Photographers and shitty/entitled attitudes

[SUPERIOR]

As I go further down the rabbit hole of pro video and photography, I can honestly say the ratio of assholes to non-assholes is something like 70/30.

What causes this?

Do other "arts" have such a dickish makeup?

Have you ever asked a question to a photog or producer and gotten major rude 'tude for no reason?

Maybe I'm just expecting too much.

[spook]

As I go further down the rabbit hole of pro video and photography, I can honestly say the ratio of assholes to non-assholes is something like 70/30.

lawyers are like 95/5

[systemoverblow'd]

Here's the thing... these fields are filled with big personalities. And big personalities don't often mesh well together.

One thing I have learned over my career is managing people is almost as important as the art itself. If I'm sitting with a director for 12 hours working on a cut, if we don't get along it will be hell for both of us and the product will suffer.

I used to be a fucking hot head and thought my shit didn't stink. I actually lost work because of my attitude in the past.

Luckily, I learned to calm the fuck down and realize my opinion isn't the end all be all of the project. I've learned to ignore assholes, engage collaborators and roll my eyes behind everyones back after they leave my office. But I don't pipe up anymore with negativity. The quickest way to cease all collaboration is negativity and in the grand scheme no matter your role in the biz, we are all looking to get the same thing accomplished.

But yeah, a whole lot of "I'm the shit" attitude in this industry. It's kind of like bros from Alta.

[huckbucket]

^^
... and which pharmaceutical supplements help with that?

[systemoverblow'd]

the bitter experience pill.

[The AD]

Here's the thing... these fields are filled with big personalities.

Is "big personality" a euphemism for asshole?

[systemoverblow'd]

Is "big personality" a euphemism for asshole?

It can be. But mostly just very outspoken people that think their ideas are the only right ones was the way I meant it. Or they are unwilling to concede or compromise on "their art."

[Meathelmet]

Op might miss the point a tad. The percentage of assholes to any given population generally is about the same. But yes, if you start to look closer
at some high end professionals, especially in the "arts", the probability of one being a character shoots up rather radically.



The fallacy with the OPs observation might be the part photogs and "art". Bunching photogs under one umbrella is like bunching "men" or "athletes" under one.
There is just such a rainbow of peeps being "photogs". Hell, if you have a camera you are considered one. No matter if you do sports for living, take landscapes
as a part time job or shoot fashion as a big time hotshot. Nowadays half of the population seems to be one when the actual amount, people making a living and
long time career are far and between. Especially when it comes to Art photography. And I am not saying "art" but Art photography, people that make their living
mainly by selling prints classified as art, doing books, exhibiting. They are rarer than virgins in a whorehouse.

What I have personally observed is that there seem to be disproportionate amount of "assholes" in the semi-pro industry and cliques like camera clubs. They
usually are male orientated societies where the usual male grievances get amplified. Tech masturbators, besserwissers and penis compensators are abound.

Fashion photography is the other. As much as I personally love that genre, the general atmosphere is about the unhealthiest in the world. The amount of posers,
dilettantes, pervs, moneygrubbers and general asshats is astounding. To survive in that kind of environment takes quite a special breed. Preferably one that preferably
has a bit all of those forementioned qualities.

In art photography ( and I dont mean those geezers shooting "tastefull nudes" in their garage) the amount of "assholes" is high as well. Why?
Well most of the peeps are wound up like springs for obvious reasons. They are extremly passionate and high strung individuals that work with really intimate,
difficult topics and subjects and in general they tend to be...fucked up.
Are they assholes in general...not that more than the general population but they sure as hell might easily come across like ones.

I think in general the more seasoned and established you are, the calmer one tends to be. The top tier geezers I have met, be it they war photogs, fashion or
artists have almost invariably been really cool peeps. Of course there are the asshats as well, but in general cool cats. They know who they are, they know
they dont have to have to prove themselves. But piss them off...


