What a terrible situation

**gramps** · 03-30-2005, 11:27 PM

Blurred - as usual you suck for bringing up such a lame, hot button issue into this SKIING bulletin board.

Also, as usual - Nice way to start off the shitshow with an overly aggressive, completely inaccurate rant designed to do nothing but provoke a response. It's the husband's ( The legal guardian with power of attorney) wishes that are finally being fulfilled after a decade and a half of bickering with the rest of the family that have no legal say in the matter. Feeding tubes are pulled all the time, it is our society's accepted way of letting people die.

**Blurred** · 03-30-2005, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by gramps

Blurred - as usual you suck for bringing up such a lame, hot button issue into this SKIING bulletin board.

Also, as usual - Nice way to start off the shitshow with an overly aggressive, completely inaccurate rant designed to do nothing but provoke a response. It's the husband's ( The legal guardian with power of attorney) wishes that are finally being fulfilled after a decade and a half of bickering with the rest of the family that have no legal say in the matter. Feeding tubes are pulled all the time, it is our society's accepted way of letting people die.

If you were paying attention, society IS NOT accepting this way of letting people die. Even in our little forum, most people here agree that starving her to death is not a humane way to kill her. I'm sure if this was your mother or sister, you'd agree.

**summit** · 03-31-2005, 12:03 AM

TERRY SCHIAVO SOUTHPARK ON NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by snowsprite

Yeah, okay. Having seen what happens to people in a vegetative state under our current system I'm getting DNR tattooed on my breasts (first place they'll look if they're guys).

Dead people's breasts... not so hot. However if you want to post pics of these tatoos before you croak...

**SLCFreshies** · 03-31-2005, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

If you were paying attention, society IS NOT accepting this way of letting people die. Even in our little forum, most people here agree that starving her to death is not a humane way to kill her. I'm sure if this was your mother or sister, you'd agree.

What do you mean by "not accepting?" These things happen ALL the time everywhere. It's just usually these personal decisions are not plastered all over the news and commented on by every "expert."

As I said, she is not "starving to death." Those are inflammatory words. Would you say that someone who is removed from mechanical ventilation is "suffocating to death?" And receiving enteral nutrition through a PEG is NOT natural--it's a medical procedure. If you think it is, then maybe you should go to your local hospital, get a PEG inserted, receive nutrition that way, and see how natural that is.

The only relevant question here is "What would Terri want if she were in a persistent vegetative state?" It's not what you or I would do in such a situation. It's not what you or I think about her and her husband's decision. It's what would SHE want.

The husband showed "clear and convincing evidence" in court that withdrawal of nutrition is what she would have wanted. That's it. End of story.

No one here is saying that EVERYONE in her situation should have life-sustaining measures removed. If you get into a persistent vegetative state and you want to have everything done to you for as long as possible--go ahead. Your decision should be honored, just like her's should be.

**Blurred** · 03-31-2005, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by SLCFreshies

What do you mean by "not accepting?" These things happen ALL the time everywhere. It's just usually these personal decisions are not plastered all over the news and commented on by every "expert."

As I said, she is not "starving to death." Those are inflammatory words. Would you say that someone who is removed from mechanical ventilation is "suffocating to death?" And receiving enteral nutrition through a PEG is NOT natural--it's a medical procedure. If you think it is, then maybe you should go to your local hospital, get a PEG inserted, receive nutrition that way, and see how natural that is.

The only relevant question here is "What would Terri want if she were in a persistent vegetative state?" It's not what you or I would do in such a situation. It's not what you or I think about her and her husband's decision. It's what would SHE want.

The husband showed "clear and convincing evidence" in court that withdrawal of nutrition is what she would have wanted. That's it. End of story.

No one here is saying that EVERYONE in her situation should have life-sustaining measures removed. If you get into a persistent vegetative state and you want to have everything done to you for as long as possible--go ahead. Your decision should be honored, just like her's should be.

Hers haven't been honored, that's what the whole argument is about. And yes, you're correct. She won't starve first, without the fluids her kidneys will fail, and then her heart will fail. Sounds like a really fuckin' sweet way to go, eh? Here's the thread Lemon supplied, you may want to read it and learn the facts. http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

**TJ.Brk** · 03-31-2005, 12:13 AM

Well I have had to deal with a situation like this on two levels.

