3d Printing ... carbon fiber

[hortence]

OK this is pretty cool and potentially game changing.

3D printing is spreading fast, but mostly with cheap plastic resins. This machine is different:



I wonder how the strength to weight ration compares to the high end carbon coming out of China?

Imagine designing your own cog set, or rims.

Wow.

[ZomblibulaX]

Yes! An AR-15 receiver that won't fall apart before I empty my banana clip into someone for cutting me off driving!

Imagine printing your own prosthetic limbs, or just a new one that's indistinguishable from the original.

3d-printed tissue with blood vessels

3d-printed ganglial/glial cells to be used to rebuild retinas, cure blindness

Organovo to sell 3d-printed liver starting this year

Some of those are a little dated, but 3d printing will change nearly every aspect of our lives in the next twenty-thirty years. There is every possibility we will be printing Thanksgiving turkeys within our lifetime, right on our countertops at home. Dovturduckenstrich, anyone?

[PNWbrit]

There is every possibility we will be printing Thanksgiving turkeys within our lifetime, right on our countertops at home. Dovturduckenstrich, anyone?

Just as long as they're gluten free.

[bsavery]

OK this is pretty cool and potentially game changing.

3D printing is spreading fast, but mostly with cheap plastic resins. This machine is different:
I wonder how the strength to weight ration compares to the high end carbon coming out of China?

Probably doesn't compare with the strength of manufactured carbon parts. They mentioned some point that it's basically carbon reinforced plastic (I'm guessing thermoplastic), not a laid up carbon resin construction. Think a mid 90's GT STS frame. Probably similar to a 3d printed part that it's good for rapid prototyping, but not as strong or as cheap as an actual manufactured part.

[summit]

Interesting... low cost and availability will have fascinating end market effects.

[krp8128]

Carbon fiber all comes down to fiber placement.

Not seeing how they can achieve a true 3D matrix by squirting carbon tow through a printhead.

[Eluder]

I think there are way simpler applications that bike shops could use 3D printing. How cool would it be to just print a new derailleur hanger instead of having 50 different ones in stock and never having the right one.

[PNWbrit]

How cool would it be to just print a new derailleur hanger

Derailleurs are cool now?

Surely the cool market would be printing really narrow handlebars and retro toe clips for the fixie crowd.

[Eluder]

heh, yeah not glamorous but a very practical application... because of that it probably won't happen.

[Incompetent Boob]

Probably doesn't compare with the strength of manufactured carbon parts. They mentioned some point that it's basically carbon reinforced plastic (I'm guessing thermoplastic), not a laid up carbon resin construction. Think a mid 90's GT STS frame. Probably similar to a 3d printed part that it's good for rapid prototyping, but not as strong or as cheap as an actual manufactured part.

Carbon fiber all comes down to fiber placement.

Not seeing how they can achieve a true 3D matrix by squirting carbon tow through a printhead.

"Carbon" is CFRP - Carbon Fibre Reinforced Plastic. There are differences in construction and thus strength, that's correct, but the word plastic alone doesn't suggest inferior strength.
Carbon fibre is typically not constucted as a true 3D matrix structure. Strands of carbon are woven together to create a thicker strands (for filament winding) or fabrics (for placing on a mould) which are then bonded together by the resin. Filament winding is a process which appears similar to the one shown, but it uses a mandrel around which the carbon strands are wound. Boeing uses it for the 787, it is strong.

Derailleurs are cool now?

Surely the cool market would be printing really narrow handlebars and retro toe clips for the fixie crowd.

The guys in the vid look like they have fixies for sure.

[Hugh Conway]

I think there are way simpler applications that bike shops could use 3D printing. How cool would it be to just print a new derailleur hanger instead of having 50 different ones in stock and never having the right one.

why have derailleurs at all?

[bsavery]

"Carbon" is CFRP - Carbon Fibre Reinforced Plastic. There are differences in construction and thus strength, that's correct, but the word plastic alone doesn't suggest inferior strength.
Carbon fibre is typically not constucted as a true 3D matrix structure. Strands of carbon are woven together to create a thicker strands (for filament winding) or fabrics (for placing on a mould) which are then bonded together by the resin. Filament winding is a process which appears similar to the one shown, but it uses a mandrel around which the carbon strands are wound. Boeing uses it for the 787, it is strong.

Filament winding does not imply they use thermoplastic or resin set though. I'm no materials expert but my understanding is with resin set carbons its easier to get all the excess resin out and get a good strength to weight ratio (vaccuum bagging and such). None of that going on here.

[PNWbrit]

why have derailleurs at all?

Because 3d printing a carbon fiber Sturmey Archer 3 speed is a real head scratcher?

[krp8128]

This thread is going to be full of "knowledge" soon....

[Hugh Conway]

This thread is going to be full of "knowledge" soon....

