What a terrible situation

[seatosky]

she's already dead, I don't see the value in spending resources keeping what is basically an empty shell alive

if your dog were in that state, you'd put it down.

[LAN]

I can't believe it's taken this long for someone to bring up this clusterfuck.

What freaks me out is that the goverment got involved to begin with.

I don't know Terry or her family, but look at it this way: She spent her last several years living with her husband, not her family. I'm guessing that she spent more time with him than her parents. So as her next of kin, I would assume that he knew her final wishes "better" than her parents.

Then I think about the fact that she had an eating disorder - a disorder that is all about control. Did her parents keep a tight leash on her as a youngster? Are they still trying to exhibit some sort of control on her? I dunno ...

I just feel bad for Terri. She died 15 years ago. Now she's caught between existing and dying. She's not able to "live" as we know it, but her parents won't let her die. Again, I don't know her, but I suspect that her existence is nothing like we know life to be. She can't talk, laugh or communicate her feelings. She relies on someone else to change her bag of tube feed, wipe her bottom and turn her before she gets a bedsore.

It's only a matter of time before she gets pneumonia or a bedsore like Christopher Reeve. And if she is able to "live," and the DPOA is turned over to her parents (which I doubt it will), what happens when her parents are gone? If withdrawing care truely was her wish, I hope that she dies with comfort and with dignity.

[LAN]

Fucking DeLay

Don't even get me started. I feel like throwing the TV out the window everytime I see him on the screen.

[Blurred]

I'm sure your diatribe isn't reflective of any displeasure with the Constitution and general legal system in the "Free-est Country on the Earth..."

Your sarcasm is dead on. And even though most have me pegged as a knee-jerk conservative, I'm also pro-choice. I don't like the government telling me what to do, or in this case, who can live or die. I go back and forth on the death sentence, but I think all three of these issues have a lot in common.

[lemon boy]

IT ISN'T THE GOVERNMENT SAYING SHE CAN DIE IT IS THE GOVT TRYING TO KEEP HER ALIVE LIKE SOME GROTESQUE EXPERIMENT.

What part of that is so hard to get? The only person who is trying to let her die in this is her husband who is carrying out her wishes (as TWENTY + court decisions have affirmed). :shrug:

[PNWbrit]

Then I think about the fact that she had an eating disorder - a disorder that is all about control. Did her parents keep a tight leash on her as a youngster? Are they still trying to exhibit some sort of control on her? I dunno ...

I've thought this from the moment I learned about the events that had actually led to her condition. Hopefully if true her parents will torture themselves over it for their remaining years. Unfortunately Larry King, Oprah and Dr home spun southern sense bald fuck what ever his name is will seek to deify them rather than dare blame them for one moment of her suffering.

[Blurred]

or in this case, who can live or die

IT ISN'T THE GOVERNMENT SAYING SHE CAN DIE IT IS THE GOVT TRYING TO KEEP HER ALIVE LIKE SOME GROTESQUE EXPERIMENT.

Same thing being said.

[DaveTV]

Neurologists see little sign of activity
March 24, 2005
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Scans of Terri Schiavo - the woman at the centre of America's right-to-die debate - show most of her brain tissue, where thinking and feeling occur, has died off.

Neurologists said it had been replaced by watery fluid, with no chance of growing back.

About 70 to 90 per cent of her upper brain is gone.

There's also damage to her lower brain that controls instinctive functions such as breathing and swallowing, said three Florida neurologists who viewed 12 of her CT "computed tomography" X-ray scans this week.

"This is as severe brain damage as I've ever seen," said Dr Leon Prockop, a professor and former chairman of neurology at the University of South Florida College of Medicine in Tampa.

Dr Walter Bradley, chairman of neurology at the University of Miami's Miller School of Medicine, added: "I doubt there's any activity going on in the higher levels of her brain."

[smmokan]

What freaks me out is that the goverment got involved to begin with.

I don't think this is the case... the gov't wasn't involved until her parents got it involved- trying to appeal at every possible level until their resources finally run out. Like someone else said, this woman is just a shell with no quality of life- let her die in peace.

[focus]

if the gov't wasn't involved she'd have been "murdered" long ago. but don't let that stop you from bitching at an issue from both sides at the same time, brett...

and... as others have already said -- experts do agree that dehydration/starvation IS a peaceful way to go. It's how my grandma went this past summer, and I've never seen her more peaceful than when we finally stopped trying to keep her alive and let her slip off. now, you may not agree with the experts, and you may say they can't *really* know...but wtf does that mean?? nobody *really* knows if she hasn't been in excruciating agony for the past 15 years. Let it lie. people suffer. people die. that's the way of the world and it will continue to be the way of the world.

as controversial as this may be, she's done. she has no comprehension of anything at this point, all that's left is the portions of her brain that regulate her body. EVERYTHING we see her do on tv is reactionary. all that's left of her is a shell, animals have more mental faculty than terry, she died long ago. pain and agony as we know it is beyond her.

