OFFICIAL I70 BITCH THREAD....

[Name Redacted]

You really think that chain laws will solve anything? Thousands of people chaining up on the side of the road? Enforcement of the chain laws? Road wear and tear? Rental car companies selling chains to all the Chryslers they rent? It is a logistical nightmare.

I wonder how often the road closed while traction laws were in effect. That would be an interesting stat. I also wonder what stretch the stats Smokkan talked about were for. Just Floyd Hill to Vail? Or CO? Or the whole Highway? People don't realize it, but Interstate 70 in Garfield County sees more fatal crashes than any other stretch of the highway west of the Denver metro area.

[hatchgreenchile]

Right now, we only have travel requirements of 4WD/AWD, snow rated tires or chains
I'd like to see 2 out of 3 required on bad weather days!
I'm with Shred, chains aren't worth it for most Joe Skiers going up and down I70.

[doebedoe]

I'd be happy with just require actual winter tires or chains on every car. None of this M+S / M/S / M&S bullshit that currently flies.

[bean]

If it's bad enough you need chains, it's bad enough that I-70 is closed. Agreed that M+S is a joke, it should be legitimate snow tires plus 4/AWD. Enforcement will continue to be the biggest hurdle.

[cmsummit]

I also wonder what stretch the stats Smokkan talked about were for. Just Floyd Hill to Vail? Or CO? Or the whole Highway?

Golden to Vail.

"the number of closures spiked by 42 percent this past winter, going from roughly 300 closures between Golden and Vail to 500 during the 2016-2017 season."

http://www.vaildaily.com/news/inters...gerous-ballet/

[Name Redacted]

If it's bad enough you need chains, it's bad enough that I-70 is closed. Agreed that M+S is a joke, it should be legitimate snow tires plus 4/AWD. Enforcement will continue to be the biggest hurdle.

M+S + 4wd is fine for CO roads.

[skaredshtles]

M+S + 4wd is fine for CO roads.

This. Our 4wd pickup with Michelin M+S tires is easily as sure-footed as our van with Blizzaks.

[summit]

There are M+S tires that are winter tires in all but compound.

And there are M+S tires that are fucking summer tires in the snow.

[SkiBall]

I go studded cuz when I want to get out of the way, I can. That, and leaving space though I am not always left space.

[wkd-rdr]

I am enjoying the commute most days.

[Shredhead]

People don't realize it, but Interstate 70 in Garfield County sees more fatal crashes than any other stretch of the highway west of the Denver metro area.

The Canyon can be gnarly. Plus a boulder can roll down and smoke a car load at anytime.
I’ve known 4 that died at no fault of anyone.
Be careful in the spring or when it’s raining.

[summit]

You really think that chain laws will solve anything? Thousands of people chaining up on the side of the road? Enforcement of the chain laws? Road wear and tear? Rental car companies selling chains to all the Chryslers they rent? It is a logistical nightmare.

How come winter tire laws works in other states and countries?

People don't realize it, but Interstate 70 in Garfield County sees more fatal crashes than any other stretch of the highway west of the Denver metro area.

I70 Garfield County does consist of 25% (70mi) of the total I70 mileage West of Denver and it is pretty much 100% twisty canyon driving from De Beque to Dotsero.

[bean]

M+S + 4wd is fine for CO roads.

I had a subaru with new (<3000mi) M+S-rated all-seasons and nearly died the first time I took them on an inch of snow. Like Summit said there are M+S tires that are great in the snow and there are M+S tires that are as bad as summer tires, which makes the M+S rating worthless.

[Name Redacted]

How come winter tire laws works in other states and countries?

Chain laws work on other smaller highways with less traffic. The Eisenhower tunnel sees over 35k cars per day in the winter. Where do you plan to park all of these cars so they can put their chains on?

[Name Redacted]

I had a subaru with new (<3000mi) M+S-rated all-seasons and nearly died the first time I took them on an inch of snow.

Sounds like it was shitty driving more than the tires. My Subaru has snows. My truck has M+S. Truck is actually better in the snow.

[bean]

I wish I could take credit for it but sadly it goes to the tires. I've got some M+S all-seasons now that look better tread-wise but are hard as a rock when the temp hits the 30s. Not a chance they're going up I-70 in the snow.

Surely it isn't possible that your tires being great in snow has nothing to do with the M+S rating.

[summit]

Sounds like it was shitty driving more than the tires. My Subaru has snows. My truck has M+S. Truck is actually better in the snow.

Bean can drive. I shouldn't have to explain this to you. But here we go. There are M+S tires and the are Severe Winter with the 3 peak mountain snowflake emblem that include studded snows, winter compound snows, and M+S snow tires that meet the rating.