1. Working in a Hospice for a period of time, and seeing how events of this nature takes its toll upon familys. But more importantly upon the person that is no longer there waiting to move on to the next form of life.

2. I had to make this decision for my Grandfather. I was left with the final decision to have the plug pulled. I have had family that will not talk to me because I went through with his wishes. I miss him terribly. Yes some days I wish I didn't go through with it. But I also know what my grandfather wanted. And I know he is always with me. And that the best decision was made. The brain dead person in that hospice bed was not my grandfather. But my Grandfathers spirit needed to be set free. And I'm proud to have done that for him.

Now about the money deal. Public records shows that the money from the malpractice lawsuit that went directly to Terry's care was exhausted 5 years ago. Her care has been kept up mostly from Gov't funds, then her Husband David, her family, and donations. There is no money left.

Now if any of you fault David for getting 300K because someone fucked up causing him to lose the wife he loved. Shame on you. The guy has been there everyday for her. Driving staff crazy to make sure her care was perfect. 15 years without a bed sore at all. As a nurse, and LAN will tell this to you as well. Well that is mostly unheard of. It shows his decation to his wife.

I feel for the parents of Terry. I know they are in pain. No parent wants to out live their child. But I do not think they are thinking clearly. I know I wouldn't be if it was my child in this situation. But the courts have been a calm thinking 3rd party and have taken in all of the evidence. That is where this final decision should lay. I know in my living will that it is expressly stated that my mother shall have no rights in any medical decision making because she will only look at the situation as "saving her little boy". Much like Terry's parents are only looking at it as "saving my little girl". No parent can possibly be expected to be unbias in this situation.

I have taken care of patients in the state of Terry. It's aweful to discribe. Words cannot do it justice. And I too have witnessed parents or loved ones saying they witnessed some kind of intelligent response, when it was just a brain stem knee jerk reaction. The Terry that they knew died long ago. I know they don't believe so, but she has.

Now it is getting to nit picking Jesse Jackson BS. He's not there for the family. He is there for facetime.

What the Repulicans have forced through congress and signed into law by President Bush is infact a precident to take away our own individual rights of deciding when to stop medical care and just let us die in peace and solitude.

Now we all love the outdoors. Hell we cannot live through a year peacefully unless we got in atleast 40 days of skiing. So let me ask you this.

If you suffered what Terry did. You cannot control any of your bodily functions. You cannot communicate. You cannot even swallow. You have no idea of the people around you. Would you want somebody forcing you to live that way?

Or would you want to be set free to die in peace. To go unto God and ski the fresh everyday?

**FNG** · 03-31-2005, 12:25 AM

Did you guys know that Robert Blake was aquitted?

**adam** · 03-31-2005, 12:25 AM

TJ! It's adam from k2! sup? i didn't know u posted on here.

**adam** · 03-31-2005, 12:27 AM

tj, or u on msn?

**TJ.Brk** · 03-31-2005, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by FNG

Did you guys know that Robert Blake was aquitted?

So was OJ. Go figure those California courts

**SLCFreshies** · 03-31-2005, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

Hers haven't been honored, that's what the whole argument is about. And yes, you're correct. She won't starve first, without the fluids her kidneys will fail, and then her heart will fail. Sounds like a really fuckin' sweet way to go, eh?

It doesn't matter if you think it's a "sweet way to go" or not--it's what she would have wanted, as has been demonstrated by "clear and convincing evidence."

It sounds like you have NO idea what a hospice is like. They will keep her comfortable. That's why people go to a hospice--because hospices are facilities that specialize in end-of-life care.

Sometimes the most dignified way to die is by withdrawing care. If you don't think so, then you should hang out in your local ICU a little more. Tubes in every orifice--rectal tube, Foley catheter, endotracheal tube, orogastric tube. Dialysis machines that constantly take blood out of your body, filter it, and put it back. A machine that breathes for you. Medications that keep you blood pressure up. Large IV's in your neck, groin, and wrist. LVADs that pump blood around your body. It is almost eerie what can be done these days.