[FNG]

You know what would really make this interesting? If Bush hadn't put the clamps on stem cell research. What we have been led to believe is that stem cell therapy has the possibility to regenerate critical tissues in the brian. Boy wouldn't that come in handy now?

Of course this is all assuming the docs get it all to work right.

[Woodsy]

Delay put the hippo in hippo crit.


funny e-mail a good fiend sent out to all he knows:

Dear loved-ones,

Please save this or print a copy out or remember this if I become brain dead. I make the following statement in a sound state of mind and of my own volition:

If I am rendered comatose and determined to be in a persistent vegetative state (PVS) for a period longer than one month and if no imminent cure is forthcoming, I do not wish to be kept alive by artificial means including but not limited to nourishment, hydration, etc.

However....

If, due to the absurd political state of affairs in this country, my persistent vegetative state and impending unplugging can be parlayed into some sort of political leverage, I wholly endorse using my predicament in whatever way possible for the purposes of passing legislation favorable to my general political and ethical outlook. Here is a list of top-tier causes I support and will continue to support, both while in my PVS and after my eventual death.

* Debt Relief to Impoverished Nations: I will agree to stay in a PVS for an indeterminate amount of time if the United States aggressively pursues a policy of debt relief and debt forgiveness to developing and impoverished nations. Call Bono and see what he wants.

* Nuclear Disarmament and De-escalation: I will agree to stay in a PVS for a open-ended period of time if the United States aggressively pursues a policy of nuclear disarmament and de-escalation. By this I mean desisting from developing new bellicose nuclear technologies and providing significant non-military incentives for nations to avoid nuclear armament.

* Humanitarian Foreign Policy: I will demure to the pro-Life contingent's desire that I be kept in a PVS in perpetuum if the United States aggressively pursues a humane foreign policy. This policy should be guided by the idea that this country must use its economic prowess and leverage to bring education, health care, basic services, and opportunity to the millions of disenfranchised, impoverished and oppressed peoples of the world. For example, instead of providing Bradley Fighting Vehicles or F16s to the Israeli army, the United States would open a free, state-of-the-art, health clinics in every West Bank refugee camp.

* Environmentally Sensitive Policy: I agree to be kept "plugged-in" and in a PVS until I expire of other natural causes if the United States aggressively pursues a policy of environmental sensitivity. This policy should include an economic emphasis on renewable energy sources, preserving open spaces, protecting environmentally sensitive areas (such as the Biosphere Reserves, ANWAR, Amazon Basin, etc.) and using economic and political leverage to encourage other nations to behave in like manner.

Should my friends or family find a way to use the issue of my impending unplugging to bring Congress into emergency session, to draft emergency legislation, or to encourage politicians to make statements favorable to the abovementioned causes, I hereby grant permission to do whatever is necessary with my body to accomplish said ends.

If the United States Government coldly and callously dismisses the value and sanctity of my life by refusing to enact the policies laid out above, I will offer a staggered plan of unplugging. With each of the following acts, truly pro-Life leaders will be able to secure more time for my existence, sustained via the miracles of modern medicine, while I enjoy my PVS.

* Plant 30 mature trees in an inner-city ( + 1 day!! )
* Build one basketball court in an inner-city ( + 1 day!! )
* Remove graffiti from 10 inner-city buildings ( + 4 days!! )
* Build a playground in an inner-city ( + 1 week!! )
* Build and staff a library in an inner-city ( + 1 week!! )
* Repair an inner-city school and provide adequate heating ( + 1 week!! )
* Provide computers and computer classes to an inner-city school system ( + 10 days!! )
* Build and staff a community center in an inner-city ( + 10 days!! )
* Build and staff a job training center in an inner-city ( + 2 weeks!!)
* Build and staff a school in a inner-city ( + 2 weeks!! )
* Provide text books for all students of an inner-city school system ( + 2 weeks!! )
* Build and staff a health care clinic in an inner-city ( + 3 weeks!! )
* Build and staff an emergency room in an inner-city ( + 30 days!!! )

*** EXCITING LIMITED-TIME OFFER!!! ***
Should these staggered incentives prove inadequate to morally motivate the conservative "pro-Life" leadership in this country, for a limited time, I will allow the US Government (State, County and City Governments are also welcome to participate!) to keep me alive in a PVS as follows:

* Save my life for an additional minute by contributing two dollars ($2.00 US) to any one of the following non-profit organizations: WHO, OxFam, Greenpeace, Earth Justice, NOW, NARAL, MoveOn.org, Act For Change, Free the Slaves, Anti-Slavery International, ACLU, or Amnesty International.