M+S with a 3PMSF that is a studless winter tire in all but compound. Nokian WRG3 rocks as hard as a Blizzak most of the time, but the colder it gets, the larger the performance gap:


M+S with a 3PMSF that is an A/T tire. Wrangler SA is pretty darn good in snow, but not Blizzak good:

(This is my summer tire and I havent swapped over to my winters yet... maybe this weekend)

M+S with a 3PMSF that is an A/T tire. Kuhmo is barely better than an all season in the snow!!! YIKES!

(This is my wife's summer tire and she wants hers switched out ASAP)

M+S without the 3PMSF... Fun County is SCARY AS FUCK in the snow! I'll take all season instead please!

But it is M+S so I expect to see you keeping up with me and my Blizzaks!

Hopefully now you get that M+S covers a gamut including total bullshit worse than all seasons level scary. Most M+S don't have 3PMSF.

Requiring 3PMSF (severe winter service) is not too much to ask and even some of those are not outstanding.
It makes much more sense than saying M+S is good enough. 4wd is not 4 wheels stop.

An Accord with Blizzaks can stop faster and corner faster than a truck with bullshit M+S. I used to rock an Accord with Nokians for years before I upgraded to an SUV.

[Name Redacted]

You missed your mark bud. Thanks for all the pretty pictures and wasting your friday morning preaching about rubber.

Bottom line is: requiring snow tires or chains on all cars would be fucking stupid. You wanna get the tire industry to overhaul their rating system? Go for it. But requiring Nokians or Blizzaks on every car and truck is retarded. Talk to the rental car companies first.

I never said that there wasn't a difference in M+S. A capable driver could drive any of the tire you list above and keep it on the road with a 4wd truck.

BTW Why don't you just buy some BFG AT/KOs and be done with switching tires every season?

[bean]

Talk to the rental car companies first.

Could be on to something here...

Make snow tires mandatory for I-70 travel -> fewer rental cars going up to the mountains -> more people taking shuttle vans -> fewer Jerrys wadding up in half an inch of snow -> fewer closures from light snowfall events.

[SkiBall]

I had a subaru with new (<3000mi) M+S-rated all-seasons and nearly died the first time I took them on an inch of snow. Like Summit said there are M+S tires that are great in the snow and there are M+S tires that are as bad as summer tires, which makes the M+S rating worthless.

Early season?
I have had a couple pre-studded slip n slides that got the heart beating, but they were both early slicker snow.

[hatchgreenchile]

BTW Why don't you just buy some BFG AT/KOs and be done with switching tires every season?

Severe snow ATs for the win

[glademaster]

I run BFG KO2's on my 4Runner, and while they are 3PMSF rated, I still swap them out for Blizzaks in the winter. The BFG's don't brake or handle as well on hardpacked snow as the Blizzaks, plus the Blizzaks are 15 pounds per tire lighter, so I end up breaking even MPG wise, even with winter blend gas and colder temps.

The advantage is that I don't need to run my dedicated snow tires in the shoulder seasons when you do a lot of warm/dry road driving. I'll put the Blizzaks on around Thanksgiving and take them off in late March/Early April, instead of running them Halloween to Cinco De Mayo like I would if I ran a non 3PMSF tire in the summer.

[bean]

Early season?
I have had a couple pre-studded slip n slides that got the heart beating, but they were both early slicker snow.

Indy Pass, not long before it closed for the season. So Septemberish, maybe early October.

[Name Redacted]

Could be on to something here...

Make snow tires mandatory for I-70 travel -> fewer rental cars going up to the mountains -> more people taking shuttle vans -> fewer Jerrys wadding up in half an inch of snow -> fewer closures from light snowfall events.

In a perfect world maybe. More shuttles from DIA to Dillon and Vail. Then a fleet of rentals once they get here. All of those rentals have studded snows.

That one really bad day a few years ago they found that most of the accidents were caused by people with CO plates, with bald tires.

[summit]

Bottom line is: requiring snow tires or chains on all cars would be fucking stupid. You wanna get the tire industry to overhaul their rating system? Go for it. But requiring Nokians or Blizzaks on every car and truck is retarded. Talk to the rental car companies first.

You have been to Europe perhaps? Yea... you literally cannot rent a car in Switzerland without snow tires. Locals must carry chains if they dont swap to snows.
Quebec too...
Rules applies to people from the other provinces and countries driving in!

I don't buy this "it could never work!" crap. It could work. It can. People and the market will adjust. Rental car companies can charge and upsell... they'll probably make a profit. Others will take mass transit. Change is not as scary as the status quo.

BTW Why don't you just buy some BFG AT/KOs and be done with switching tires every season?

They are very nice, some say nicer than the Wrangler SA, although not quite as nice as a studless winter compound/supersiped... and I widen/upsize my summers (275 LT-C) for extra clearance/traction/toughness/life on trail and narrow/downsize my winters (P245) for better performance/handling/efficiency in winter conditiongs.