Home Remodel: Do, Don'ts, Advice

[Foggy_Goggles]

Yeah, don't do that. Like most things insurance, "getting insurance" i.e. paying the premium can be the easy part. But deep in your policy will be something about unpermitted work. And what you want insurance for is to be able to make a claim.

As a contractor, I have no love for Permits and Inspections mostly because is provides no assurance to anybody about a standard of work and the government's style is weak sauce. But I have little to gain from not pulling permits.

So there are many ways you can get "caught". It doesn't mean you will. So do you feel lucky?

A. Builders Risk Insurance - you want this and often a permit is part of the application

B. County Assessor - So you are supposed to pay taxes on the increased sq/ft., value of your property. The permit kicks off this process. If you go to sell, the title work, MLS and so will kick out redflag if it doesn't match. Now you have a unpermitted addition and you own back taxes.

C. Nosy Neighbor/ Inspector Drive By

D. Oh and the Contractor - Your guys suck, you owe him money, he calls you in. This about why a contractor would knowingly not pull a required permit? What's in it for him?

Your risk is probably a function of the situation. Is it a 10x10 mudroom out on 40acres or pop top visible from the street?

Short Story: Don't. What is the permit cost, 5% of the project?

[Core Shot]

Adding square footage without a permit is stupidity.

You can do a lot of unpermitted shit inside an existing structure.

But no. The town has your footprint and square footage.

[schuss]

Yeah, not pulling permits is pretty dumb, especially as there's two major flavors of permitting practices.
1. Don't care much - mostly just a paper register - generally small towns etc. - minimal cost, some potential delay, but unlikely if you plan ahead. Also lets you get a heads up if something needs to go to zoning/planning for approval (Think ADU additions etc. that may have special rules or require a separate permit). Going around them is not just rude/inappropriate, it's not really going to save you any time. It also may trigger the town to go after someone for once because they didn't do the bare minimum.
2. Exacting professions and/or assholes - they will force you into complete explanations. This will force your contractor to do the right shit. Go around them and they'll probably be like the above - make you tear it all down and restore before starting again. Given the scale of the work, everyone involved knows permits should be pulled, so there will likely be no mercy unless you have tons of juice with town/city leadership.

There's also a ton of risk given that the structure may end up uninsurable and/or having the city sit on your head until you're in compliance. It's unlikely, but it definitely can happen. From a more realistic perspective, permitting and related items will let you figure out if your contractor is worth their salt or not, because as someone that sits on a very small planning board, it's really clear who has their shit together vs. who doesn't during that process, which may save you a ton of time/money/headaches.

[::: :::]

It should be noted some states don’t require permits for residential or even have a state residential building code, though any locality with any money likely does have some kind of community development code (zoning reqts)
So check your own jurisdiction’s requirements…

[jm2e]

This is a good read.


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[bodywhomper]

Really appreciate the feedback.

We’d need an entirely new septic system with the addition because tank is undersized by current standards. The septic is currently functioning well and we would not be increasing the demand on the system. This was told to me by the septic company owner about what to expect if we did an addition. When we were home shopping 10-15 years ago, we saw a lot places with unpermitted livable structures. We didn’t buy them, so I’m not sure how that all would have worked out during the sale.

[plugboots]

We have a room at our house that doesn’t have a closet, so we assumed it in the listing it couldn’t be classified as a bedroom. (It’s a big enough room, and could have one, but…) Our real estate agent said that it didn’t matter, as the number of bedrooms depends on the size of the septic system. Huh.

[bodywhomper]

Yeah. That’s is part of what we’d try (no closet and calling it an “office”) if we moved forward with the addition under a permit.

The feedback being provided is what I hoped to receive. Thanks!

The feedback/advice that I have gotten locally from builders is to strongly consider not getting a permit.


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[climberevan]

I'm with Foggy--definitely get a permit for expanding your livable square footage! The risk/reward ratio for not doing it is just not tenable. It's not like you can hide that work is happening, especially with a septic tank replacement!

My county recently started requiring engineer stamped electrical plans for kitchen remodels. This guarantees that many more people will do the work unpermitted. I can't figure out the building dept's motivation here. It's already like a 5 month wait and they want to increase the bullshit level even farther?

Meanwhile, in the town next door the permitting process couldn't be easier. Show up with your hand-drawn sketch and they will even correct it on the spot before issuing you an OTC permit for a total bathroom relocation.