And all of it is artificial--just like nutrition through a PEG tube is. If she did not want artificial life-sustaining measures done, then her wishes should be granted. Wouldn't you want your wishes followed? Or would you rather have politicians in Washington, pundits on TV, and two-bit hacks on the internet deciding it for you?

**ill-advised strategy** · 03-31-2005, 12:53 AM

Thousands of able bodied people starve every day. Why should we feed somebody who's brain dead?

**Ski Monkey** · 03-31-2005, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

If you were paying attention, society IS NOT accepting this way of letting people die. Even in our little forum, most people here agree that starving her to death is not a humane way to kill her. I'm sure if this was your mother or sister, you'd agree.

If society isn't accepting of this way of letting people die then why did 82% if people in a recent CBS news poll say congress and the president should have stayed out of it? Surely if they thought this was an outrage and they were not accepting of it they wouldn't have thought congress and the president should stay out of it.

Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

Hers haven't been honored, that's what the whole argument is about.

You keep saying this but how do you know? Did you talk to her 15 years ago? The only credible information about this is what her husband has said and the courts have backed him up every single time.

**Dantheman** · 03-31-2005, 01:02 AM

Don't forget the fact that by keeping her alive we may be allowing Satan's army to conquer Heaven.

**fez** · 03-31-2005, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

If you were paying attention, society IS NOT accepting this way of letting people die. Even in our little forum, most people here agree that starving her to death is not a humane way to kill her. I'm sure if this was your mother or sister, you'd agree.

does anyone else see any irony in all this talk about how inhumane it is to starve her to death when SHE ALREADY DID THAT HERSELF???

**shmerham** · 03-31-2005, 07:48 AM

I'm kinda dissapointed that the money issue isn't a bigger factor. It's not the government's obligation (and therefore the taxpayers') to keep me alive.

**lemon boy** · 03-31-2005, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Delay put the hippo in hippo crit.

Dear loved-ones,

Please save this or print a copy out or remember this if I become brain dead. I make the following statement in a sound state of mind and of my own volition:

If I am rendered comatose and determined to be in a persistent vegetative state (PVS) for a period longer than one month and if no imminent cure is forthcoming, I do not wish to be kept alive by artificial means including but not limited to nourishment, hydration, etc.

However....

If, due to the absurd political state of affairs in this country, my persistent vegetative state and impending unplugging can be parlayed into some sort of political leverage, I wholly endorse using my predicament in whatever way possible for the purposes of passing legislation favorable to my general political and ethical outlook. Here is a list of top-tier causes I support and will continue to support, both while in my PVS and after my eventual death.

* Debt Relief to Impoverished Nations: I will agree to stay in a PVS for an indeterminate amount of time if the United States aggressively pursues a policy of debt relief and debt forgiveness to developing and impoverished nations. Call Bono and see what he wants.

* Nuclear Disarmament and De-escalation: I will agree to stay in a PVS for a open-ended period of time if the United States aggressively pursues a policy of nuclear disarmament and de-escalation. By this I mean desisting from developing new bellicose nuclear technologies and providing significant non-military incentives for nations to avoid nuclear armament.

* Humanitarian Foreign Policy: I will demure to the pro-Life contingent's desire that I be kept in a PVS in perpetuum if the United States aggressively pursues a humane foreign policy. This policy should be guided by the idea that this country must use its economic prowess and leverage to bring education, health care, basic services, and opportunity to the millions of disenfranchised, impoverished and oppressed peoples of the world. For example, instead of providing Bradley Fighting Vehicles or F16s to the Israeli army, the United States would open a free, state-of-the-art, health clinics in every West Bank refugee camp.

* Environmentally Sensitive Policy: I agree to be kept "plugged-in" and in a PVS until I expire of other natural causes if the United States aggressively pursues a policy of environmental sensitivity. This policy should include an economic emphasis on renewable energy sources, preserving open spaces, protecting environmentally sensitive areas (such as the Biosphere Reserves, ANWAR, Amazon Basin, etc.) and using economic and political leverage to encourage other nations to behave in like manner.

Should my friends or family find a way to use the issue of my impending unplugging to bring Congress into emergency session, to draft emergency legislation, or to encourage politicians to make statements favorable to the abovementioned causes, I hereby grant permission to do whatever is necessary with my body to accomplish said ends.

