12/26 Fatality on Pucker Face, just beyond the JHMR ropes

[FussyDutchman]

Incredibly sobering and powerful Ocean and Schralp! Condolences on your loss and thoughts and prayers to Mike's family and to all that called him a friend.

[Oceanman]

Lindahl, great tools to slow things down and break the group dynamic force. Thank you

Tons of awesome vibes from everyone else. Y'all have a great weekend. Enjoy the pow and be safe

[altabrig]

I never met Mike, but have heard wonderful things about him from a family member who I work with. The loss is unimaginable.

Thank you for taking the time to educate with your write up OceanMan.

Thoughts are with the family. Deepest condolences to all.

[SchralphMacchio]

Bump, I wrote an article for The Avalanche Review about the accident that just got published and posted. I sincerely hope that it is both informative, and also valuable to the rest of you folks out there, for your friends, etc.
http://www.americanavalancheassociat...32_4_Cover.pdf
(See Page 20 for the case study and article, the other one on Page 18 is an opinion piece by Blase Reardon)

Many thanks to homemadesalsa and the rest of the Jackson community - everyone has been so supportive through the aftermath of our accident. Thoughts and vibes to all of those affected by avalanche accidents this season. Fingers crossed for nothing more than "close calls" for the rest of the season, in Wydaho and the rest of the West.

[adrenalated]

Bump, I wrote an article for The Avalanche Review about the accident that just got published and posted. I sincerely hope that it is both informative, and also valuable to the rest of you folks out there, for your friends, etc.
http://www.americanavalancheassociat...32_4_Cover.pdf
(See Page 20 for the case study and article, the other one on Page 18 is an opinion piece by Blase Reardon)

Many thanks to homemadesalsa and the rest of the Jackson community - everyone has been so supportive through the aftermath of our accident. Thoughts and vibes to all of those affected by avalanche accidents this season. Fingers crossed for nothing more than "close calls" for the rest of the season, in Wydaho and the rest of the West.

You did an incredible job on that article. Thank you. I will re-read it again to make sure I process everything in it.

[babybear]

Hey schralp- Thanks for your debriefing, and since you keep putting things out there I guess it is still up for discussion. I think the main lesson to be learned here is being slightly missed.

I'm sure both you and OM are suffering in your own way and I wish you peace, but I'd like to see you guys admit that egos were the driving factor that day bc, while you allude to it, you do not say that and I think that is THE BEST lesson to come out of this tragic event and to help Mike's legacy and others from similar losses.

You reference adding more 'standard practices', but you all knew the basic standard practices learned in your avi 1 and 2 and yet chose to ignore them or simply allowed yourselves to blinded by the exact thing that are drilled into our brains in the classes to not get blinded by
What do you think the benefit of adding more standard practices are if experienced backcountry people, as you describe yourself, already did not take into account the very first and most basic principles learned in avi classes in the face the red flags? Let’s focus on putting into practice what you already know until it’s like second nature rather than trying to put into practice some more standards for after an event. The focus should be not letting it happen in the first place.

It seems like you want this to be a learning experience for others so let’s recognize that the #1 factor that day- group dynamic is a fun buzzword but let’s call it what it is- ego. If you want to truly make a difference with writing about your experience then help other guys to simply and straight forwardly recognize when the ego starts to drive you and the group and how to get out of that mode and back to focusing on those standard practices you have been taught.
Don’t rely on fancy biz euphuisms and let’s just KISS…..bc you guys all honestly seem like smart, great, conscientious guys and yet you were completely blinded by the pow fever in the face of several obvious red flags.

[babybear]

And re: your conclusion "Getting back into the backcountry and "trying to make better habits"
As good ol yoda say "Do or do not. There is no try"

[teleee]

Hey schralp- Thanks for your debriefing, and since you keep putting things out there I guess it is still up for discussion. I think the main lesson to be learned here is being slightly missed.

I'm sure both you and OM are suffering in your own way and I wish you peace, but I'd like to see you guys admit that egos were the driving factor that day bc, while you allude to it, you do not say that and I think that is THE BEST lesson to come out of this tragic event and to help Mike's legacy and others from similar losses.

You reference adding more 'standard practices', but you all knew the basic standard practices learned in your avi 1 and 2 and yet chose to ignore them or simply allowed yourselves to blinded by the exact thing that are drilled into our brains in the classes to not get blinded by
What do you think the benefit of adding more standard practices are if experienced backcountry people, as you describe yourself, already did not take into account the very first and most basic principles learned in avi classes in the face the red flags? Let’s focus on putting into practice what you already know until it’s like second nature rather than trying to put into practice some more standards for after an event. The focus should be not letting it happen in the first place.

