Anyone Else Not Get Along With Custom Footbeds?

[Kevo]

---Disclaimer- yes, I'm geeking out and this is long winded, but I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this or can shed some light---

A recent conversation got me thinking about the fact that I stopped using custom footbeds a few seasons ago.

I previously used a pair of custom cork footbeds made by THE bootfitter in Boulder. I have no doubt that he does great work, but they never worked for me in several different pairs of boots and caused a massive amount of pain in my feet and legs.

Admittedly, I have bad feet for a skier. My feet pronate, I have an extremely low volume heal and ankle with a medium width forefoot- a pretty bad combo. My arches are medium in height. After growing up never using a custom footbed, I got one made about 4 years ago and put it inside the Scarpa Spirit 4s I was using at the time. It caused a lot of pain in my foot and (I still don't know how) made my calves a quads almost seize up in pain while skiing. I ditched the Spirits for some Titans a few years ago and molded some intuitions in them.

Again, same thing. Almost unbearable pain in my feet while skiing and additional pain in my legs. I can best describe the leg pain as a seizing pain- like at the end of a big powder day, but multiplied 10x and starting on the first or second run of the day.

At the beginning of last year, I ditched the footbed and never looked back. My feet are happy, my legs have never had that problem again and I'm skiing better than I have in years. I currently ski with a thin bontex shim in each liner and L pads to lock my heal in place.

I've thought about the usual suspect here- the footbed took up too much volume, causing pain in my feet, etc. This could have been amplified by the fact that I have to crank the boots down in order to keep my heals in place. Perhaps my foot was raised out of the heal pocket, etc.

I think that it is a much bigger and more complex issue though. I remember that in the summer that I had the footbeds made I started using them for hiking after a friend had mentioned that they were great for keeping your feet supported on longer hikes. On one really long day while climbing a couple 14ers, I developed a really bad pain in my knee- so much that I almost didn't make it back to the car. I limped for the better part of two weeks after that. I stopped using the footbeds for hiking after that, but didn't think much of it and hadn't put it together that the footbeds were to blame. I just figured I had pushed too hard or was getting old and having issues with past knee injuries.

My theory is that by locking my foot in an immovable position, my feet are and ankles are unable to make micro adjustments for things like fine balancing and subtle athletic movements that I would perform while skiing or hiking. This causes the large muscle groups in my legs to do A LOT more work. Yes, my feet roll to the inside, but changing that with a footbed and locking my feet in place totally throws of the geometry of my legs.

After searching and reading other threads I found this thread with the below quote, which I think pretty accurately explains what I've experienced.

I've got Conform'ables and it looks like they are made of fiberglass. I've had green and black (moldable) superfeet and corks. The Conform'ables are not cheap, but the best IMO and I have very high arches. I don't like the corks because they just lock your foot into one position and you have to use your leg muscles more. With Conform'ables or similar, they provide plenty of support but allow your feet to do what they are made to do (absorb shock and make small corrections to balance). I have a background in biomechanics, kinesiology, and understand the complexities of the foot fairly well (at least I think I do). I know people swear by corks, but I firmly believe you can make more athletic movements with a little give in your arch support. If you keep the bones of the foot locked into one position, you can't use the smaller proprioceptive muscles to maintain balance/posture, and every bump or impact will be absorbed by your large muscle groups, tiring you out faster. Good luck!

PS-Could be placebo effect, but I really noticed a difference in turn initiation and making dynamic adjustments with my new footbeds. I felt more "connected" to the skis.

The reason I'm bringing this up in its own thread is to see if there are any other people that have experienced similar issues. It seems like everyone I talk to is so into footbeds. "You HAVE to have a footbed. It is an absolute MUST for your foundation as a skier".

Am I alone here with really strange anatomy that somehow doesn't do well with footbeds? Is this a known issue in the bootfitting community for certain types of feet? Is there some closeted group of skiers secretly abandoning their footbeds and the hivemind that footbeds are a must have in favor of pain free skiing? Is there some amazing benefit that I'm missing by not trying Conform'ables and walking away from footbeds as a whole?

[auvgeek]

I'm not technical enough on the details about cork vs conform'able footbeds, so I'm not much help. But a random thought: perhaps you're missing dorsiflexion in subtalor neutral? If your foot needs to evert to achieve most of its ROM, then I could see the lack of ROM with a footbed maybe overworking your larger muscles.

I don't think that quote you linked says that footbeds aren't good—it says that he prefers a less-rigid footbed than cork. It's really a debate about a rigidity of the footbed.