As you said, you are heading down the rabbit hole. The Industry (if we talk about the media industry in general) is relatively old fashioned in that sense that
you have a lot of fields where you still do things the Mentor way. The master and apprentice way.
Like, you get in the field, you be an assistant for few years, you get to know people, you get contacts, you do more assisting etc.
When a person enters that kind of environment, you have to tread carefully.
If you suddenly pop in kicking the doors you will get treated like a fucking douche, because you probably are one of the weekly hotshots dropping by on their way out.
Mouth off and make a fuzz about yourself, you better be a fucking prodigy. And even if you are, you might find the doors are closed in front of you. And behind you.
Like System, I have eaten a bitter pill or two in my lifetime. But the world you are entering is a bloody interesting one, be it one the commercial or art side.
It just might not be for everyone.

Here's the thing... these fields are filled with big personalities. And big personalities don't often mesh well together.

One thing I have learned over my career is managing people is almost as important as the art itself. If I'm sitting with a director for 12 hours working on a cut, if we don't get along it will be hell for both of us and the product will suffer.

I used to be a fucking hot head and thought my shit didn't stink. I actually lost work because of my attitude in the past.

Luckily, I learned to calm the fuck down and realize my opinion isn't the end all be all of the project. I've learned to ignore assholes, engage collaborators and roll my eyes behind everyones back after they leave my office. But I don't pipe up anymore with negativity. The quickest way to cease all collaboration is negativity and in the grand scheme no matter your role in the biz, we are all looking to get the same thing accomplished.

But yeah, a whole lot of "I'm the shit" attitude in this industry. It's kind of like bros from Alta.

I think Systems post nails it, especially in the perspective of the commercial field.
And even more awesome is to see the TGR resident hothead have finally matured!!

[Hott Butt Mud]

What about that guy Truth? He seemed like a real dickhead.

[systemoverblow'd]

I think Systems post nails it, especially in the perspective of the commercial field.
And even more awesome is to see the TGR resident hothead have finally matured!!

You watch your goddamn mouth. I can still flip the switch to total douche mobile on cue, so watch it.

[skifishbum]

i always chuckle at the intellectual property thing
sure people stealing anything and trying to profit sucks
but this whole idea that others need to subscribe to your standards or aren't free to do whatever the fuck they choose with their "intellectual property"
is funny
that and people who watermark crap thinking someone would claim or want it.

[southern_expat]

Meh, don't take it personal.
When I am working I am usually so immersed in what I am doing, John Q Public usually just gets in my way & pisses me off.

But as to what SysBlow was saying...it is a VERY ego driven industry & unfortunately lots in it think if they don't act like they are the shit, others wont think they are.
I prefer to let my work speak for me.

[Gunder]

I've been doing this for quite a while now, and I can honestly say most of the "established" guys are quite cool and easy to work with. When I was working as a photo editor, I ran across several bad attitudes and that was always from the guys that where trying to get there foot in the door, which always blew my mind. Photography is like anything else. Attitude is everything. That being said, nothing pisses me off more than guys starting to get into the field and have the attitude of wanting everything for nothing. If someone is starting out, I am happy to help them out, but it should be a two way street, with more of a conversational dialog VS. tell me how to do your job, so I can do it for a third less since I am living at home with mommy and daddy.

[Fuzz]

I am happy to help them out, but it should be a two way street, with more of a conversational dialog VS. tell me how to do your job.

I'm very interested to hear more about this part, Grant. What would you consider to be a two-way street or a conversational dialog? What should the amateur bring to the table to make it worth your time?

Reason for my question is that I've been interested in meeting up with pro photographers to go shooting. Not to take a formal lesson from them, but to go simply shoot together, see them in action, talk about elements of shooting and photography, etc. But most pros are not not willing to do that. It's usually a "purchase my workshop/tour and I'll teach you" approach. Which I can obviously understand, as they need to make money (and it's hard in these days where many people give away their photographs for free/cheap). But it does become a more stand-offish business transaction, rather than a long-term master-apprentice/partnership. I'm not looking for a one-off class/workshop where the teacher teaches, but rather a two-way street like you said, where I can bounce my ideas off the pro and ask questions about his/her ideas ("I'm thinking of shooting this scene in this way because of X, Y, and Z-- what do you think?").