It seems like you want this to be a learning experience for others so let’s recognize that the #1 factor that day- group dynamic is a fun buzzword but let’s call it what it is- ego. If you want to truly make a difference with writing about your experience then help other guys to simply and straight forwardly recognize when the ego starts to drive you and the group and how to get out of that mode and back to focusing on those standard practices you have been taught.
Don’t rely on fancy biz euphuisms and let’s just KISS…..bc you guys all honestly seem like smart, great, conscientious guys and yet you were completely blinded by the pow fever in the face of several obvious red flags.

You keep saying it was their ego, I am not sure ego is the right word for it. Ego is the sense of self. I think in a group dynamic given the powder fever ego is the last thing that is given attention. And should quite possibly be the first thing that is addressed. Having been in several groups where the dynamics were clearly group driven and the individuals gave in to the power of the group I certainly can't point my finger since I have fallen into the same trap. I. This case individual ego would have been a good thing and may have prevented them from venturing into an area where I could be willing to bet non of them would have ventured had they been solo. The opposite of "ego" (in my oh so humble opinion).

[stradissimo]

You keep saying it was their ego, I am not sure ego is the right word for it. Ego is the sense of self. I think in a group dynamic given the powder fever ego is the last thing that is given attention. [... snip ...] The opposite of "ego" (in my oh so humble opinion).

I'm going to take a shot at this one. Baby Bear can correct me if I'm smoking crack.

It seems like Baby Bear is using ego not in the Sigmund-Frued-psychobabble sense, but in the synonym-with-pride sense. Used in that way, it has near antonyms of disgrace, dishonor, humiliation, and timidity.

When you're standing at the top of a gnar line, are you going to ski it, or back down in humiliation, like a disgraceful, timid pussy? If your fear of looking like a pussy overrides your fear of kicking off an avalanche, your ego, or pride, is making the decision.

[neck beard]

Gnarly well known test-piece lines stroke males egos more often than not. And that emotion, often difficult to recognise, overcomes common sense and practical training whilst at the same time inflates our sense of personal experience. Good post, BB.

[Hugh Conway]

You keep saying it was their ego, I am not sure ego is the right word for it. Ego is the sense of self. I think in a group dynamic given the powder fever ego is the last thing that is given attention. And should quite possibly be the first thing that is addressed. Having been in several groups where the dynamics were clearly group driven and the individuals gave in to the power of the group I certainly can't point my finger since I have fallen into the same trap. I. This case individual ego would have been a good thing and may have prevented them from venturing into an area where I could be willing to bet non of them would have ventured had they been solo. The opposite of "ego" (in my oh so humble opinion).

You don't think "ego" drives most skiing groups? Find it hard to believe someone can spend so much time here on TGR and not see ego-driving most things.

[babybear]

And guys I don't want my comments to be taken too harshly- when I look back up it's fairly clinical sounding but I wanted to address a couple things nagging at me as I've been thinking about this stuff a lot. I keep seeing this stuff happen and it totally bums me out.

Yea telee- you are probably right that ego is not really the perfect word I was going for and ego does tend to come off as negative in this sense, which I don't necessarily want.
Stradissimo yes- thank you for helping me out there- that's what I was meaning.

I like that the guys have been vocal about what happened that day- thanks for sharing. But I get the sense from the amount of writing you've done that you guys want something better to come out of this.
Shralp talks about 'root cause countermeasures" and I honestly think that if we can isolate exactly what it was in that group dynamic going on that we can learn more and be better.
I know that pucker face is a line to 'check off the list' so to say and I believe that came into play within the group dynamic. Maybe I'm totally off base on that but I doubt it. We all are similar animals us ski lovers.
You don't have to be 'egotistical' in the standard sense to have an ego. I think it is more within yourself

So I just wish there was a go-to to give someone the confidence to speak up that is questioning a situation at all. All the guys seemed nervous about it and I know we've all been there where we weren't sure. Maybe it's listen to your gut campaign. Maybe things'll never change and I'm just getting older and wishing people were more careful with their lives.

[Oceanman]

Baby bear, all good points. Pick up a copy of April 's Avalanche Review if you'd like an in-depth, human factor breakdown

[Oceanman]

And to answer your question. I will admit that my sense of comfort/confidence (ego, if you will) was too high, which led me to drop the ball when it came to concrete decisions. Tell me about your BC riding when you we're 26 years of age? I bet you might have made mistakes back then?

