Mammut urges climbers to stop using fixed draws

[cat in january]

This came in my ACC Newsletter today and thought it was worth posting.


"Mammut is urgently calling for the immediate discontinuation of use and removal of permanently installed quick draws and carabiners in climbing areas. Irrespective of the manufacturer of such equipment, repeated wear can result in the formation of sharp edges capable of damaging or completely severing ropes, even in relatively small falls. Investigations by Mammut have shown that this known problem is actually far more dramatic than previously assumed and represents a very high risk for climbers."

Link
http://www.mammut.ch/ropes_handling_...8e535-21985757

[NAKsloChinoMalo]

thank you for the PSA.

[dark_star]

I've always been wary of fixed draws; if you don't know the history of the equipment, it's hard to assess its safety. Perhaps OK for rappelling if carefully inspected, but otherwise a very sketchy practice.

[DropCliffsNotBombs]

Not to mention that fixed draws also look like hanging litter.

[Soups]

I've always been wary of fixed draws; if you don't know the history of the equipment, it's hard to assess its safety. Perhaps OK for rappelling if carefully inspected, but otherwise a very sketchy practice.

Not to mention that fixed draws also look like hanging litter.

These.

Never understood it. Looks like shit on the walls and who knows how long the dogbones have been up there baking in the sun, unless you were the one that placed them. If you can't clip it, it doesn't count. But thats just me.

[spook]

it's weird. i've always been interested in climbing but never done it. i have always wondered if people just used other peoples' gear and if it was ever retrieved on the way down or if it was just ugly shit hanging on cliffs forever. i would never ever use gear i didn't own and maintain myself if it was a matter of life and death.

[Soups]

it's weird. i've always been interested in climbing but never done it. i have always wondered if people just used other peoples' gear and if it was ever retrieved on the way down or if it was just ugly shit hanging on cliffs forever. i would never ever use gear i didn't own and maintain myself if it was a matter of life and death.

No doubt. The funny thing is the draws are normally left on the uber hard routes and overhangs with higher fall potentials. They do it because it's easier to just clip the rope instead of both draw and rope and because it can be a pain in the ass to retrieve a draw from an overhang. It's too bad they are calling for a change because it's dangerous and not because it looks like shit.

[Bromontana]

Rather than stopping the use of fixed draws, it seems more practical to - per normal - have a few extra draws on you for those situations and check the biners as you clip. It's certainly a good thing to be aware of, however ceasing the use of all fixed draws sounds like overkill.

As far as aesthetics, agreed it's ugly. From a climber's perspective the fixed draws can add a bit of safety on routes where taking the time to place and clip can trigger a nasty whipper back into the wall below the overhang.. gotta think safety overrides minor visual pollution. Depends on the accessibility of the crag though.. lot of ones I've seen would never be noticed by anyone except climbers at the crag.

[jmerrey]

The image they show on that link is way over dramatized IMO. Could that type of wear eventually happen? Sure, absolutely. However, I have been climbing in areas like the Cirque, Coliseum, etc. in the NRG and the 'lode in the RRG for years, both of which have a couple hundred fixed draws, and never had a problem. That being said, the climbing community in those areas is also extremely proactive and old gear gets ditched and replaced long before any wear that would resemble the photo in that link occurs. I, myself, have replaced countless pieces of hardware and old bolts over the years as they wear out and become dilapidated. It's really just commonsense most of the time and carrying at least one extra draw is a good habit to get into. And typically, most fixed hardware is found in areas that are steep enough to keep the rain off of it, prolonging the life of the hardware substantially. I often hear people say things like "They should really replace those... [hangers, draws, biners, etc]" and I always think "who are they?" If you feel unsafe climbing on a piece of fixed gear then go out and replace the thing yourself. After all, outside of tax dollars, most of these amazing climbing areas are free anyway, so do your part to maintain the hardware before you complain about it. As to the aesthetics of fixed gear... yea, no denying they're ugly. Rant over.

[ex-powderbroker]

I'm about as likely to clip into that as I am to let Whiskey Mike move my car.

As far as Spooks comment goes, I think it's pretty obvious on most biners if they're damaged. That looks like a lot of rope has run through it, so hopefully the climber would replace it or at least let whoever helps maintain the place (if any group) know to take a look. I know at Rumney there's a coalition that does stuff like that. With fixed stuff like Dyneema slings for rappel, I'm more worried because it can be less easy to tell how old it is, even if you're 99.999% sure that it's fine because it just got someone else down (and is unfrayed, etc).

/climbing jong out

[adrenalated]

That being said, the climbing community in those areas is also extremely proactive and old gear gets ditched and replaced long before any wear that would resemble the photo in that link occurs. I, myself, have replaced countless pieces of hardware and old bolts over the years as they wear out and become dilapidated. It's really just commonsense most of the time and carrying at least one extra draw is a good habit to get into.

