusing information in the fashion it was available from Copper Mountain. It was the right thing to do. It was standard operating procedure given the situation. Blaming SAR for this situation is ludicrous.

You may have a low opinion about your local SAR people. They aren't here and I don't really care. I guarantee you I know a few people on SAR capable of skiing down anything you are capapable of skiing down and doing it with more grace and less dick waving. Oh wait... that doesn't matter one bit and has no bearing on the situation except for your ego! I suggest you check your massive ego and attitude. You should get off your high horse and listen to what cmsummit is saying.

[Ireallyliketoski2]

I wonder why they don't care if you ski in the back country in any of the national forests, but if you ski in the BC by a resort it's a fine... I don't get it.

It's not illegal to ski the backcountry by resorts provided you leave through the access gates. Those are the rules, I didn't write em, play it as it lies.

[summit]

It's not illegal to ski the backcountry by resorts provided you leave through the access gates. Those are the rules, I didn't write em, play it as it lies.

The rules are still stupid and we don't have to like them, just to understand the consequences should we break the rules stupid as they are. It's our public land. Free the BC.

[This Thread Now Sucks]

[powstash]

hmmm, I checked in on page one and then page 5. Typical maggot thread.

Story is relayed ---> people chime in ----> one maggot disagrees, vehemnently ---> pissing match starts ----> one maggot storms off with a F*%& You -----> peace is restored by clearer minds -----> thread dies a nice death

next

[StroupSkier]

Why does the fact that the party entered the area by ducking a rope have no bearing on whether or not they would be arrested, fined or would have to pay for the flight time of the heli?

IMHO, the gates at Breck are positioned so that patrol can get an idea if someone is verturing outside the area. All of the gates I am aware of are either near a patrol station, or require a skin to reach the top of the Ten Mile Range, thus insuring the breck patrol can see them.

For instance, given the report, if CMSP sees two slides, and three tracks going into one of them. They call over to BRSP, find out that only three people have left the boundary, those three people have called in safe, so nothing is done. However by ducking the rope, BRSP has no idea how many people are back there, and cannot respond.

Given the fact there were two slides, and the phone message from cmsummits crew only described what sounded to CMSP like the one with no tracks, CMSP did the right thing by calling SAR. I know I would be pretty pissed off if I was in a group with people buried and SAR turned away because another groups said they were the only ones back there and were OK. I would never count on SAR for help, but you never know what can happen.

This is a unique situation where multiple parties made some mistakes and a lot can be learned by the miscomunications made. Unfortunately, what will probably happen is a lot of finger pointing and dick waving. So much could be learned from this situation if people were willing to put their pride and egos behind them and discuss the situation. I commend cmsummit for posting on the board about his mistake and hope that the other parties involved are willing to do the same.

Dirk, you may may want to be left alone, however most people I think would not, and given that SAR would not know the feelings of the people on the mountain, they are obligated to respond. Don't get mad just because you get a little extra attention.

On another note, in one of the related articles from the Summit Daily, it sure didn't take long for this to morph into an anti-summit lift article:
http://summitdaily.com/article/20050406/NEWS/50406008

[Buster Highmen]

It's the goddamn stunt pickle teams. Every year they ruin the parade, upstaging the shopping basket drill teams and the casket sex squads with their little green nubblies sprouting out everywhere. They've gone beyond kosher, beyond the safe amounts of garlic and dill to new levels that would squelch a politician or choke a goat.
I mean, where are canned good going these days? It's the fault of fast food, microwaves and stress oriented bagel nosheries that would have been run out of the kibbutz with reverse swatstikas.

[Dirk Diggler]

This thread is done. I could care less what people think of my views or attitudes toward this subject. Call me a dick waver if you want even though I've never so much as posted a trip report on this board, I don't care. You provoked me and I honestly stated that the level skill of most S&R is below that of the people I travel in the mountains with. It is fact whether you like it or not. It was not meant to be elitist. The picture B11's painted is one I've seen many times.

How about a quick example:
Jan 1998 ( Summit, you weren't around back then, eh?), snomobiler goes missing for three days up on Buffalo Pass. Every S&R member in the area out on mission and nothing. The local bc skiers made suggestions and were ignored. After the third night they sucked up their pride and got help from a local bc skiier group who located the missing party in a matter of hours. Why didn't they go into that canyon to begin with? Lack of skill and knowledge. This is just one example I have. If you want more, let me know.

Also forgot to mention how S&R tried to save us while night skiing a month or so ago. They were out looking for some tourists, but had to let us know that they thought we were crazy for enjoying some nice moonlit turns. Just because they wouldn't/couldn't do it personally, does not mean others aren't comfortable with it. But hey it sure made that guy feel good to act all official and shit. All I'm asking for is to be left alone. Why is this a problem for you?

[Dirk Diggler]

JP,
Was not Loveland Pass.

[summit]

Lou, I've got night skiing on the pass before. It's fun. It's beautiful.
I know several SAR types that snowmobile VP on full moons.
Sorry if the group in your area is uptight, you need to chill and stop ragging on SAR as though they are good for nothing and shoudl be eliminated. You are the one who started the superiority vein. SAR makes mistakes. Eveyone does, but if you are so damned good and could do it better, maybe you ought to go teach your local SAR a thing of two.

if your talking about the S&R incident up on loveland pass last month, they tried to save us too. full moon riding is soooo dangerous. apparently some gaper got lost under the full moon and drunkly ended up at keystone 6 hours later. we heard from the kids friends that they were doing drunkin ridge hikes and they lost him around mid-night. S&R hadn't done a damn thing so we offered to take a look for the kid while we were doing early morning laps. we got brushed off with an official attitude that we would be of no help. that left a negative impression of S&R with me

I doubt Lou would "lower" himself to ski in such "mudane" terrain.