[_Aaron_]

Bump, I wrote an article for The Avalanche Review about the accident that just got published and posted. I sincerely hope that it is both informative, and also valuable to the rest of you folks out there, for your friends, etc.
http://www.americanavalancheassociat...32_4_Cover.pdf
(See Page 20 for the case study and article, the other one on Page 18 is an opinion piece by Blase Reardon)

Many thanks to homemadesalsa and the rest of the Jackson community - everyone has been so supportive through the aftermath of our accident. Thoughts and vibes to all of those affected by avalanche accidents this season. Fingers crossed for nothing more than "close calls" for the rest of the season, in Wydaho and the rest of the West.

Well written. Good to see something like that come out of this.

[Duffman]

Excellent read. Well written and comes off as appropriately analytical not making excuses. Thanks for sharing

[TEXASS]

Alex, sorry for the loss of your friend and the feelings you must deal with now. I cannot compair my avalanche experience with yours as we all walked away, but I want to go over the similarities and the way things go.
I have toured with Alex and can say He isnt the cowboy type and when I finally put two and two together and realized you were part of this I had flashbacks from my Wyoming Incident

Mine (ours) was at Togwootee pass . I was part of a much larger group ( 11 total) roaming around the back side of Angle mountain. I was from out of town and didnt have a lot of touring under my belt and was trailing behind .
Each time we grouped together for a drop myself and SanFrantastico would drag up about the time everyone was almost done with their transition. We didnt have much input on group decisions because of our slowness. Not enough to get left behind,but enough to not be counted.
We had dropped an old crownline on a steep slope and afterwards while having lunch the whole flat area we were in dropped about six inches whith a very large whump.
Having toured in the Sierra and San Bernadino mountains I had heard about 'whumping" but had never actually heard it.
This was another sign scremingat us to get the hell out of their.

The last settlement during lunch did catch the attention of the locals and it was mentioned we should pick our way out of the valley we were in very carefuly. We all started skinning up a farly mellow slope, then the groups stopped and decided to split into six and five. My partner and I were the lsat to arrive and just joined group two (we made five) . The two of us had no Idea what we were about to do, thinking we were inching our way out.
The guy we were following wanted to climb up to a small rockband for another drop.
As He approched a rockband the slope gave way and SanFrantastico and one other guy in the group were gone in a flash.

Luckily both guys ended up partially buried and noone got hurt.

I wanted to point out

we too were out of our usual area
touring with people we had just met
in unknow terrain
bringing up the rear so missing out on the group desicion
and followed into a slide

Sense that day I have turned back twice. Both time at Rogers pass.


I would turn back again if I had to choose agtain. I have ridden much powder sense, so no loss.

my advice is to listen to the slowest guys in the group if you happen to be the defacto leader and if your the slow guy raise hell if you need too but make sure your voice is heard

Thank you for having the corrage to write up everything. I know that part was tough

[dishwasher-dave]

Bump, I wrote an article for The Avalanche Review about the accident that just got published and posted. I sincerely hope that it is both informative, and also valuable to the rest of you folks out there, for your friends, etc.
http://www.americanavalancheassociat...32_4_Cover.pdf
(See Page 20 for the case study and article, the other one on Page 18 is an opinion piece by Blase Reardon)

Many thanks to homemadesalsa and the rest of the Jackson community - everyone has been so supportive through the aftermath of our accident. Thoughts and vibes to all of those affected by avalanche accidents this season. Fingers crossed for nothing more than "close calls" for the rest of the season, in Wydaho and the rest of the West.

Just wanted to chime in and recommend folks check out the TAR article by Shralph (and the rest of the TAR too). Very well written and honest self evaluation. I recommend reading it carefully and spending some time pondering what is described.

[babybear]

Baby bear, all good points. Pick up a copy of April 's Avalanche Review if you'd like an in-depth, human factor breakdown

But I did read it and that's why I came to what I'm still asking above. In fact I referenced a few different points from it. Yes, it's nicely written and gives a lot of detail but 'Group dynamic' is still too broad. It's not narrowed down enough

[Oceanman]

Ok babybear, let me break down our biggest take aways and the exercises we have adopted since. I'll try to keep things short and to the point but some personal detail should follow.

1. Assign a group leader on every day skiing the BC to ensure communication is on-going, throughout the group as a whole. This role can be tough because the leader must often play devil's advocate and ask deep questions sometimes individually in order to leave no stone unturned.

2. Assess the stoke and comfort. To me this was a big factor in our group:
- great energy the day after Christmas
- new partners who were really clicking on a social level
- big snow that had for the most part held up in quality
- a somewhat well settling snowpack with 48 hour given to release and/or settle
- looking down an untouched line of blower turns and really fun/challenging terrain

All of these factors led me and most of the others to let our stoke, individual and collectively, get the best of us. The adrenaline and other chemicals released here blinded me from the real questions and analysis that I should have been focused on.