Or am I completely missing the boat here and expecting too much?

[grskier]

I'm very interested to hear more about this part, Grant. What would you consider to be a two-way street or a conversational dialog? What should the amateur bring to the table to make it worth your time?

Reason for my question is that I've been interested in meeting up with pro photographers to go shooting. Not to take a formal lesson from them, but to go simply shoot together, see them in action, talk about elements of shooting and photography, etc. But most pros are not not willing to do that. It's usually a "purchase my workshop/tour and I'll teach you" approach. Which I can obviously understand, as they need to make money (and it's hard in these days where many people give away their photographs for free/cheap). But it does become a more stand-offish business transaction, rather than a long-term master-apprentice/partnership. I'm not looking for a one-off class/workshop where the teacher teaches, but rather a two-way street like you said, where I can bounce my ideas off the pro and ask questions about his/her ideas ("I'm thinking of shooting this scene in this way because of X, Y, and Z-- what do you think?").

Or am I completely missing the boat here and expecting too much?

For only $7.99 I'll let you listen to my opinion.

For another $85 I'll tell you why I was right.

[Gunder]

Fuzz,

No one is going to want to take a new photographer out, and basically teach them how to take photos, or how to make decisions in regards to how to shoot a subject. Thats what classes and clinics are for. Whereas a dialog about a technical aspect of photography, or its business, etc is something that is totally different and is a place with both parties can bring something to the table. Photography is about creating your own creative process, not copying what works for someone else, and I think thats what a lot of people forget about. Most of the people trying to break into it seem to be looking for a turnkey solution to their problems, and no one is going to provide that.

[Fuzz]

No one is going to want to take a new photographer out, and basically teach them how to take photos, or how to make decisions in regards to how to shoot a subject.

I get that. I didn't think I was a new photographer and needed lessons about how to take photos or make decisions, but perhaps from the pros' perspective, I am.

Whereas a dialog about a technical aspect of photography, or its business, etc is something that is totally different and is a place with both parties can bring something to the table. Photography is about creating your own creative process, not copying what works for someone else, and I think thats what a lot of people forget about. Most of the people trying to break into it seem to be looking for a turnkey solution to their problems, and no one is going to provide that.

Maybe that's the difference. I feel like there's only so much technical stuff I can talk about. It's the non-technical stuff, the "artistic" stuff that interests me more and helps me improve. I personally don't think talking/learning about someone else's creative process = copying, but I can see many people taking it that way. Maybe I'd change my tune if I start making a full-time living off my pictures.

[mtcham]

Fuzz-maybe as a newby you could crank up your astro photography setup again and give workshops in NZ. Might be a good niche-I'd be your first student as I was, and still am blown away by those images!

[Fuzz]

Fuzz-maybe as a newby you could crank up your astro photography setup again and give workshops in NZ. Might be a good niche-I'd be your first student as I was, and still am blown away by those images!

Thanks for the kind words, but the number of amazing astrophotographers down here is mind-blowing. I think it has to do with the low light pollution in general + the great view of the Milky Way from these southern latitudes.

Two of my favourites that I've found so far:
Mikey Mackinven
Mark Gee

There's a whole host of other very talented ones as well.

[deliberate]

Good pro photographers seem to at least think about what a viewer without any context will see in a picture. It tells a story a little bit deeper than here's some dude I don't know on a bike riding a trial at some place I dont know.

There are a lot of bad pro photographers that require a crutch of a star subject to get their photos noticed. To add a bit of meaning to the shot.

I've seen landscapes before. A picture of a mountain does fuck all.

You can capture an instant in time. But is it timeless? Will mankind never see it again? That is an important photo.