The really impossible to grok part is that the county is run by old redneck "conservatives", while the city is the state capital and run by much more modern thinkers.

[nickwm21]

“Non-advice” about unpermitted work:

If someone might consider sleeping in it, permit it; IE added bedroom, ADU, large office with an egress window, interior wall moves in sleeping areas, etc…

If no one is ever going to think about sleeping in it, maybe roll the dice; detached simple garage, shed, small laundry room add, etc…

…Obviously dependent on AHJ and noisy neighbors…


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[schuss]

Really appreciate the feedback.

We’d need an entirely new septic system with the addition because tank is undersized by current standards. The septic is currently functioning well and we would not be increasing the demand on the system. This was told to me by the septic company owner about what to expect if we did an addition. When we were home shopping 10-15 years ago, we saw a lot places with unpermitted livable structures. We didn’t buy them, so I’m not sure how that all would have worked out during the sale.

This alone should trigger permitting, as I know in NH there's a state stamp/cert and they absolutely share it with the town/municipality. Generally you have some level of forgiveness if you're making things LESS noncompliant, but doing new noncompliant things in this era is just asking for trouble.

[bodywhomper]

Thanks all. Appreciate the feedback.

The need for a new septic is because of its size and not because of its functionality. The idea for the addition is to create a room under an existing deck.

The few builders that I have talked to and have visited or previously worked on the house (interior) have advised against permitting because of the increased fees and additional time (year+?) it’ll add to the project. One is a licensed contractor who could do the work (w/o permit), admittedly at risk. The other allowed his license to expire long ago (he’s close to retirement) to simplify his work life. My neighbor is an office manager for a construction company that mostly works in high end homes throughout California and the Tahoe area of Nevada (and occasionally in Europe?), including in my county. She’s been doing this for 20 yrs. Her advice is to avoid the permitting in our county. All these people are biased of course.

The issue with the septic replace may be avoided if we have it designed as an “office,” but it would initially function as another bedroom for one of the kids.

The issue with the septic may also likely blossom into issues with setbacks. Our property is not legally surveyed. The numbers do not add up in the initial divisions of my neighborhood in the legal descriptions. The title company office manager and I reviewed this when we first purchase the house. He said that it was pretty typical of our general area during the 50’s and 60’s when the lots were first divided.

[bfree]

This alone should trigger permitting, as I know in NH there's a state stamp/cert and they absolutely share it with the town/municipality. Generally you have some level of forgiveness if you're making things LESS noncompliant, but doing new noncompliant things in this era is just asking for trouble.

His whole point of not pulling permits is to avoid the septic re-do.

But I'll pile on and say it's a bad idea. Of course the contractors recommend it: they get paid just the same and deal with less BS along the way. But they're not the ones that have to deal with the consequences down the road.

[Flounder]

I’ve got no true for local permits but would never add size to the house without a permit. I’ll do my own electrical work just to avoid the prick of an inspector we have in town, just swapped breakers and ran new wires for induction too and wall oven. Over the years I’ve done 2 major additions and both were fully permitted. This article was big news while I was in architecture school and it’s stuck with me. Pretty funny it was 43 years ago today that it came down.

https://www.syracuse.com/vintage/201...ger_scott.html

While this case is far more egregious than what you are proposing, that doesn’t mean you’ll face no future repercussions. Add in using unlicensed or builders willing to risk their license and you’re just asking for a shit show. People that that don’t care about their license don’t care about you or your family.

If it ends up to “code” it’ll be bare minimum and probably from an outdated code. I’ve mentioned my opinion here before but to me, building to minimum code says “I’d do less if I was legally allowed to”. There is a big gap between a well built building and a building built to code. I prefer something well built but if you your planned route, keep posting updates. It could work out fine and drama free or it could be a shit show of epic proportions.

[californiagrown]

If you build the bedroom unpermitted, you may run into issues when you go to sell the the place- Eg the number of bedrooms on the register doesnt match the septic system... which will then require new septic system (with enlarged drainfield) and if you think you will have property line/setback issues, it would really suck to deal with all of that when you are trying to sell.

Personally, id permit it, but tell the framer to leave a nice spot for a future window or two wink, wink. then install the windows after County/City signoff. When it comes time to sell, you can remove the windows or replace them with unoperable windows to bring it back into compliance.