So drop the knowledge junior engineer

[bfree]

Filament winding does not imply they use thermoplastic or resin set though. I'm no materials expert but my understanding is with resin set carbons its easier to get all the excess resin out and get a good strength to weight ratio (vaccuum bagging and such). None of that going on here.

That is true, this method likely produces a lot of voids, a generally low fiber weight percentage, and poor thermal performance. It is still a step in the right direction and could be sufficient for many applications.

[Incompetent Boob]

Filament winding does not imply they use thermoplastic or resin set though. I'm no materials expert but my understanding is with resin set carbons its easier to get all the excess resin out and get a good strength to weight ratio (vaccuum bagging and such). None of that going on here.

Not sure what you're trying to say, there is always a resin - otherwise you just have fibre/cloth.

[krp8128]

So drop the knowledge junior engineer

Funny, that's not what my title is now nor when I was working in composites.

This tech is interesting, but not that novel. Essentially it is applying the pultrusion process to a 3D printer setup. These parts will be very stiff along one axis, but without the ability to control fiber direction along at least a 2nd axis they will bend (and likely snap) along the 90 degree. As someone else tired to point out, without compaction the fiber ratio will be less then ideal.

Filement winding uses a similar (probably the same, but these guys claim theirs is special) carbon tow that is wound around the mandrel. By controlling tension and orientation, stiffness and strength can be custom tailored to the individual part. This printer may be able to align fibers in a limited 2D fashion, but I am just not seeing the 3D capabilities or compaction.

Look up fiber crimp and/or 3D woven fibers. Press or autoclave grade prepreg uni fabric gives about the best fiber volume and compaction possible.

[stuckathuntermtn]

So why the fuck is carbon fiber stuff STILL so expensive? It's not a new thing. Hasn't been for a long time, yet it still really really expensive. What gives?
Production process? Quality control (a lot of failures with air in them?)?

[bfree]

Complicated manufacturing process. It actually has come down in price a lot, but still not exactly cheap.

[Hugh Conway]

Alfa 4C is a carbon fiber car at $55k. That's "cheaper". good for you krp, I'm glad you don't have a position that doesn't exist the real world. now relax.

[Unruly Baker]

People have been "3D printing" carbon fiber for 30+ years. It's called "automated fiber placement" or "advanced fiber placement", or just AFP. I've been a research and development engineer specializing in this technology for over 10 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_fiber_placement

What's could be interesting about this new "breakthrough" is cost. This new technique is appears cheap, but you also get what you pay for.

*Edited* Holy shit! never mind, they are charging $599/lb for the carbon material for this printer. That is full on fucking nuts. Even if this did print parts with similar performance to current aerospace/automotive/MTB primary structures, which it doesn't, the materials are 5+ times more expensive than what I use to build fighter jets. That is crazy. Your 5 lb. 3d printed carbon bike just ran you $3000. *Edited*

People are not going to flying on parts off a printer in someone's garage/office any time soon. Typical AFP machines are millions of $$ and require lots of other capital equipment to finish processing the parts (large temperature and humidity controlled clean rooms, complex Invar or composite cure mandrels, autoclaves, NDI machines, CNC machining centers, etc....). A single manufacturing cell can easily run $10-15 million. We've spent nearly $60 million in my facility on this stuff in the last 5 years to supply parts for Boeing, Airbus and Lockheed. Definitely not a cheap process to do correctly.

Also, for the record, the Boeing 787 fuselage is not filament wound, it is fiber placed, 2 very different processes. The wings are made using "automated tape laying" ATL, similar to AFP, but only feeds one wide (6" or 12") wide band of prepreg, where AFP machines feed anywhere from 12 to 32 strips of prepreg "slit tape" at one time.

Lots of this stuff in SLC, UT. Good for ski bum engineers and technicians that like real jobs.

[ZomblibulaX]

Well, of course its Empire...
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Worlds-...+February+2014

[creaky fossil]

people seem to like thinking of 3-D printing along the same lines of what was SciFi fiction when I was a laddie, they imagine something similar to a little pill generated by your spaceship's wondrous technomarvel device, a little pill that is no bigger than a fish oil gelcap, which gives all the nutrition you need for a day's hard labor/exercise, tastes like a fine sirloin steak with a big Idaho potato lathered with butter salt & pepper, meets all your body's taste needs as well as its nutritional ones. I'm not jumping on the 3-D printing fanboi wagon until they can 3-D print a good burrito.

[scrublover]

people seem to like thinking of 3-D printing along the same lines of what was SciFi fiction when I was a laddie, they imagine something similar to a little pill generated by your spaceship's wondrous technomarvel device, a little pill that is no bigger than a fish oil gelcap, which gives all the nutrition you need for a day's hard labor/exercise, tastes like a fine sirloin steak with a big Idaho potato lathered with butter salt & pepper, meets all your body's taste needs as well as its nutritional ones. I'm not jumping on the 3-D printing fanboi wagon until they can 3-D print a good burrito.

Where is Willy Wonka when you need him, eh?