Put some words on it if you have to. Like "first ascent". That tells a story. Or a photo of a valley before some mine takes over and destroys it. Those instants in time will never be seen again.

[Meathelmet]

Fuzz,

No one is going to want to take a new photographer out, and basically teach them how to take photos, or how to make decisions in regards to how to shoot a subject. Thats what classes and clinics are for. Whereas a dialog about a technical aspect of photography, or its business, etc is something that is totally different and is a place with both parties can bring something to the table. Photography is about creating your own creative process, not copying what works for someone else, and I think thats what a lot of people forget about. Most of the people trying to break into it seem to be looking for a turnkey solution to their problems, and no one is going to provide that.

This.



In most, if not all fields of photography it would inconceivable for a pro to take a tag along with them. Imagine semi pros doing a landscape,
family portrait or some nudes and you would have the 187cm ghost stumbling around taking his own shots and "stealing the ideas".
Most of the time when a photog goes out to do something he has a relatively clear Idea what he is doing. Some of the Ideas might have taken
a lot of thought and consideration and having one around and the thought of that someone stealing that Idea might be a too much for most of people.
Imagine that you were some aspiring hunter and you would approach the local Davy Crockett and ask for a tag along, wishing that you
would get that Big Buck in front of that geezer. That would not probably go down that well?

And in the commercial world, say some fashion set with 10-15 people, all running on fumes, imagine you would have a fuckwit in the set dicking around
with a camera and creating a havoc. You know, hunting for that Big Buck. Treading in that kind of setting, with assistants that know you better
than your wife (like what hour you take a shit after that extra 4th cup of black coffee) is like walking on landmines. No one wants a single
distraction there. Even standing silently in the darkened corner can be that distracting that you get shooshed of the set.
It takes time to get into that world and the best way is assisting. Usually for free for a extended period of time and then if you are lucky,
and happen to prove yourself indispensable you might get paid. The probability for that gets much higher if you can somehow make
yourself matter. Like know some novel tech (lighting, rigging, postproduction, backup systems) or you just happen to be a person that people
relax around.

And this is actually crucial.

I had the pleasure to work with one assistant that was just fucking amazing to have around.
Cool, composed, got around people no matter what sex, class or creed they were from. Basically never had to tell him anything, after we got the
initial game plan sorted he would be like a ghost around the set fixing things before they ever came an issue. He just read people really well
and didnt make a fuzz of himself. At the moment he is making a carreer in somewhere in the far east, doing fine.

Assisting can be absolutely fucking horrible grudgefest or the dream job, depending on the photog you happen to chose and how you perform.
You can learn insane amount of stuff just looking how people light, how they interact with people or how they manage the business.
You know, just soaking in stuff. Of course if you end up with some person with whom you chemistry just dont work...it can be hell.
Absolute hell.

If one does not have the possibility of getting an assistant position (or is not interested in one) then a really good option is to get around
some "shooting clubs". Depending of your own interests it might be the local sierra club taking landscapes or some high school camera club
but you can get insane amount of good stuff out of your peers, likeminded peeps that just love to shoot and talk crap afterwards.
Especially if you happen to get a group where you can critique each other on a peer level, without any powerplays..that is about the most
important thing for a photographer. You get to listen what other people think and see in your own images and you get to verbalize what
you like or dont like in other peoples images.
And you get to receive critique.
Which is about the most horrible and beneficial thing in the world.


Edit: Been reading my posts and I notice that I might come across as a pompus douche. It is not my intention, trust me.. It is just weird
to start to verbalize and write about stuff that I have been doing for living for the last 20 years, for the first time ever.
And to be back in school, among peers that are absolutely brilliant, knowing that I will have to work my ass off to meet their level,
let alone exceed it. Terrifying.

And I fucking love it.

If you have interest in it just as a hobby. Do it. If you have interest in it as extra income, do it. If you want to make it you life. Think twice.
Or.





Signed : Pompous Fuck