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Thread: 14/?? The OFFICIAL Tahoe Thread

  1. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_big_lepowski View Post
    Thank god I will never have to leave alaska so this isn't much of an issuer for me
    Must be nice to have all that space with such few people.

    Must make management of public lands substantially different than California too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  2. #1002
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    It's actually a really big issue in Juneau.
    I didn't believe in reincarnation when I was your age either.

  3. #1003
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    Light ranger what is it about sleds a the few areas they are allowed that bothers you? As someone who enjoys both touring and sled touring I don't understand why people are upset by a little noise. Most areas that are good for sledding are boring for skiing and most areas in Tahoe that are good for skiing would be extremely difficult to sled. If someone chooses to use a sled to access terrain that's a hassle to access by foot it is their choice. Why fight them because you choose to do things differently. It's funny how bigoted the environmentalist are when it comes to things they don't agree with. Yet if you were to look at their whole environmental envelope of those types they are usually the ones with several houses, multiple vehicles, who drive several hours each weekend to backcounty ski "sustainably". Im pretty sure the 3 or 4 tanks of gas I put in my sled annually is far less of an environmental impact than heating a mostly empty second home or driving 6 hours every weekend for 4 months.

  4. #1004
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    I haven't ridden a sled in years, and have found them annoying from time to time, but the idea of restricting access even more definitely sets off alarms in the mountain-biking half of my brain. On the other hand, I think about some of the trails I ride and how because of all the bikes there's no way I would want to hike there and that must suck for those who do. Same theme, different season. I have trouble relating to anyone who comes down firmly on one side or the other - both have very valid points.

  5. #1005
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    There's simply a lot of misinformation out there. The recent LTBMU plan revision is a good example. A coalition of environmental groups proposed some Wilderness additions that had carve outs (cherry stems) for the popular mtn bike routes. The LTBMU chose to evaluate a Wilderness alternative that lacked these cherry stems.

    The mountain bike hiker conflict should be the easiest to manage. The problem hikers have is not with bikes in the area - they are quiet and have no emissions -- but with sharing the trails. So, if you create separate trails accessing the same terrain the conflict is resolved.

    Wilderness is, of course a big issue for bikes and, IMO there ought to be some bike trails in Wilderness. But that change is going to take a lot of people working together to get it accomplished, and is certainly nothing that an individual national forest can change by itself.
    It's not my fault you can't telemark.

  6. #1006
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    i'm going to be in sparks, nv to visit family next week
    i'd like to hit squaw, sugar bowl & mt rose if time allows

    are there single day ticket deals to be had during the holidays?

    discount at local grocery stores or the like?
    local purchase? (like i could get my in-laws to buy them with local ID?)

    (most likely ski days will be last second pull-the-trigger affairs based on family politics -- i need to "be there" and "spend time", but i'm also visiting a place that has actual snow...!)

  7. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by powfiend View Post
    Light ranger what is it about sleds a the few areas they are allowed that bothers you?
    That quote isn't exactly accurate. The current management scheme on FS lands is open unless closed. So look at the Lassen NF winter rec map and show me where sleds aren't allowed. And the Plumas. And the Tahoe. And the El Dorado. And the Stanislaus.

    Baaahb's post a ways up already went through it for the LTBMU, which has more restrictions, but also a TON more people (backcountry users, and generally) concentrated in it than the other places at issue.

    California also has the country's first motorized winter rec area that's specifically managed for sleds. I don't know if there are others now, but Bridgeport was the first.

    Quote Originally Posted by powfiend View Post
    As someone who enjoys both touring and sled touring I don't understand why people are upset by a little noise.
    That's fine. But if you don't understand it, then why are we having this conversation? There's some element of confirmation bias there too. See SkiWald's post above, "I thought sleds were annoying. And then I got one and they're awesome!" That's cool. For you. But your choice of recreation impacts other peoples' choices of recreation in a manner that there's doesn't impact yours. Thus the argument for additional restrictions in certain areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by powfiend View Post
    Most areas that are good for sledding are boring for skiing and most areas in Tahoe that are good for skiing would be extremely difficult to sled.
    That's possibly somewhat true if you think of skiing as a binary thing. But there are multiple different user groups within the ski community. Sled skiers are one. BC skiers looking for steep bowls and chutes are another. People on XCD gear looking to kick around over rolling terrain are a third. People on nordic gear wanting mellow terrain with good scenery are a fourth. Snowshoers generally fit into the last two categories.

    Quote Originally Posted by powfiend View Post
    If someone chooses to use a sled to access terrain that's a hassle to access by foot it is their choice. Why fight them because you choose to do things differently.
    That's not really the issue. I could care less about say, the terrain out past Barker Pass. Or the ENORMOUS amount of terrain between Bowman Lake Road and Little Truckee Summit that is primo sled terrain but way too far out for day tours from the trailhead. Or the ENORMOUS amount of terrain accessible from China Wall (Hell Hole area, etc.). That's not at issue.

