Berthoud Pass

[Pinner]

Some mildly insulting remarks have been made of late about Berthoud Pass and the methods and motivation of FOBP and of the plethora of clueless gomers hiking there. This, among other things, has gotten me thinking about Berthoud Pass, FOBP and the increasingly combative and territorial nature of backcountry skiers.

Berthoud is not a typical BC area. Its ease of access means that it is very enticing for a resort skier to hop out of the car and follow a bootpack to a potentially hazardous descent. Last weekend alone, there were two incidents where skiers suffered broken legs. The first was a skier who broke both tib/fibs (race boots and overcranked bindings?) and the second was a snowboarder who removed his board to hike back up the Rush cliffs, slipped and broke his leg.

The terrain and snowpack are very much out-of-synch with the general nature of the circus clowns who seem to increase in numbers each year. The resorts are overcrowded most days and the sidecountry takes up a lot of the overflow. There's also a rise in combative territorialism in the backcountry and this saddens me. Don't get me wrong, I'm very much a Darwinist-- keep up with the pack or get left behind; evolve or die. But I'm also a traditionalist and hate to see good things grow so big they get loved to death.

FOBP has been accused of running "special ed avy classes" that bring gapers into the backcountry. Quite to the contrary, the vast (almost overwhelming) majority of attendees at our avy clinics were experienced backcoutnry skiers who saw the clinic as an opportunity to refresh and practice skills that we often tend to neglect. It's kinda like changing the oil in your car to keep it running right. Sure there were a few noobs in the bunch.

But what if most of the participants were, in fact, noobs. Should we NOT educate them since it might encourage them to get in over their heads? Or should we strive to raise their awareness of the hazards and show them some basic safe protocols so that they can progress within their ability and not get in over their heads? I'm not sure I know the answer, and I'm certainly not presumptuous to assume that my answer would be correct even if I had one!

Yes, Bethoud is overflowing with gapers. No, it's not a typical backcountry venue. But it does have some really kick ass terrain, is an easy drive from the Front Range and holds a lot of special memories for many of us. FOBP has been derided for our efforts at preserving the legacy of skiing there. Is it wrong for us to want to maintain (even improve) the character of the place, or should we just let it go to the hot dog vendors and slednecks?

This is not a personal crusade for me. I'm not emotional about it. But I do care about it and I'm proud of my colleagues and our members. There's definitely others who know the place better than me, and who spend way more time there than me. Some of them are involved and vocal, some prefer to stick their heads in the sand and bail outta there as fast as they can. Both approaches are fine, so long as we acknowledge that as pressure increases on the resources there, experienced backcountry skiers stand a good chance of being squeezed out.

What other issues are associated with this? Any suggested remedies? In a perfect world, what would you want up there?

Just a few rambling, caffeine-boosted, disjointed thoughts. Look forward to your reactions and comments.

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[homerjay]

Here is in interesting paper that says that people with basic avalanche education are actually more prone to expose themselves to hazards.

I agree that the FOBP workshops were a great way to refresh skills, practice with beacons, etc. I know I'm guilty of more turns, less practice. For the most part, I support FOBP's ideas, mainly the fact that Berthoud Pass is a treasure to Colorado skiing history, and unfettered access by backcountry skiers must be maintained. I've also had groups of people, sharing the same right to be there as I have, dropping in above me making my very very nervous. FOBP in my opinion is part of the solution, not part of the problem. It's not like you guys are encouraging gear/knowledge-less jibbers to head up there...quite the opposite.

Kudos for trying to start a dialogue, but 2:1 odds this turns into a feces flinging battle.

[nealric]

I kinda wish I was around for when the ski area was there- not that I dont like it as a slackcountry location.

Problem is, it really dosent quite have real backcountry character (especially on a saturday afternoon). But, no matter what is done to the parking lots or any other facilities, its never going to get that character back. I think the character it does have definetly serves as encouragement for idiot gapers. A few weeks ago, I ran into one guy who insisted that there is no avy danger ever there. Even worse, there were at least three old slides in plain sight

There are enough rangers there milling about- I would support a plan that requires that they check to make sure that people going up there have at least a beacon, probe, and shovel.