If the United States Government coldly and callously dismisses the value and sanctity of my life by refusing to enact the policies laid out above, I will offer a staggered plan of unplugging. With each of the following acts, truly pro-Life leaders will be able to secure more time for my existence, sustained via the miracles of modern medicine, while I enjoy my PVS.

* Plant 30 mature trees in an inner-city ( + 1 day!! )
* Build one basketball court in an inner-city ( + 1 day!! )
* Remove graffiti from 10 inner-city buildings ( + 4 days!! )
* Build a playground in an inner-city ( + 1 week!! )
* Build and staff a library in an inner-city ( + 1 week!! )
* Repair an inner-city school and provide adequate heating ( + 1 week!! )
* Provide computers and computer classes to an inner-city school system ( + 10 days!! )
* Build and staff a community center in an inner-city ( + 10 days!! )
* Build and staff a job training center in an inner-city ( + 2 weeks!!)
* Build and staff a school in a inner-city ( + 2 weeks!! )
* Provide text books for all students of an inner-city school system ( + 2 weeks!! )
* Build and staff a health care clinic in an inner-city ( + 3 weeks!! )
* Build and staff an emergency room in an inner-city ( + 30 days!!! )

*** EXCITING LIMITED-TIME OFFER!!! ***
Should these staggered incentives prove inadequate to morally motivate the conservative "pro-Life" leadership in this country, for a limited time, I will allow the US Government (State, County and City Governments are also welcome to participate!) to keep me alive in a PVS as follows:

* Save my life for an additional minute by contributing two dollars ($2.00 US) to any one of the following non-profit organizations: WHO, OxFam, Greenpeace, Earth Justice, NOW, NARAL, MoveOn.org, Act For Change, Free the Slaves, Anti-Slavery International, ACLU, or Amnesty International.

* Please note: You can purchase blocks of minutes at a discounted rate of $1.75 per minute of life!!

The above statements represent my true and unadulterated wishes, given here under no coercion whatsoever. These statements should be taken as the legally-binding wishes of yours truly.
name with held cuz he didnt consent to this but he posts silly drunk stories about me on his scooter bbs so there.

funny e-mail a good fiend sent out to all he knows:

Woodsy- can that be reposted? It is fucking brilliant.

**Blurred** · 03-31-2005, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by fez

does anyone else see any irony in all this talk about how inhumane it is to starve her to death when SHE ALREADY DID THAT HERSELF???

Whoa, not that's messed up.

**ArmadaBC** · 03-31-2005, 08:39 AM

The problem is that she never clearly defined what she wanted, therefore the law states that it is up to her legal guardian to decide which unfortuently is her husband, the courts and so forth have to follow the law otherwise a new precedent would be set in which valid guardians could have there legitimate wishes overturned, ultimatley I wish she didn't have to die yet I hope it underscores the need for living wills

**Pinner** · 03-31-2005, 08:43 AM

Terri Schiavo and now the Pope?

Feeding tubes <--- so hot right now.

**SPREAD EAGLE** · 03-31-2005, 08:50 AM

She was Already Dead. The reason her husband pursued this end is because Terri expressed that she NEVER wanted to live in a vegatative state.
How would you like to be brain dead, shit/piss your pants, never enjoy your food, collect bed sores, and mimic a fallen log. Ain't the life. In Heaven she will be happy and able to interace with loved ones.

**SLCFreshies** · 03-31-2005, 09:08 AM

Finally, this circus is over. May she rest in peace.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Attorney for Terri Schiavo's Husband Says She Has Died
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: March 31, 2005

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (AP) -- Terri Schiavo, the brain-damaged woman kept alive by a feeding tube for 15 years during an epic legal and medical battle, has died, her husband's attorney said Thursday.

**shamrockpow** · 03-31-2005, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by shmerham

I'm kinda dissapointed that the money issue isn't a bigger factor. It's not the government's obligation (and therefore the taxpayers') to keep me alive.

George Bush agrees with you (at least he did when he was governor of Texas)

**Dexter Rutecki** · 03-31-2005, 11:28 AM

And since this thread started thousands of Africans, many children, have died of starvation.
But that's nothing that would prompt Congress or Bush to act. Or the media to cover it.