Inserts off... by <1mm

[shafty85]

So, I installed inserts for the first time last night. Everything went well... except for, you know, that important part where the inserts are in the correct location My issue arose from any number of possible errors, and the accumulation was enough such that one insert in 3 locations is off. Two of the inserts I can make work by finessing the install of the screws (ie. start all the screws, none all the way in to start, and they have to be installed in a certain order, then they go in nice and easy). One I am off by the thickness of the insert wall.

Damn, those are tight tolerances you need when installing inserts (the standard mount went absolutely perfect, or so I thought).

So - my question is: how do I proceed?

Fill the holes (what would I fill with?) that are off, sextuple check the location, and redrill? I would be drilling mainly through the fill material and my concern is that the top sheet, and other layers, will guide the bit back to the original hole. The offset of centre of the holes would would be so small, I don't see this working, but I put this out to smarter minds than mine. Or, enlarge the holes on my bindings by <1mm (0.5mm?) per hole to provide the tolerance I require? This is the first time I've done inserts and only my second binding install (the first being the standard install). So, I don't know what the norm is but I have to physically screw the screws through the binding housing using quite a bit of force (Radical FTs) which is not the same as my pivots in which they just slide through, just grazing the binding baseplate.

Thanks for any insight/help!

[Va Ki Bo]

1) fill with a good (24h) epoxy + steelwool
2) cure
3) redrill

Precision boost hint: from a good deep center punch - use small drill bit first , that will create a good guideline for bigger bits
So hand drilling in 3 passes (pin size -> bigger -> final size bit) you can easily achieve machine precision

[Timberridge]

[neufox47]

If you can't finess the last one its off my more like 2+mm IME. Remove, fill, and get a drill press. Drill press is the only reliable way I've found to install. Drill bits like to walk when going through skis.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using TGR Forums

[shafty85]

1) fill with a good (24h) epoxy + steelwool
2) cure
3) redrill

Precision boost hint: from a good deep center punch - use small drill bit first , that will create a good guideline for bigger bits
So hand drilling in 3 passes (pin size -> bigger -> final size bit) you can easily achieve machine precision

What ratio do I mix the epoxy/steel wool? And how do I figure out where centre of the hole should be, now? Would a jig work any longer? I'd be guessing at where the centre of the other holes is, which seems like it would give me as much error as I already have...

I've read people mentioning wood dowels before, as well - any reason to use the epoxy & steel wool over this? I don't favour either way - just want to make sure I make the most lasting repair possible.

If you can't finess the last one its off my more like 2+mm IME. Remove, fill, and get a drill press. Drill press is the only reliable way I've found to install. Drill bits like to walk when going through skis.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using TGR Forums

I asked about getting a drill press and was advised against it in another thread (http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...t=#post4100117) by what seems (seemed? ) like legit reasons. I have the Jondrums guide, so I think that using the method Va Ki Bo suggested might work just as well?

[DropCliffsNotBombs]

Try this before giving up...
For some reason, Dynafit makes their screws thread into the toe plates, rather than allowing the screw to drop right through. This does NOT allow for much "wiggle room" when lining up the holes.
Take your screws out of the Radical FT toe pieces and then drill through the (threaded plastic) screw holes with a slightly larger drill bit. What you are doing is removing the threads and enlarging the holes so the screws will then drop right through (like ALL other bindings do.)
Now try again to manipulate the screws to line up with the four inserts. It might be just enough additional tolerance to get them all started in the inserts.
Good luck!

[Timberridge]

I have the Jondrums guide, so I think that using the method Va Ki Bo suggested might work just as well?

Agreed. I've learned this the hard way too. And some topsheets are more forgiving than others, but you really have to triple check the alignment when you do the first punch. When I do inserts this step takes the most time in the whole process. If that punch is off, it's really hard to correct the hole position after without a press. Also, after the punch I make the pilot with a 1/16" bit. The punch produces a volcano which the bit naturally falls into. I then take a countersink bit and remove that volcano ridge before drilling the final hole. This reduces the chance of the wide bit wandering off the side of the ridge.

[shafty85]

Try this before giving up...
For some reason, Dynafit makes their screws thread into the toe plates, rather than allowing the screw to drop right through. This does NOT allow for much "wiggle room" when lining up the holes.
Take your screws out of the Radical FT toe pieces and then drill through the (threaded plastic) screw holes with a slightly larger drill bit. What you are doing is removing the threads and enlarging the holes so the screws will then drop right through (like ALL other bindings do.)
Now try again to manipulate the screws to line up with the four inserts. It might be just enough additional tolerance to get them all started in the inserts.
Good luck!

That is my thought, exactly. I was thinking of using a 13/64 (5.15mm) drill bit first, allowing me .3mm 'play' in all directions, and if that didn't work, a 7/32 (5.55mm) bit, allowing 1mm 'play' in all directions, to try to get the tolerance I need. Thoughts?

The inserts reduce the wiggle room, and I accept that, but the precision/diameter of the dynafit bindings is allowing zero tolerance. I've measured 3 times and all inserts are <=1mm off in any direction. No way I, personally, can achieve that sort of accuracy given that all it requires is 0.5mm variation on each hole and I'm farked - especially when considering the templates print with a lineweight of 1mm.