* Please note: You can purchase blocks of minutes at a discounted rate of $1.75 per minute of life!!


The above statements represent my true and unadulterated wishes, given here under no coercion whatsoever. These statements should be taken as the legally-binding wishes of yours truly.
name with held cuz he didnt consent to this but he posts silly drunk stories about me on his scooter bbs so there.

[powderwhore]

I guess we all don't see enough of this crap on the news! Why do we need to discuss it here?

Pull the plug and harvest the organs.

[WhiteHunter]

I guess we all don't see enough of this crap on the news! Why do we need to discuss it here?

Pull the plug and harvest the organs.

Why discuss it here? Why not discuss it here? Take a look at the posts so far. Although there are a fair number of you that have obviously thought about the subject a great deal, there are obviously several who have either not thought through the issue or have rifled off an opinion while clearly having learned very little about the facts of the case.

Just like so many important issues that will affect many of our lives in very profound ways, few of us take the time to have serious discussions aboout these issues and then act surprised when the idiots we elect to public office grandstand on an issue to score public relations points.

And for those of you who a blasting the Republicans for the regrettable legislative intervention, wake up and smell the coffee! The vote on the legislation passed with relative ease. A whole lot of Democrats voted yea. Although the Asshole aka Tom Delay and the Republican leadership may have led the charge, a lot of Dems followed right along. And they did it because they know the number of voters that would turn against them for voting no was greater than the number that would support them for voting no. Unfortunately it is really that simple.

Serious discussions about these kinds of issues don't need to change anyone's mind about how they personally would handle a situation like this. But any intelligent human being should be able to come to an understanding, and hopefully an appreciation for others views and beliefs. And if we could accompliish that, there might be a few less jackasses trying to legislate their beliefs and values onto everyone else. A few less idiots screaming "murder" and taking it upon themselves to play God and judge everyone else's actions based on their own narrow or uneducated understanding of the world.

Why in the hell wouldn't we want to encourage each other to think?

[Blurred]

A few less idiots screaming "murder" and taking it upon themselves to play God and judge everyone else's actions based on their own narrow or uneducated understanding of the world.

I'm pretty sure you just called yourself an idiot. That almost makes you smart.

[SLCFreshies]

The case is really not a complicated case.

Is Terry Schiavo in a persistent vegetative state? As determined by the courts after 6 days of expert-witness testimony--YES. (Although, in my mind, it would be actually a WORSE situation if she was conscious. Imagine not being able to move, communicate, or function independently at all AND being conscious.)

Since the patient cannot make health care decisions on her own, who is the next decision-maker? THE HUSBAND.

Did the husband show "clear and convincing evidence" as per Cruzan that she would not want life-sustaining treatment if she were in a persistent vegetative state? YES, as deemed by the courts.

That's it. End of discussion.

There is NOTHING unique about these decisions. They happen every day in every hospital in the country. The only thing unique about this case is that most families do not require the EVERY single state and federal court in their jurisdiction plus the Supreme Court to solve their disputes.

In addition, she is not "starving" and will not starve after two weeks. Do people on hunger strikes die after two weeks? No. She will die of uremia brought on by renal failure secondary to dehydration. People who have intact neurological systems that suffer high levels of uremia become unconscious and unaware of their surroundings (a.k.a. uremic encephalopathy). Also, any hospice facility worth its license will know how to give narcotics on the off chance that she did show signs of discomfort, like rapid breathing or a rapid heart beat.

The amount of misinformation spread by most of the media and politicians is, to me, the most disturbing thing about this case.

[snowsprite]

Yeah, okay. Having seen what happens to people in a vegetative state under our current system I'm getting DNR tattooed on my breasts (first place they'll look if they're guys).

Also if I get really, really sick I'll make sure to take myself out before I run out of options (or consciousness) and "the government" and "the constitution" step in to make sure I'm not "murdered" and instead have myself a nice, slow, "natural" death.

Sprite

[shamrockpow]

Oregon is the only state where you have options when the suffering gets to be too much. It call the Oregon Death with Diqnity act, the voters of Oregon have passed it twice, and more than 200 oregonians have taken advantage of it since its inception. Many more have had the peace of mind of having the necessary drugs on the shelf, ready for use if necessary, but never used them. Since the law was passed, Oregon has also become nationally known as a leader in palliative care for the terminally ill. Of course if you are in a PSV, this law won't help you, you need advanced directives/living will/etc.

While I'm generally in favor of the same concepts as Snowsprite and those found in Oregon law, I am worried about what might happen if "death with dignity" became more widespread. My grandfather is 95 years old and (knock wood) in good health. If he were to become ill, I would worry about the pressure a death with dignity law puts on the families of terminally ill patients. Should they have the right to die peacefully? Yes. But what about those that persist in hanging on to life to the bitter end? Would that attitude be looked down upon as "undignified"???