[lemon boy]

What do I want to see?

Two surface lifts acessing all of the old terrain (I think that would be easy to do).
Avalanche control work
Moderately priced tickets and passes
Small lodge/bar/warming hut
Good public shitters

But I recognize that is simply pie in the sky dreaming. Well, we might get the shitters.

I think where a lot of the criticism comes from is the fact that when FOBP goes about promoting the avy clinics and or safety etc...there is an inadvertant promotion of skiing at the pass as well. I also think that some folks have expectations of FOBPs mission that are not necessarily in line with FOBPs mission.

Regardless, I think that FOBP does a pretty good job in general.

[Dr. Gaper]

What do I want to see?

Two surface lifts acessing all of the old terrain (I think that would be easy to do).
Avalanche control work
Moderately priced tickets and passes
Small lodge/bar/warming hut
Good public shitters
.

Yes!

All other efforts are money and time wasted.

[Pinner]

inadvertant promotion of skiing at the pass

It's an ongoing struggle.

We don't want to flood the place with gapers, but we do want the gapers that do ski there to not... be gapers.



HJ, the report you cited brings up a good point. But it's like what Wiegle said about helmets, "We didn't have a problem with people running into trees before they started wearing helmets."



Both the above points go to the central mission of FOBP-- access and safety.

[lemon boy]

You know, the gaper factor doesn't really bother me too much. Certainly IMVHO it is way less a problem at BP than at say...ohh.... LOVELAND PASS. (And, IMVHO the terrain at BP is actually "gaper safer" than LP). Yes, Vigilante gets fricking hammered and so does north chute (to a far lesser extent). that said, even the lift line hardly gets skied....

[Thinking Out Loud] I know there are a ton of reasons "why not." But... given how the pass is used currently I for one don't think it would be terrible to have some kind of avy mitigation staff. Not controlling access just mitigating dangers. (I know I know I know! Bad Lemon, BAD. To cast this in a bad analogy it is kind of like the argument about giving kids condoms in school)

[ScottG]

Here is in interesting paper that says that people with basic avalanche education are actually more prone to expose themselves to hazards.

1. INTRODUCTION
On January 12, 1993, three skiers left the well-marked
boundary of Vail Ski Area headed for the backcountry.
The group had been warned of the dangerous avalanche
conditions by the Vail Ski Patrol, but these skiers had just
completed a two-day avalanche course and were confi -
dent that they could find safe skiing. Fresh slides were
visible in the area, and a follow-up investigation indicated
that the skiers probably experienced collapsing of the
snowpack as they hiked. Despite obvious indications of
dangerously unstable snow, the group chose to ski a
steep, wind-loaded gully. The avalanche they triggered
caught two of the skiers, burying and killing one of them.

If going to one class is their defintition of someone with basic avvy training, then that explains the results.
sure they may have gone to the class, but were they paying attention???
obviously not: nearby slides, high hazard, whoomping, wind loaded steep gullies, skiing two or more at a time . . .

Thanks for the link, though - have printed it and will read it later.

[Buster Highmen]

But what if most of the participants were, in fact, noobs. Should we NOT educate them since it might encourage them to get in over their heads? Or should we strive to raise their awareness of the hazards and show them some basic safe protocols so that they can progress within their ability and not get in over their heads?

No, make the information available and encourage people to learn it. The various whining can be attributed to stashmongers, intransigent ostriches, idiots and snobs.

Yes, Bethoud is overflowing with gapers. No, it's not a typical backcountry venue. But it does have some really kick ass terrain, is an easy drive from the Front Range and holds a lot of special memories for many of us. FOBP has been derided for our efforts at preserving the legacy of skiing there. Is it wrong for us to want to maintain (even improve) the character of the place, or should we just let it go to the hot dog vendors and slednecks?

No. Ignore the insecure, vapid, control freek contrarians

What other issues are associated with this? Any suggested remedies? In a perfect world, what would you want up there?