This. There are places where fixed hardware is sensible and places where it is not. Highly difficult, highly overhanging climbs where hanging or cleaning draws is difficult and/or dangerous are good candidates for fixed draws. But fixed hardware doesn't work unless there's a strong community of local climbers or a climber's coalition that takes responsibility for the integrity of the fixed hardware. And it's also up to the local community and property managers to determine if the aesthetic is acceptable or not.

I am a fan of permadraws (steel cables and steel carabiners rather than webbing and aluminum) for places where fixed draws are appropriate.

I've been on routes or belayed folks on routes that basically require prehung draws. One I'm thinking of has a desperate crux above a ledge. The FA placed the bolt - wisely - as high as possible, so that clipping the rope to a prehung draw is at the very limits of one's reach from the last good hold. That minimizes the chance of ledgefall as much as possible. The route is 12d and you'd have to be a 5.14 climber to make a clip from mid-crux. This route doesn't have fixed draws, but there's often project draws on it. It would be a good candidate for permadraws.

[alfajores]

Having just voted on the new Route Setting/Maintenance committee for Central Texas Mountaineers, I can tell you that the Austin area permanent draws are really well maintained and throughtfully placed. John Hogge has been proactive in removing unnecessary draws and has a private climbing area with them in all the right places. ClimbTech is in the local area of Central Texas and makes some higher grade alloys that seem to hold up to the wear and tear of public use a little better in their professional opinions. I would really like to see Mammut's plan on providing and engineering draws. It seems like they are preparing for a more evolutionary change to draws in general.

On a different note, I think bolts/clips are incredibly ugly on a rock. In places where trad gear placement is difficult or impossible (ladders of pebbles and the like) the new removable bolts from ClimbTech seems really innovative. While the equipment is durable, it seems difficult to test failure when not placing and the drilled holes you use to place can erode at a level that is difficult to inspect and harder still to maintain.

Who here is route setting?

[jm2e]

This whole debate is misguided.
Mamut post a warning. Based on a grand total of zero facts regarding gear failure around the world. Perhaps they might point out that the overwhelming majority of climbing accidents are due to human error. Perhaps they might point out that despite the insanely high number of people falling on fixed draws around the world, there are very few anecdotes of draws failing. They might also point out that if and when that ever does happen, there's another bolt with another fixed draw on it just 10 feet lower.

Then there's the idea that fixed draws are "ugly". Really? Any uglier than the massive scar a ski resort leaves on a mountain? Any uglier than the necessary construction needed to create a mountain bike trail? 99.9% of fixed draws go unnoticed by non climbers. The vast majority of fixed draws in the world are at dedicated sport climbing areas where sport climbers go and very few others join them. In the places where other folks show up, most of them view climbing as another interesting part of what's going on there. I'm talking about rednecks at Rifle, tour bus riders at Redrocks and even nature lovers at The Red. The reality is, sport climbers take up very little real estate for someone looking to really get out into the wild and see nature. For those people, sport climbers are but a blip on their radar for the day. Bolts and draws are far from ugly. They are simply the evidence that people have been there doing something cool. Don't like it, move along.

Do bolts and draws belong? Definitely. Sport climbing is a sport that's here to stay. The bolts in the rock represent an insignificant impact on the world. They aren't hurting anyone and they are essentially invisible to everyone except climbers. Fixed draws are the reality of hard sport climbing. It's not about whether they make climbs easier, or whether climbers leave them up because they're lazy, or any other stupid reason to debate. They're the reality of the sport because they make sense. As much sense as modern ski equipment and full suspension bikes. Sport climbs climb better when the bottom biner of the draw hangs in the perfect place to clip the rope. Not only does this allow the sport to be safer, it allows the sport to progress in difficulty......AND it's way more fun. Meanwhile, some routes are just plain dangerous to clean and some are just plain dangerous to hang draws on without aid climbing them. If you don't like this reality, don't hang out at sport climbing areas. Because it's not about whether a bolt was "necessary" or if someone could potentially use a nut or a cam there. It's not about whether a more determined climber could have cleaned the draws at the end of the day yesterday and then hung them back up today. It's about the fact that this is how sport climbing works, and it works well, and thousands of people enjoy the fuck out of it.

Fuck off to anyone attempting to join this debate who isn't a regular sport climber. Speaking from a naive perspective always hurts access to the outdoors in ways you don't anticipate. History is full of hikers claiming that mountain bikes ruin trails, mountain bikers claiming that horses ruin trails, everyone claiming that motocross ruins trails, REI members and Outside Magazine subscribers constantly encouraged to try protecting the outdoors by vilifying groups which they're vaguely familiar with but have no clear understanding of. If all these outdoor users got on the same page, the collective would have way more influence and ability to secure access to resources for everyone. Instead, outdoor folks are fractured and ineffective.