Agreed. I've learned this the hard way too. And some topsheets are more forgiving than others, but you really have to triple check the alignment when you do the first punch. When I do inserts this step takes the most time in the whole process. If that punch is off, it's really hard to correct the hole position after without a press. Also, after the punch I make the pilot with a 1/16" bit. The punch produces a volcano which the bit naturally falls into. I then take a countersink bit and remove that volcano ridge before drilling the final hole. This reduces the chance of the wide bit wandering off the side of the ridge.

I'll be using this method for all future mounts, regardless if I use inserts or not. I did triple check the original holes prior to drilling anything, but the bit must have wandered the smallest amount, creating the current issue.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

1mm? Make binding holes bigger.

[shafty85]

I enlarged the diameter of the holes on the bindings by .5mm (using a 7/32 drill bit) and now everything fits fine and dandy. Thanks for all the advice and info, everyone. Mucho gracias.

Man, those are TIGHT tolerances. Going to have to step my game up for the next mount!

Thanks again

[toast2266]

I enlarged the diameter of the holes on the bindings by .5mm (using a 7/32 drill bit) and now everything fits fine and dandy. Thanks for all the advice and info, everyone. Mucho gracias.

Man, those are TIGHT tolerances. Going to have to step my game up for the next mount!

Thanks again

Looks like I'm late to the party (glad it worked out), but whoever said you shouldn't use a drill press doesn't know what they're talking about. A drill press isn't necessary, but it certainly helps avoid problems like this.

[Ted Striker]

^^^ agreed. Drill press = good. Anyone who says otherwise probably has poor shop skills.


@ shafty85 and anyone else tackling this job, here are some tips that might help you with future mounts:

Always remove the threads on dynafits as per DCNB's advice. DON'T enlarge the holes.

Check the the paper template with both a ruler, and the actual binding.

If you have a drill press, use it. If it has a laser sight, calibrate it on a scrap peice of wood.

Use the drill press + modified center punch trick as a tap guide - a youtube search returned this demo:





Important last step:

Once you've got the inserts installed AND while the epoxy is still liquid, screw the bindings in. Leave them in until the expoxy has cured - preferably in a warm location. This ensures that the inserts are straight and aligned.

[Timberridge]

Important last step:

Once you've got the inserts installed AND while the epoxy is still liquid, screw the bindings in. Leave them in until the expoxy has cured - preferably in a warm location. This ensures that the inserts are straight and aligned.

Assuming the hole was tapped properly a fully inserted and glued insert isn't going to move.

And as far as a drill press. If you got one go for it, but to justify buying one because you do a few bindings each year? Might as well buy jigs. And I would rather do it freehand than with a press that I'm not used to working with, and it has nothing to do with shop skills. Same goes with someone else's drill. I always use my own drill that I know drills round holes.

[shafty85]

^^^ agreed. Drill press = good. Anyone who says otherwise probably has poor shop skills.


@ shafty85 and anyone else tackling this job, here are some tips that might help you with future mounts:

Always remove the threads on dynafits as per DCNB's advice. DON'T enlarge the holes.

Check the the paper template with both a ruler, and the actual binding.

If you have a drill press, use it. If it has a laser sight, calibrate it on a scrap peice of wood.

Use the drill press + modified center punch trick as a tap guide - a youtube search returned this demo:





Important last step:

Once you've got the inserts installed AND while the epoxy is still liquid, screw the bindings in. Leave them in until the expoxy has cured - preferably in a warm location. This ensures that the inserts are straight and aligned.

Well, I didn't do your last step, but hopefully I'll be okay - didn't see it on John's video, so didn't think to do it. How can the screws 'straighten' the inserts - shouldn't the inserts be locked in place by the hole you drilled/tapped? How would you be able to have them anything but at whatever angle (hopefully, straight) you drilled the holes at? Another thing to remember for next time.

In regards to 'enlarging the holes, the 0.5mm simply did what DCNB suggested - eliminated the threads on the holes, far as I can tell. There is minimal slop for the screws (they don't go through unless completely vertical).

[FlimFlamvanHam]

In regards to 'enlarging the holes, the 0.5mm simply did what DCNB suggested - eliminated the threads on the holes, far as I can tell. There is minimal slop for the screws (they don't go through unless completely vertical).

you're golden.

Pretty much same instance on my end: inserts for Pivots and Verticals. I use one of those little portable drill presses for all of my mounts. It should not even be called a press but a 'helpful guide' for keeping the bit close to 90 degree perpendicular to the drilling surface relative to freehand.

Those prethreaded plastic plates are a PITA with inserts...or just a reg mount for that matter. I have no idea what benefit Dfit sees in that aspect to make them that way.

[dschane]

Assuming the hole was tapped properly a fully inserted and glued insert isn't going to move.

And as far as a drill press. If you got one go for it, but to justify buying one because you do a few bindings each year?

Agreed. I'm an idiot with my hands (and an overall idiot to boot), but if you make a pilot hole and then use a few increasingly larger drill bits, you can get perfectly centered holes without a drill press.