Lifts per lb's ass toot ob sir va shuns.

[Pinner]

Thanks for the replies so far. You folks have been strong supporters from the begining and I believe you know how much it's appreciated.

Still hoping, though, to hear from Lou Diggler, as his comments were a large part of what set this off in the first place.

[lemon boy]

Ohhhh I'm sure he'll light you guys up in the blog tomorrow

[Buster Highmen]

He's reading this as I type.

[lemon boy]

damnit buster, you scared him off.

That feature is worse than watching a fishfinder.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Despite the levity, we are all waiting with bated breath (no pun)

[Buster Highmen]

damnit? Is that in the OED?

[lemon boy]

right after damnation

[Buster Highmen]

what about damnable?

[shera]

I skied there yesterday and had a lot of fun. For me, spending so much time in really small groups in the backountry, it was fun to see other people and say hi. (hey killclimbz, spthompson, et al). Nobody seemed like a gaper either.

And LB - perfect!

[Mountain Freak]

Homer Jay's article is quite interesting. I took an avy class that shows a matrix comparing how advanced a skier you are and how advanced in avalanche training you are with regard to getting caught in a slide. Sure enough, the category of the most advanced skiers who are also most advanced in avalanche awareness got into 40% of all avalanches. By far the highest number in the matrix.

I love going BC at Berthoud, but I agree that most of the Gapers think that if a place is popular, there is no danger. Halsted Morris says he goes on body recoveries every year at Berthoud. I'm not sure if blasting at the area is the right solution, but I hope it doesn't take a major disaster for people to realize that it definately can be a dangerous place.

[Cliff Huckable]

What do I want to see?

Two surface lifts acessing all of the old terrain (I think that would be easy to do).
Avalanche control work
Moderately priced tickets and passes
Small lodge/bar/warming hut
Good public shitters

[telephone voice]"Hello, this is Intrawest..."[/telephone voice]

[72Twenty]

[telephone voice]"Hello, this is Intrawest..."[/telephone voice]

I thought you were going to change your name.

[Dirk Diggler]

Thanks for the replies so far. You folks have been strong supporters from the begining and I believe you know how much it's appreciated.

Still hoping, though, to hear from Lou Diggler, as his comments were a large part of what set this off in the first place.

Not sure what I "set off" other than a discussion about what you guys are seeking to do. Threads as recent as the past week have indicated others are still unclear about your goals etc. I listened to your explanation on this last time and found your arguments persuasive enough to write a letter in support. Thats about all the comment I have other than I still think the doggy daycare idea is golden.

[Lurch]

I think FOBP main goal should be to keep the pass open to skiing. The main threat as I see it is gapers getting them selves hurt or killed and family members suing the forest service. The avy clinics are a great step in raising the avy awareness level of the users. I think a sign that points out all of the slide paths in Berthoud and says "People have died here would you like to be next?" would also help.

[STD]

Thanks for the support, Dirk. And everyone else as well.

We're hoping that people have now come to realize that FOBP was formed not to have a specific 'plan' in place for the Pass, but rather to solicit input & ideas from those who use the area and/or care about the area. This has been on our website & literature but as we all know some people just seem to overlook it. We've received great feedback from everyone.....keep it up.

-STD

[powndnstein]

Here is how it happens. No matter how altruistic and positive your energy towards someplace is, as soon as it goes beyond the word of mouth and that's how it's known stage, it begins the cycle that leads to full blown exploitation, by the media driven commercial money grubbers, no matter what. What's going to happen when the radio stations, in conjunction with the ski retailers start broadcasting the powder report so every body can get up there and get into the groove scene, and then the $$ that sponsors the big contest takes it over for their day and only the contestants can ski it and on and on and on. Look at what's happened in the world of surfing like the north shore for example, it makes one want to puke. If you want to look for a worst possible way things could turn out there is one fine example. My advice is a cliche, turn on, tune in, drop out, or as Voltaire exhorted, "tend to your gardens."