[natty dread]

While I'm generally in favor of the same concepts as Snowsprite and those found in Oregon law, I am worried about what might happen if "death with dignity" became more widespread. My grandfather is 95 years old and (knock wood) in good health. If he were to become ill, I would worry about the pressure a death with dignity law puts on the families of terminally ill patients. Should they have the right to die peacefully? Yes. But what about those that persist in hanging on to life to the bitter end? Would that attitude be looked down upon as "undignified"???

To me, dignity is all about having the choice. It's the recognition that some terminal patients want to live to the last moment and some want a dignified exit. The oregon "experiment" has been going on for 7 years and the concerns you bring up have not materialized. I know you are sincere and I respect your opinion. Unfortunately, all too often your rational arguments are used as cover by the Delay god squad.

[natty dread]

NYT:
Federal Judge Condemns Intervention in Schiavo Case
By ABBY GOODNOUGH and WILLIAM YARDLEY

Published: March 31, 2005


PINELLAS PARK, Fla., March 30 - A federal appeals court in Atlanta refused Wednesday to reconsider the case of Terri Schiavo, with one of the judges rebuking President Bush and Congress for acting "in a manner demonstrably at odds with our founding fathers' blueprint for the governance of a free people."

Mr. Schindler and his wife, Mary, had asked the full United States Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit on Wednesday to consider ordering their daughter's feeding tube reinserted. A three-judge panel declined to issue such an order last Friday, and after less than day's deliberation, the full court issued a 10-to-2 decision rejecting the latest request.

The Schindlers filed an emergency appeal with the Supreme Court Wednesday night asking that Ms. Schiavo's feeding tube be reinsterted. The Supreme Court has declined to intervene in the case five times.

The 11th Circuit Court decision, signed by Chief Judge J. L. Edmondson, was only a sentence long. But in a concurring opinion, Judge Stanley F. Birch Jr., appointed by the first President Bush in 1990, wrote that federal courts had no jurisdiction in the case and that the law enacted by Congress and President Bush allowing the Schindlers to seek a federal court review was unconstitutional.

"When the fervor of political passions moves the executive and legislative branches to act in ways inimical to basic constitutional principles, it is the duty of the judiciary to intervene," wrote Judge Birch, who has a reputation as consistently conservative. "If sacrifices to the independence of the judiciary are permitted today, precedent is established for the constitutional transgressions of tomorrow."

In particular, Judge Birch wrote, a provision of the new law requiring a fresh federal review of all the evidence presented in the case, litigated for seven years in state court, made it unconstitutional. Because that provision constitutes "legislative dictation of how a federal court should exercise its judicial functions," he wrote, it "invades the province of the judiciary and violates the separation of powers principle."

David J. Garrow, a legal historian at Emory University who closely follows the 11th Circuit, said Judge Birch's opinion was striking because the judge was a conservative Republican, especially regarding social issues. Judge Birch wrote the ruling for a three-judge panel of the court last year unanimously upholding a Florida law that prohibits gay men and lesbians from adopting children.

"This is a Republican judge going out of his way to directly criticize the Congress and President Bush for what they've done," Mr. Garrow said.

[snowsprite]

Yes! It's all about individual choice. I would never look down on somebody for wanting to live and fighting as much as possible. If you can handle the pain, and that's what you want...go for it. It's your choice! (or at least should be)

I had a similar problem with individual choice and rights pertaining to my body when I gave birth to my son (:::senses collective flinch from the men::. I wanted a c-section and that damned doctor wouldn't do it until it really came down to the wire. By then, terrible things were happening. I would have signed any waiver available to have wrapped it up much sooner. I'm a big whimp. I wanted IV drugs from the first cramp and surgically remove that baby, clean him up, and hand him to me like nothing happened. The Doc knew this, but she refused to abide. But it's my body, my life, my choice. I feel the same about dying. It's my pain, my death, should be my choice. Why shouldn't I be able to make some choices?

When you get sick it's really scary how much control you lose when you go into the hospital and doctors are hovering over you telling you this and that about why they can't (or won't) do what you want. I understand all the liabilities and issues that they face. But I do believe that a patient's voice too often gets lost in the shuffle. 72 hours of labor waiting for that c-section sure is a long time to ignore the voice.

Sprite

[WhiteHunter]

Anyone watch South Park tonight? Cartman convinced a judge to remove Kenny's feeding tube. Bastard!

[G]

Thanks sprite

___________________________________

[hucksquaw]

that pic ^^^^ is fuckin great!!!!

[hucksquaw]

i think these threads are fuckin stupid.. all this debate over divisive issues on a ski forum.. and most of the people on this board are so liberal that the threads are almost always started with a liberal viewpoint and whenever someone comes in with an opposing view they get gangbanged... fucking retarded if you ask me.. but thats only my opinion..