To the OP, your situation has happened to me once and the solution I followed isn't great or cheap, but you make the hole bigger, tap it, epoxy, install helicoil, install the insert, and done. Same as procedure for repairing stripped the threads inside the ski:

http://bindingfreedom.com/Insert-Ins...l-Kit-4021.htm

Obviously, the key/challenge lies in aligning the bigger hole so that correctly.

[Hugh Conway]

^^^ agreed. Drill press = good. Anyone who says otherwise probably has poor shop skills.

or good enough shop skills to drill accurately by hand? many cheaper home drill presses (like many of the central machinery/chinese rebadged crap jobs) are pretty shit for accuracy anyways.

now back to binding mount fetishism.

[shafty85]

Assuming the hole was tapped properly a fully inserted and glued insert isn't going to move.

And as far as a drill press. If you got one go for it, but to justify buying one because you do a few bindings each year? Might as well buy jigs. And I would rather do it freehand than with a press that I'm not used to working with, and it has nothing to do with shop skills. Same goes with someone else's drill. I always use my own drill that I know drills round holes.

Wait... what??? NO-ONE mentioned round holes - mine are square. Will that make a difference?

Agree that a properly tapped insert shouldn't move. I have little to no faith in mine, but the concept seems solid.

[Ted Striker]

Assuming the hole was tapped properly a fully inserted and glued insert isn't going to move.

And as far as a drill press. If you got one go for it, but to justify buying one because you do a few bindings each year?

Well, I didn't do your last step, but hopefully I'll be okay - didn't see it on John's video, so didn't think to do it. How can the screws 'straighten' the inserts - shouldn't the inserts be locked in place by the hole you drilled/tapped? How would you be able to have them anything but at whatever angle (hopefully, straight) you drilled the holes at? Another thing to remember for next time.

It's not to fix a fucked up mount - it's to fix any minor mis-alignment (the OP claimed his inserts were out buy less than 1 mm).

The primary functions of the epoxy are to prevent water intrusion, and the insert from backing out. The secondary functions are to lubricate the hole during installation and to fill any gaps - which do occur. When you screw the insert (or a screw) into wood, it distorts a little bit (or a lot in the case of some soft-ass cored skis). Additionally, the epoxy does penetrate the wood and somewhat stiffen the threads. Once it dries, it's too late to adjust.

And I didn't tell anyone to buy a drill press. A real man already owns one.

[userA]

running out of room in my shop for a dp so i'll have to teach my wife to mount
b

[shafty85]

It's not to fix a fucked up mount - it's to fix any minor mis-alignment (the OP claimed his inserts were out buy less than 1 mm).

The primary functions of the epoxy are to prevent water intrusion, and the insert from backing out. The secondary functions are to lubricate the hole during installation and to fill any gaps - which do occur. When you screw the insert (or a screw) into wood, it distorts a little bit (or a lot in the case of some soft-ass cored skis). Additionally, the epoxy does penetrate the wood and somewhat stiffen the threads. Once it dries, it's too late to adjust.

And I didn't tell anyone to buy a drill press. A real man already owns one.

Sounds logical. I'm not arguing with you - just trying to get all my ducks in a row before I do another mount in the near future; and trying to convince myself I haven't completely farked this mount up In the future I'll install the bindings before the epoxy is setting/curing as, at the very least, it seems like a redundancy to help improve accuracy and swaps.

[grinch]

good work. I had a paper jig that was off a bit. Jon has heli coils for inserts as well. I was able to move the hole a bit with the heli coil and drill press. also drilled a hole the size of the heli coil in a solid chuck of wood for a jig and clamped it to the ski to stop any deflection from the misaligned hole as I drilled the realignment. i'm more inclined to use the bf plates now but good to have options

[shafty85]

good work. I had a paper jig that was off a bit. Jon has heli coils for inserts as well. I was able to move the hole a bit with the heli coil and drill press. also drilled a hole the size of the heli coil in a solid chuck of wood for a jig and clamped it to the ski to stop any deflection from the misaligned hole as I drilled the realignment. i'm more inclined to use the bf plates now but good to have options

If this mount doesn't work out, I'll be resorting to the helicoils (aware they are available, but am hoping to avoid them). If that IS the way I have to go, for whatever reason (spinners, etc) I may wind up just removing all the inserts, plugging all the holes and basically starting from scratch to make sure I get everything nuts on the 2nd go 'round. Hopefully I don't have to resort to that, but at least I have options, as u said.

[grinch]

good luck. hope they're not the crj's and your girl is still enjoying them. I didn't expect much from those maestros I picked up from you(thought tail# was weird) but they're fun as ol hell. i'm guessing the zero camber and good tail rocker. been great getting back on the hill and getting back up to speed. they pivot at any speed(eg:my slow speed) and carve great for a big ski. thanks again eh

[jondrums]

Hey Shafty - sounds like you got the situation under control based on the advise to drill out the dynafit holes. As an engineer, I can think of absolutely no good reason for why they make those holes so tight - to the point where the screws are actually threaded into the plastic. It is worse in every single way. So I always drill out the holes in dynafit bindings before mounting - whether inserts, plates, or standard mounts.