As far as some amazing benefit you're missing...probably not. But the fact is you're locking your soft, malleable foot into a a rigid plastic shell so any alignment errors are going to be magnified. Off-axis loading of your heel cord = bone spurs. Overpronation and hitting the outside of the shell = bunion on the 5th met head. Is it *necessary*? Only you can tell. (I'm sure you've heard enough success stories that I won't tell you how much of a difference footbeds made for me.)

PS. Not a doc or a bootfitter, so what do I know?

[chewski]

I love, love, love the two surefoot custom foamed liners (older conformable and newer in house versions) that i've had. They have been the only remedy that worked for my insanely pronounced ankle bones. I have a narrow foot and narrow shin... But huuuge ankle bones. So any boot with a low enough volume throughout (lange foot here) has pinched my ankles like crazy, and no punch, grind, shim has worked. Cannot imagine being without my custom liners ever again...

On the other hand, i have hated both of the orthotics (made ten years apart) that i had to purchase to get the liner (yeah that's surefoot deal, but i travel a lot and they are EVERYWHERE if i need adjustments and i have been decently satisfied with them overall). Even after tuning out the areas that the orthotic is not allowing my foot to sit flat (thinning orthotic a little here, punching the shell a little there), i just do not feel any benefit to the orthotic. In fact, the only foot pain i ever experience with my custom boots anymore is along the entire bottom of my foot. Sometimes it's okay, and sometimes the soles of my feet feel like they are on fire, but it never feels like an improvement over no orthotic to me. This has been the case with both my orthotics (i doubt they were both made with my foot in the completely wrong alignment). This is the exact opposite of the pain i had in stock liners/footbeds (ankles rubbing shells, actual soles of feet feel great).

I used to run 1500 miles a year in cheap, light $60 running shoes, and never found the need for any $100+ cushioned, motion-controlled, un-de-anti-pronationed support. I just don't think my foot wants to be forced into a "corrected" position. I am about to give up on orthotics myself

[onenerdykid]

For starters, if you are not used to using a footbed and then you jump into your ski boots with a "custom" footbed, your feet will hate you. You cannot go from having no support under your foot to having lots of medial, lateral, and transverse arch support. You will experience cramping, burning, knee pain, lots of other things because now your body is in a certain alignment that it never had before. No matter what footbed you use, it is always a good idea to get used to it before you go skiing. Whether that is wearing your boots+footbeds every night for 20 minutes or wearing them in your street shoes, you need to adapt to the new structure under your foot.

Personally, I do not think Superfeet Kork beds are all that great for very flexible, low volume feet. Over the last 12 years, I have seen them cause more issues than solve. So part of this is the fact that you are not used to wearing a footbed, and part of it (may be) that this particular version of a custom footbed is not the right one for you.

The reason people/boot-fitters talk so highly about footbeds is because 99.99% of the time they fix so many fit issues and even if you don't have any issues, they make the boot fit and perform even better (provided the footbed is the right one for you!).

Think of it this way- you just bought a new fancy ski boot, loaded with the best features and performance out there but your flexible, low volume foot is twisting and rolling around inside it. You are definitely not getting all of the performance out of your boot that you could be. It's like trying to drive a Porsche with Buick steering- you aren't getting your money's worth. Footbeds create the ultimate interface between your flexible foot and the rigid hunk of plastic called a ski boot that they are stuffed into. Without them, generally speaking, you are not having as much fun as you could be.

Could your foot be so sensitive and hyper-flexible that a footbed is just not an option? Sure, that is a possibility. But most likely you just need to find the right one for your foot & boot combination.

[rod9301]

Many times the footbeds you get in a ski shop will not fix severe problems.
Go to a doctor and have him make footbeds.
When doctors do them, they make a mold with your foot totally non weight bearing.
In a ski shop the footned is molded in a fully or partially weight bearing position.(you stand on your feet)

So your foot is already deformed by your weight.

It's convenient, because you get your footbeds immediately, instead of waiting a couple of weeks.
But the results are inferior.
Plus your insurance will cover the doctor made footbeds.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using TGR Forums

[Ivan Oder]

I've been on the same pair of InstaPrint footbeds in an Intuition power wrap liner for about six years.

These are the type that are created with partial weight, ie sitting down.

You have to let your feet get used to them, when they start to hurt take em out and go back to the old footbed for a little while or just stop skiing for a bit.

Always happens at the beginning of the season after a summer of not having them.

Most likely your feet have never been in a proper anatomical position and this is forcing you to use muscles and bones in a way you aren't used to.

If your feet feel okay at the beginning of the day with no hot spots or aches, then chances are the footbed is good and you just need to ease into it.

Try a pair of the thinnest socks you can find too. No snowboard or hiking socks. I can't use my footbeds with anything else, the thick socks mess up the fit.