    If people want specifics about the process as it goes forward, I'll see that they're posted and linked in here. That way, even if you're opposed to something Snowlands does, you're well-informed and you can make your own comments. I've been burning up a bunch of workday and family time responding to posts (that all bring up issues that have already been discussed at length on this very forum) when the process hasn't even gotten going yet, so there's nothing specific to really argue about at the moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  8. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by acinpdx View Post
    i'm going to be in sparks, nv to visit family next week
    i'd like to hit squaw, sugar bowl & mt rose if time allows

    are there single day ticket deals to be had during the holidays?

    discount at local grocery stores or the like?
    local purchase? (like i could get my in-laws to buy them with local ID?)

    (most likely ski days will be last second pull-the-trigger affairs based on family politics -- i need to "be there" and "spend time", but i'm also visiting a place that has actual snow...!)
    Shell stations used to have discounts when you bought gas. I think they may have worked during the holidays.

    Other than that, the usual sources (REI, Liftopia, etc.) you have to buy in advance, to my knowledge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  9. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by acinpdx View Post
    i'm going to be in sparks, nv to visit family next week
    i'd like to hit squaw, sugar bowl & mt rose if time allows

    are there single day ticket deals to be had during the holidays?

    discount at local grocery stores or the like?
    local purchase? (like i could get my in-laws to buy them with local ID?)

    (most likely ski days will be last second pull-the-trigger affairs based on family politics -- i need to "be there" and "spend time", but i'm also visiting a place that has actual snow...!)
    You might check out the Reno Costco, which sometimes sells ticket packages. But read the fine print very carefully to make sure the dates aren't blocked out.

  10. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_big_lepowski
    Thank god I will never have to leave alaska so this isn't much of an issuer for me
    Quote Originally Posted by LightRanger View Post
    Must be nice to have all that space with such few people.

    Must make management of public lands substantially different than California too.
    Not exactly. While Alaska is blessed with all that open space, it only has a small number of highways. And in order to go ridin' or skiin' you need a highway/road. Access is very much an issue in AK. Riders outnumber non-motorized types easily 10:1, maybe more so.

    The prime spot for skiing and snowmachining (don't call it snowmobiling lest you sound like a Chechako) in SC AK is Turnagain Pass which is NFS land. It's a large pass with good to unbelievable ski terrain on both sides of the highway. The easiest solution there was to give one side of the highway to the motorized crowd, the other side to the non-motorized crowd. It's an imperfect solution, but it works. It keeps the groups separate. It's imperfect mainly because when you are skinning on the non-moto side of the highway you are hearing and smelling machines a fair amount of the time once that season opens. For the motos, they'd probably like to have a crack at some of the terrain on the non-moto side. But every skinner would agree, it's better than not having any non-motorized terrain and given how outnumbered the mountain skinning hippies are, it's not a bad deal. Riders would probably be pissed too if the whole pass was non-motorized, so each side gets a good slice of the pie.

    The other primary SC AK BC ski spot, Hatcher Pass is managed by AK State Parks and is another story. I haven't been there for several years but I was following the park management plan update and the non-motorized crowd was essentially being ignored despite a significant presence. I really don't know how that all played out but it was not looking good for those wanting to earn turns in the traditionally non-motorized areas within that park. Thompson Pass near Valdez was a nightmare for non-motorized users with essentially no terrain designated for non-moto use. Maybe that's changed.
    My experiences are related to SC AK and I imagine it could be a lot different inland. But that issue of access points never goes away.

    After my experiences in AK, where snowmachines are pretty much everywhere, I find the arguments in CA kind of cute. I occasionally hear one machine off in the distance while touring around Tahoe. Nothing like Turnagain where the whine and odor is pretty consistent once the season opens.
    However, and I think this is the primary point that most people reading this discussion are missing, is that the NFS has essentially zero regulation of motorized use on their lands in the winter. And this is what is being "challenged" by Snowlands. They want there to at least be a recognition of this user group and some sort of method to manage it, or at least define it. This currently doesn't exist and probably should. On this point, I agree. Beyond that, outright bans across huge swaths of lands where motorized recreation makes sense, etc. I do not support.

    For the record, if I were in the right space, I would definitely use a sled to access some great skiing that would otherwise take a day to slog in and out but for everyday recreational purposes, I'm not interested. I realize too they provide a critical link in SAR events and a snowmobile track can offer a pathway for other winter recreationalists. There needs to be a balance and that's the tricky part.
    Last edited by Tahoe Bromide; 12-18-2014 at 01:00 PM.

  11. #1011
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    AKBruin & LightRanger, thx!

  12. #1012
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    ^^^ Thanks for the input TB. I was aware of how Turnagain was managed.

    I've also seen Matt Kinney's posts over the years railing against the moto crowd in the Valdez area. No idea what the management situation is there now. Don't know him personally.