3. Head out every day like your going out for "a walk in the woods" but also, do your homework on possible lines/terrain. It's important to keep an open mind and stay away from tasked focused objectives, in our case the un-tracked pucker face and the cornice cut. We showed no respect to the mountains that day when it comes to studying them and how they act. If I had done some research I would have found that pucker historically slides early season. Yes, we should have honed in on the unsupported slope with cliff bands/weaknesses/sweet spots using our avalanche eyes. Unfortunately I slipped up on this. With limited experience out the gates of JHMR, all I really knew about pucker and the rest of Cody was that it was aesthetically pleasing and that on any given "moderate" day, 48 hours after a storm, people got after it with tons of lines as evidence.

3. Keep groups to 4 or smaller.

4. Start small with new partners and slowly build a working relationship.

5. Watch out for "moderate" ratings and pay attention to every detail on the bulletin. These days we tend to go straight to the avalanche problem, then check out the rating. Look for trends in avalanche activity. Christmas night I read the 5pm forecast and basically stopped reading after they spoke of dropping the rating to moderate. Had I kept reading and focused on the details I would have read that a similar aspect/terrain on Taylor had slid. But I was at a Christmas party and kept the iphone surfing to a minimal. That morning I checked the avalanche event map and did not see the Taylor slide.

6. Ski smart and extra cautious with persistent weaknesses. It's almost impossible to judge whether these persistent problems will release and when they do, equally difficult to manage one if caught.

7. Don't let other groups, guides or professionals (social proof) give you a false sense of security.

8. Treat every line like it is guilty until proven innocent. If your cutting a cornice as your only piece of evidence get out of there. Being a big tourer who spends most of my time in GTNP where I can assess snowpack as I ascend, the "side country" through me for a loop that day with my limited beta on the slope and it's snowpack. Sure, I had spent the 24th observing instabilities on 25 short and the 25th at the village speaking to ski patrol about mitigation efforts and mountain guides about observations but what I missed was my usual "marination" if you will, where one spends countless hours ascending a slope, feeling the snow and then dissecting the line.

9. If plans change ask why. That day our decision to look at pucker instead of no shadow or 4 shadow would have had only one answer: because the other two have seen a lot of traffic and pucker is UN-TRACKED. Not the best reason to change objectives...

10. Slow is swift, and swift is fast.

11. Assess worst case scenario if it slides and make sure everyone is committed.

12. Discuss the slope, letting each partner point out his thoughts on weaknesses and or strengths. Where are possible islands of safety if it rips?

13. Come up with a solid search and rescue plan for each and every line if something goes wrong. In our case, the quickest way was to billygoat straight down the rocks. After no visuals of Mike, I assessed hang fire and chose to descend pucker. Luckily I had the help of Dave Miller at the toe of the avalanche as I worked the top of the debris looking for visuals while doing a grid beacon search. If we were in the park outside help probably wouldn't have been there.

14. Most importantly, review these takeaways before, during and after skiing with your partners. If you discuss all of these in depth and everyone is included, then you have done your best and only risk tolerance is left.

Hope this helps babybear. Y'all have a great wknd!

[Oceanman]

And if you want me to touch on the "ego" piece your so stuck on, I'll say that yes we were/are a group of young skiers who like to push our skiing abilities on extreme terrain. Everyone of us has our own risk tolerance and it's hard to mitigate that other then choosing your partners wisely for the snowpack and terrain you plan to adventure out in. Cheers

[Hugh Conway]

And if you want me to touch on the "ego" piece your so stuck on, I'll say that yes we were/are a group of young skiers who like to push our skiing abilities on extreme terrain. Everyone of us has our own risk tolerance and it's hard to mitigate that other then choosing your partners wisely for the snowpack and terrain you plan to adventure out in. Cheers

Errr - did you mean to write it that way? Surely you mean choose the terrain to fit the snowpack and hazard?

14 bullet points to review before each run? good lord, no

[Oceanman]

Yeah, of course you want to match terrain to the snowpack and hazard. I was trying to look at it from a partner/risk tolerance POV.

It would be cool if y'all spent less time picking apart any small errors and looked at it from a more positive and constructive perspective. But I guess I might me in the wrong place for that....

[Oceanman]

And yes, 14 bullets before, during and after each run. It's a lot I know. But what if your car mechanic or doctor skipped procedures?

[Hugh Conway]

And yes, 14 bullets before, during and after each run. It's a lot I know. But what if your car mechanic or doctor skipped procedures?

People don't want a 14 point bullet list. There are safety cards out there, now. Like pilots use for preflight checks.They rarely sell and rarely get used. If it works for you, great, just pointing out the issues. That's me being positive and constructive - redirect elsewhere.