Another important thing is to consider is the boot liner and the shell, some liners aren't designed to work with footbeds that take up a lot of space and some shells may need

to be punched to accommodate the new position of your foot. Intuition liners can help here too.

A couple other things I thought of after submitting this:

You mentioned that you have a narrow heel, are your buckles too tight to compensate for this?
Perhaps a new liner or some modifications to your existing liner (wrap around pads above the heel) would help you capture the heel and loosen those buckles.

Tognar makes some pads for various heel problems here if you want to try some quick fixing, maybe start there if it's a known issue.

http://www.tognar.com/boot-fitting-p...eets-1-8-foam/

Footbeds that support your arch will naturally raise your instep so you shouldn't be buckling the lower two buckles as tight as you would without them. You don't want
to crush your arches on the footbed. You may be able to get away with this with the stock footbed which in most boots are just crushable fabric/felt pads.

If your feet are cold and sore, feel like they're falling asleep, painful, you have your buckles too tight and/or socks too thick.

If your quads are hurting, that might be a form issue, ie too far in the backseat. Are you pressuring the cuffs of your boots as much as possible?

Sore calves is normal and means you're stacked above and pressuring your toes, which is a good thing - and maybe a new thing that the footbeds are allowing to you do.

It should go away as you get stronger and develop those muscles more.

A good bootfitter should be able to measure your legs and feet and find the right modifications needed.

Sometimes you can just be really unlucky and have all the wrong combinations of shell/liner/footbed/everything for your anatomy and level of skiing.

[mntlion]

footbeds work, and feel good for most people, but like everything in life, what works for one (or most) will not work for all.

Also, just because one footbed has not worked, doesn't meen that ALL footbeds will not work.

also takes a bit of time to get use to wearing a footbed

Its important to see, and use, what works for you.

footbed and orthotic used interchangeably here

[Kevo]

Interesting thoughts.

A couple notes from my experience-

-My footbeds were molded non weighted (vacuum bag style)
-I tried to use them for the better part of 3 years, so I'm not sure that I can agree with the idea that my legs and feet just needed time to get used to them.
-My legs do not hurt at all without a footbed. I can comfortably ski 20k+ vertical feet per day without a footbed. Even after years of using the footbed, my legs would start to seize up in the morning.

I think that I take issue with the idea that all feet without footbeds are in an anatomically incorrect position. I've spent my life hiking, climbing and skiing and have never had any. I really think that not being able to use smaller proprioceptive muscles for balance is what caused the majority of my issues.

My ankles are extremely flexible. I can go all the way over onto one leg with a side lunge and keep my weighted foot's heal down without any problem. Most people I work out with can't do this easily and have to work for months to get to the point where they can. I think I use this flexibility in my day to day life walking around and even hiking or climbing.

When I ski, I can feel myself pressuring the inside and outside of my foot inside the boot to get the skis to roll over on edge. My foot isn't moving inside the boot, but I am able to ever so slightly roll my foot to either side to finely control the edge of the ski. In doing this, I'm either ever so slightly lifting my arch to pressure my 5th metatarsal to roll to the outside edge or slightly depressing my arch to pressure and control my inside edge.

IME, footbeds do not allow me to do this in a natural way, so I end up having to make large movements with my knees and legs to get my skis to perform the way I want.

But a random thought: perhaps you're missing dorsiflexion in subtalor neutral? If your foot needs to evert to achieve most of its ROM, then I could see the lack of ROM with a footbed maybe overworking your larger muscles.

You may be onto something here, but I'm not sure I fully understand you, Auvgeek. Are you saying that when I stand neutrally, my knees might not be as far forward as most people and that in order to move I need to do the equivalent of lifting my toes?Can you please explain more about what you mean?

[steved]

Just $.01....
Sounds like a too-big a boot(shellsize). What did the bootguy say when you did the shell-fit?(take out liner and step in..w/bare feet touching front of toebox). How much room between heel & back of boot?
A competent bootfitter can stretch or grind out a shell's midfoot/toebox...making it comfortable in a 1hr appointment.
Remember the bootguy can always make more space.. or maybe try a shop doing Intuitions(more flexible).
If you have the rigid [fore]foot(with dorsiflexion)...you definitely want a change!...makes all the difference in the world! Life will look(& feel) a lot different!;-)

[Kevo]

Just $.01....
Sounds like a too-big a boot(shellsize). What did the bootguy say when you did the shell-fit?(take out liner and step in..w/bare feet touching front of toebox). How much room between heel & back of boot?
A competent bootfitter can stretch or grind out a shell...making it comfortable in a 30min appointment.
Remember the bootguy can always make more space....
$.01..