    But I think the point remains that, especially because of the user numbers (both overall number of people and numbers of people in each user group), management issues are different in AK than CA. CA's NVUM data--imperfect measure that it is--is pretty lopsided.

    I also think sled access to wilderness boundaries for ski purposes is cool. Usually that access is in areas that aren't popular with day touring BC skiers though... e.g. west side of Desolation, various higher trailheads on the Eastside (where the good skiing is farther up the drainage from the summer TH).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  13. #1013
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    acinpdx - check out the Tahoe Powder Pack (deal ends Saturday so buy now):
    http://squawalpine.com/tickets-passe...oe-powder-pack
    6 days for $400 good at SB and Squawlpine.

    Also if you're doing multiple days at SB this season get the core pass. Costs $20 or so and gives you a $15/day discount.

  14. #1014
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    Quote Originally Posted by teledad View Post
    acinpdx - check out the Tahoe Powder Pack (deal ends Saturday so buy now):
    http://squawalpine.com/tickets-passe...oe-powder-pack
    6 days for $400 good at SB and Squawlpine.

    Also if you're doing multiple days at SB this season get the core pass. Costs $20 or so and gives you a $15/day discount.
    Thx, Teledad!

  15. #1015
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    I don't mind sleds in the areas I ski but I wish they wouldn't fuck up the skin track. There are sometimes only a few options for routes that are both safe and skinnable and it doesn't help when a sled gets stuck and digs a crater in the choke of the track, or blasts up an established track and turns it to ice chunks. Maybe just an education issue.

  16. #1016
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    I am not against sleds but I wish they would stay out of Twin Peaks. Every time I think of heading out there, I see sled tracks all over the place. It is an easy approach from Alpine and used to be a fun ski but I haven't gone in years because of all the sled high marks.
    Twenty-Five Dollars and a six-pack to my name

  17. #1017
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    "A coalition of environmental groups proposed some Wilderness additions that had carve outs (cherry stems) for the popular mtn bike routes"

    Cherry Stemming is stupid, hard to manage, does not account for un-inventoried "use trails" (which I ride plenty of within the proposed wilderness areas) or allow new multi-use trails. Also the feds could very well say in the end we will make this wilderness but we don't want to bother with cherry stemming no matter what might be agreed on by the lobbing groups. The forest Service has been doing a great job managing the non wilderness area's within the basin IMHO. It was just another underhanded way for the Sierra club, Snowlands, etc to push out users they don't want to share with.

    I bet the snowmobiles were pretty excited at getting pushed out of all these areas
    Last edited by TahoeBC; 12-18-2014 at 03:20 PM.

  18. #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by acinpdx View Post
    i'm going to be in sparks, nv to visit family next week
    i'd like to hit squaw, sugar bowl & mt rose if time allows

    are there single day ticket deals to be had during the holidays?

    discount at local grocery stores or the like?
    local purchase? (like i could get my in-laws to buy them with local ID?)

    (most likely ski days will be last second pull-the-trigger affairs based on family politics -- i need to "be there" and "spend time", but i'm also visiting a place that has actual snow...!)
    Agree on getting the Tahoe SixPack. Best value for your desires.
    Someone once told me that I ski like a Scandinavian angel.

  19. #1019
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    truckeelocal & jcollingham, thx!

  20. #1020
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    i've been out 8 of the last 10 days and have yet to hear a sled.
    and now some tahoe conditions. started blue yesterday but went all graybird by the time we skied
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  21. #1021
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    Castle Peak was really nice today mainly due to a perfect amount of coverage that keeps the sleds out. In another month it goes back to being a worthless destination for backcountry skiing as every line conceivable will be highmarked. So there's that. It's nice to get it the one week it has good snow and it isn't destroyed by SNOWMOBILERS (they're not snow machines. A snow blower is a snow machine ). I did hear a few braaahpers in a bowl to the north. I'm done poking my stick

  22. #1022
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    Quote Originally Posted by barney View Post
    I am not against sleds but I wish they would stay out of Twin Peaks. Every time I think of heading out there, I see sled tracks all over the place. It is an easy approach from Alpine and used to be a fun ski but I haven't gone in years because of all the sled high marks.
    +1
    Funny, cuz I'm not anti sled. I just think they should be used for access, not destroying pow for the sake of destroying pow.

  23. #1023
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    But they have fun destroying pow. As annoying as you and I might find that, it's a legitimate use of the resource.

    I think well thought out, proactive, diverse recreation planning, implementation, management and enforcement is the key to success.
    I didn't believe in reincarnation when I was your age either.

  24. #1024
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    And what do back country skiers do? groom it

  25. #1025
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    If I had one I'd use it. It's just a shame sometimes. And I'm no statist, so who am I to tell them they can't use them in certain places? That's why I go to places they can't go when we get enough snow

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