I was not at this call. Sorry if you felt brushed off. There are certain liability issues as far as SAR including Joe Public in the search effort. If your approach is "I'd like to help tell me what to do." You are going to get brushed off. If your approach is "I'm going skiing over there, I'll let you know if I happen to see something, BTW what was he wearing?" You will get a better response because there can be no construed liability (screw laywers). It also depends on the situation (which was mostly resolved at that point) and who is in command. After all they have no idea of your experience and training. You could be the almighty Lou or you could be a gaper from Texas.

I think your willingness to help is commendable.

SAR was out in the morning. The kid had gotten picked up as SAR was setting up command. SAR was checking the pullouts and A-Basin (to see if they were there). It became rapidly apparent that the party had been picked up. SAR remained onscene relaxed for a good while until this could be confirmed in person. Perhaps that is why you thought they weren't doing much (most of the activity was going on elsewhere for most of the time). Most overdue skier/hiker searches around here end up being for not. That's the way it is. Thats the way most emergency calls are in all respects 90% BS. You go out because 10% of them turn out not to be BS.

Are there Safety-Bobs on SAR? Absolutely. There are safety bobs in ANY profession and safety professions naturally attract more than their share. It is the nature of the beast. A few of them get off on it. A few of them preach because when efforts are fruitless, it subcocniously lets a few people feel like they are at least accomplishing something. A few of them go into the rescue mindset of "we're here to rescue a gaper, I sure don't want to have to rescue any other gapers" and start assuming anyone they come across. In the end, it doesn't matter. They do their job. You don't have to listen to them. Personally, I hate the people who feel the need to tell everyone else what they should do. It drives me nuts! You shouldn't write off the entirety of SAR and all the good that they do because one guy gave you some guff. Most volunteer SAR members are easy going people looking to help others and give freely of themselves back to their community.

[Ireallyliketoski2]

The rules are still stupid and we don't have to like them, just to understand the consequences should we break the rules stupid as they are. It's our public land. Free the BC.

Plenty of free BC out there. If your riding lifts, that's not BC, that's lazy, and laziness should be punishable by fines!

[summit]

Plenty of free BC out there. If your riding lifts, that's not BC, that's lazy, and laziness should be punishable by fines!

Touche

I was speaking more in general terms. However, I find the principle of the issue extremely offensive (some corporation telling me I can't access public land).

[Dexter Rutecki]

A quick question: If SAR justified the search, after the 'OK' call, because there was a second, unreported slide with potential victims, then why call off the search when the party that had already called to say they didn't need help was located? How was seeing them visually different from their own report to not need SAR? Why did finding that group suddenly mean that the search they were supposedly conducting for another group could be called off?

[summit]

A quick question: If SAR justified the search, after the 'OK' call, because there was a second, unreported slide with potential victims, then why call off the search when the party that had already called to say they didn't need help was located? How was seeing them visually different from their own report to not need SAR? Why did finding that group suddenly mean that the search they were supposedly conducting for another group could be called off?

On their last pass in a close inspection, the helicopter spotted faint tracks past the second slide which quickly led them to find the group in the trees.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Summit, with all the 7-Mary Lifeguard 2 stand down roger that lingo, you're not helping the general consensus that SAR is a bunch of militaristic dorks, FYI.

[summit]

Summit, with all the 7-Mary Lifeguard 2 stand down roger that lingo, you're not helping the general consensus that SAR is a bunch of militaristic dorks, FYI.

LOL, that's what the helicopter calls itself. Lifeguard 2 is the Flight For Life helicopter that is based at Summit Medical Center during the day.

SCRG=Summit County Rescue Group
SCSO=Summit County Sherrif Office
Stand Down=Stop Responding, Go home.
Anything else unclear?

[Dirk Diggler]

Summit,
Good post. I didn't say there was no place for S&R. As long as it is requested, I'm all for it. All the talk about making these guys pay for helis, and $20K/hr rescue teams, even though they asked to handle the situation themselves just really bothers me and is what got me fired up in this thread. Obviously the Copper Patrol blew the relay of information from the party, so why can't the Sherriff, S&R guys, etc acknowledge this, give these guys some credit, and set the facts straight? The hazing these guys have taken in the news is ridiculous.

BTW, is it me or does every news report about an avalanche start with a sherriff saying its not legal to ski a perfectly legal backcountry area, followed by a S&R spokesman talking about "extreme" avalanche danger when its usually no higher than mod/cons? I've seen that on several occasions this year.

[lemon boy]

nahhh it is all clear. Just gay.

GAY = Gaper Acronym Yammering.

[summit]

DD, I would honestly be surprised if they did get stuck with the helicopter fees from Flight For Life. Many other instances this year, the helicopter was utilized and FFL or SAR ate the charges. I certainly dont think SAR would even consider charging them for the volunteer operation! I would be absolutely astounded if that were the case.

I certainly hope it will become clear about the communication breakdown that occoured because of ski patrol. I have already told cmsummit I will do what I can to try and clarify this with SAR's group leader and given some reccomendations on how he might be able to prove things to the sherriff so that could be taken into consideration should anyone try to stick cmsummit's group with the fees.

I honestly haven't paid much attention to the press on the issue because the press never gets it right. Reporters love to hear from whoever will make the biggest deal out of something. Those willing to do that usually have the most to gain from blowing up an incident. I would say the local papers are usually more diligant than the Denver retards who scream up I70 at 90mph in their sattelite uplink trucks so they can make the feed for the 6'oclock news... but then that isn't saying much.

Those that can't do, teach. Those that can't teach go to journalism school
We all know as dedicated skiers that trying to read any skiing article by the mainstream press is nothing but frustrating.