I've thought about that, but boot guy shell fit me and put me in this boot. I asked about going a size smaller before purchasing, and he highly recommended against it. I've been thinking I'm going to go a shell size smaller and get the lowest volume boots that will do the job next time I buy boots though. At the time I bought my current boots (Titans) they were the lowest volume narrowest AT boot on the market.

What does a slightly bigger than optimal boot have to do with the issues with the insoles though?

[steved]

At least, you owe it to yourself to try a shellsize down & do a shell-fit test before anything else. Imho more flexible footbeds will seal the deal, but you never know about the cork ones(although I can almost guarantee you'll luv something like Intuitions..fwiw)!...get into a smaller shell and your feet won't feel the need to squirm around and grip(from micro-sliding around inside boot). Feet should just lay out flat(& relaxed) as comfortable.
$.01...mainly coming from my alignment...might've missed some stuff..y/n?

[auvgeek]

Basically this idea:

[Gobig21]

Try a heel lift and a instaprint/ conform able style footbed...

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I have long used footbeds in my boots. They've felt fine. Functional. I've had a few different pairs made by reputable bootfitters. The last pair was made with me sitting down, with some sort of vacuum doohickey.

I now use no footbeds in my AT boots. I couldn't possibly ski my Maestrale RS's (which have a couple punches in the right boot) with my footbeds, as there isn't enough volume in the shell. I almost returned my orange Maestrales (which I later left at a trail head and never saw again) before skiing them, because I couldn't fit my footbeds. Thank god I didn't. My feet have never felt so good at the end of a day as with these boots. I can ski all day, then walk around for a few more hours without complaint. I seldom use my alpine boots anymore. For my next pair of alpine boots I hope to find a similar fit without footbeds.

I'm not claiming the slightest expertise, or that anyone else should abandon footbeds. But for me, letting my foot work and flex a little more (albeit inside boot with a very snug fit) has been awesome.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Tl;dr
Flatten the front of the footbed.

[spook]

i found out something interesting and barely related that madvres will undoubtedly point out that 4 years ago i told the same story, but i haven't had my feet measured in years. 10-10.5 for 30 years. then i go into rei and they measure me and i do have the total length required for a 10.5, the problem is that the distance from my heel to the ball of my big toe is that of a size 12, which means that when i use a size 10.5 footbed or insole the arch is in the wrong spot causing all sorts of problems with a high arch and high instep.

just thought i'd throw that in there as i start to get slightly nervous before bikram.

[XXX-er]

YMMV but I have forgot my footbeds which I didn't discover till I put boots on in the p-lot at the hill ... I can't get a ski edge in without a footbed

been on soles in ski boots and customs for many years

[icelanticskier]

^^^^^^^whiney little fucking tattle tale

rog

[gregL]

Lumping all custom footbeds together is a mistake. There are several different molding systems, and many theories on how to best use the equipment and post them once molded. Most shops only use one method, and the skill and judgement of the bootfitter is key to getting a good result - it's not a hard science.

Getting them made by a podiatrist or podorthist doesn't guarantee that they'll work better for your foot or your skiing either, though they'll be called orthotics and probably cost more. On the plus side, your insurance may cover them.

Sounds like your feet don't agree with the Superfeet vacuum results, but they aren't the only game in town.

[XXX-er]

Ah, so have you decided to quit maligning the gay folk rog?

I for one am glad you have decided to leave those folks out of your problems with latent aggression

[icelanticskier]

no just mixing it up, dooshbag. no aggression. rog is laughing.

rog

[XXX-er]

^^^^^^^whiney little fucking tattle tale

rog

well I supose I could shoot the nice folk at Intuition a linky and they would wonder who this dealer is that is telling TGR that Intuiton fucks up their new liners and doesnt know how to fit them and appears to make homophobic slurs?

but actualy anybody you have ever dissed or who thinks poorly of you could shoot them a link ?

or actualy the fitter on staff might read this thread ?

but you haven't done anything wrong so no worries right ?

[neck beard]

OP

Your feet sound like my feet. Though my feet have never been seen by a foot/fit expert so I have no idea what my arches or pronation situation might be. Godamn my feet wish they lived in North America.

I've been using a blue Superfeet bed to fix a problem with an unsuitable shell. I'm going to take them out and revert to my old cheap soft foot beds.

Thanks for starting the thread, my solution (including the need for a smaller shell fit) probably lies in this thread.

120 days a year in boots. This just has to be solved.

[Island Bay]

I threw away my less than impressive footbeds (don't even remember the brand) after I got Intuition liners. They have completely molded to my foot sole, so I have just added a flat sole between shell and liner. It works.

[neck beard]

I have just added a flat sole between shell and liner. It works.

That is what I'm aiming at. Trying to find a boot board to stick in there.