Could your homeowners insurance deny a large claim if they find out about unpermitted additions, even if the addition isnt being claimed?

[nickwm21]

Well if you’re paying someone to do it - get it permitted.


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[bodywhomper]

There’s a large consensus on this forum for that with lots of good reasons for it.


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[nickwm21]

Could your homeowners insurance deny a large claim if they find out about unpermitted additions, even if the addition isnt being claimed?

General property damage - they just cover a dollar value - they likely don’t care.

General Liability - if something happened in or adjacent to unpermitted work; if they found out they would likely use it to deny, regardless of cause.

Property damage / liability associated with construction defects in the unpermitted area - deny deny deny…



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[jm2e]

Buy an airstream. Checks every box.


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[Flounder]

General property damage - they just cover a dollar value - they likely don’t care.

I think this may have been true in the not too distance past, but I thinks it’s less true now as insurers look for any reason to drop coverage or deny claims. The days of insurers being flush with cash or even with enough cash to cover normal events is long gone. If they can find a way to deny a claim they will. Renovations done without a permit are probably hard to prove. Unpermitted additions, however are pretty obvious and easy to deny.

[lifelinksplit]

As a licensed contractor(albeit in MT) I'd agree with everyone else. My county has no permits except state for certain things. I have a hard time seeing why all the professionals in your area are telling you not to pull permits and take that risk. I don't mind permits but around here when we have to pull permits the fees are miniscule compared to scope of project and luckily we don't have to deal with bureaucracy and long wait times. Also no way would I pay a builder who isn't licensed and insured even if I knew them. As a side note, it's like Russian roulette with what kind of building inspector shows up.

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[old goat]

If you build the bedroom unpermitted, you may run into issues when you go to sell the the place- Eg the number of bedrooms on the register doesnt match the septic system... which will then require new septic system (with enlarged drainfield) and if you think you will have property line/setback issues, it would really suck to deal with all of that when you are trying to sell.

Personally, id permit it, but tell the framer to leave a nice spot for a future window or two wink, wink. then install the windows after County/City signoff. When it comes time to sell, you can remove the windows or replace them with unoperable windows to bring it back into compliance.


Could your homeowners insurance deny a large claim if they find out about unpermitted additions, even if the addition isnt being claimed?

What is the issue with the windows. Why can't you have egress spec'd windows in an office, even if they're not required?

[bodywhomper]

We have considered an air stream or other trailer of some sort. The county is even debating now about making then permittable- tiny house on wheels. There’s also some permitable hard-sided prefab yurts sold in our area that are apparently very easy to permit as an “office” or art studio. Some of this is about the emotional need of our children and predicting the future of their needs.

[Foggy_Goggles]

I guess generically, the answer is "it depends". And a lot of that is both jurisdictional and your personal tolerance for the risk of no permit or the headache of a permit. And my take is that their is something close to zero value in the service that the building department offers in terms of quality of construction. The take is that the homeowner is responsible for ensuring that all work is done to both code and acceptable workmanship standards and that the inspections are a courtesy.

3 projects that I've dealt with lately.

+/$150k interior remodel that meets the requirement for a permit (replumbed shower, some new recepts, new range hood) where the customer took the risk in writing and there was no permit. Fairly busy street, the inspectors drove by. Nobody said shit.

+/$1million remodel on a new home where, after commencement, all kinda of non-code, not to plan, structural, electrical and mechanical deficiencies have been identified including in wall romex splices, gas lines run through return air, overspanned rafters, improper building envelope/insulation and so on. The County's response is, "uh, we don't care, must of got changed after we inspected. Pound sand." Everyone is getting sued.

+/-$5mill. New Construction up by the ski area. They have a glass panel system as a guard rail over an open stair case with polished concrete treads and a large format marble tile on the landing. the glass comes to a point at the top of the stairs. All the flooring surfaces are slippery as fuck. The grab rail is against the wall on the other side of the stairs. Everyone agrees it is about the most dangerous feature in a house every. Its a mountain house so most people are wearing slippers or socks. Some kid will be skating down the hall way, get loose, whack their face and the tumble down the stairs. But hey, "safety and soundness, got that grippable return on the grab rail?"

[fastfred]

poat up the address I'll be there in two weeks
hell i throw in a new septic for free
no permits no insurance
is there a home depot near buy I can grab a few guys at to help out?
I'll do it all elec plumbing framing concrete tile paint