[berko]

mammuts warning is based on people falling to their deaths due to their ropes being severed by severely worn fixed draws.

It's not a theory. It has happened.

[hutash]

Fuck off to anyone attempting to join this debate who isn't a regular sport climber. Speaking from a naive perspective always hurts access to the outdoors in ways you don't anticipate. History is full of hikers claiming that mountain bikes ruin trails, mountain bikers claiming that horses ruin trails, everyone claiming that motocross ruins trails, REI members and Outside Magazine subscribers constantly encouraged to try protecting the outdoors by vilifying groups which they're vaguely familiar with but have no clear understanding of. If all these outdoor users got on the same page, the collective would have way more influence and ability to secure access to resources for everyone. Instead, outdoor folks are fractured and ineffective.

Wow, I hope you don't fall too far off that high horse. If only climbers can voice their opinion we would have bolt ladders and the side of the Washington monument. I agree there is a place for bolts and sport climbing, but it is not anywhere and everywhere sport climbers want them to be. Non climbers have as much right to areas as climber, and it is finding that balance that is important. Like it or not bolts and draws do have a visual impact, just as ski resorts and mtb trails do, and neither should be anywhere and everywhere; all have there appropriate place.

As to the safety issue, that should left up to climbers and manufacturers since it is a technical issue, not an aesthetic one. I suspect such a well respected rope manufacturer such as Mammut has good reason for their advice, but I don't have enough info to weigh in on that aspect of the debate.

[spook]

This whole debate is misguided.
Mamut post a warning. Based on a grand total of zero facts regarding gear failure around the world. Perhaps they might point out that the overwhelming majority of climbing accidents are due to human error. Perhaps they might point out that despite the insanely high number of people falling on fixed draws around the world, there are very few anecdotes of draws failing. They might also point out that if and when that ever does happen, there's another bolt with another fixed draw on it just 10 feet lower.

Then there's the idea that fixed draws are "ugly". Really? Any uglier than the massive scar a ski resort leaves on a mountain? Any uglier than the necessary construction needed to create a mountain bike trail? 99.9% of fixed draws go unnoticed by non climbers. The vast majority of fixed draws in the world are at dedicated sport climbing areas where sport climbers go and very few others join them. In the places where other folks show up, most of them view climbing as another interesting part of what's going on there. I'm talking about rednecks at Rifle, tour bus riders at Redrocks and even nature lovers at The Red. The reality is, sport climbers take up very little real estate for someone looking to really get out into the wild and see nature. For those people, sport climbers are but a blip on their radar for the day. Bolts and draws are far from ugly. They are simply the evidence that people have been there doing something cool. Don't like it, move along.

Do bolts and draws belong? Definitely. Sport climbing is a sport that's here to stay. The bolts in the rock represent an insignificant impact on the world. They aren't hurting anyone and they are essentially invisible to everyone except climbers. Fixed draws are the reality of hard sport climbing. It's not about whether they make climbs easier, or whether climbers leave them up because they're lazy, or any other stupid reason to debate. They're the reality of the sport because they make sense. As much sense as modern ski equipment and full suspension bikes. Sport climbs climb better when the bottom biner of the draw hangs in the perfect place to clip the rope. Not only does this allow the sport to be safer, it allows the sport to progress in difficulty......AND it's way more fun. Meanwhile, some routes are just plain dangerous to clean and some are just plain dangerous to hang draws on without aid climbing them. If you don't like this reality, don't hang out at sport climbing areas. Because it's not about whether a bolt was "necessary" or if someone could potentially use a nut or a cam there. It's not about whether a more determined climber could have cleaned the draws at the end of the day yesterday and then hung them back up today. It's about the fact that this is how sport climbing works, and it works well, and thousands of people enjoy the fuck out of it.

Fuck off to anyone attempting to join this debate who isn't a regular sport climber. Speaking from a naive perspective always hurts access to the outdoors in ways you don't anticipate. History is full of hikers claiming that mountain bikes ruin trails, mountain bikers claiming that horses ruin trails, everyone claiming that motocross ruins trails, REI members and Outside Magazine subscribers constantly encouraged to try protecting the outdoors by vilifying groups which they're vaguely familiar with but have no clear understanding of. If all these outdoor users got on the same page, the collective would have way more influence and ability to secure access to resources for everyone. Instead, outdoor folks are fractured and ineffective.

who knew people who climb fucking rocks could be so elitist!

[ShoNuff]

^^climbers are probably the worst of the bunch.

The issue is so situational. Rely on your own judgement just like any other sport with consequences.

[jmerrey]

Well... this went south quickly.