Backcountry 101: Who’s Responsible?

[LeeLau]

http://skiingbusiness.com/18417/feat...s-responsible/

Andreas's comments are very interesting

"I think we can try to mediate humbleness for the mountains and encourage people to educate themselves in general mountain sense. I think most of this can come from the media (films, magazines, etc.) that the industry is sponsoring. And I think we should stop supporting media that is showing disrespect towards the mountains. As an example it’s not really cool to out-ski an avalanche and then scream how cool that was. Instead maybe we should see it (and communicate it) as a mistake made and celebrate that we survived our own stupidity. "

[icelanticskier]

very few lives are lost to avalanches each year in the grand scheme. avy edu and gear offered is on the up, so are users. we as humans choose what we wanna watch, listen and follow. if folks wanna ski stupid, let em ski stupid, and live, or die. 1st world problem.

rog

[neck beard]

Honest question:

Which recreational 'hobbies' in North America kill 30-50 of it's participants per 4 month season in recent years? Ocean rock fishing, para/hang gliding, mtb, scuba, rock climbing, rodeo, surfing, parachuting, white water?

I think I asked this question in the past but can not find the answer again.

[Hugh Conway]

90-150 people a year? Scuba numbers appear to be about that http://www.rf30.org/final2012/wp-con...umbers_PDF.pdf The key is participation rate for BC skiing ; the data for BC skiing I've seen is almost universally shit. Even with actual numbers it's highly unlikely the avalanche risk is uniformly distributed.

Which ties into 1) what do you teach people who have diverging desires? A brobrah who's goal is to huck cliffs in the Slackcountry has different needs for education than someone who's interested in the Spearhead and Garibaldi Neve. The brobrah should probably have some mention of hazards involving trauma in addition to avys. I guess the industry could help some, but there's no way the industry alone is going to convince a kid raised on Tony Hawk Pro Skater that meadow skipping might be fun. Besides a succesful meadow skipper needs simplicity, durability and wants low cost, orthogonal to the goal of the selling shit industry.

[neck beard]

I'm not sure I can get away with this annualisation, however 90-150 scuba deaths per year is roughly 30-50 per 4 months. I'm assuming here that scuba is a 12 month per year sport whilst backcountry skiing is not a year round activity. If it were, we may perhaps see the same mount of avalanche deaths as we do scuba deaths.

Agree participation numbers are key. And even then, demographically skewed.

[LeeLau]

My WAG is that mortality rates are exaggerated but I have no basis for that.

An intro for an article that I canned because it was such a WAG pulled together numbers that i could get

"Interest in backcountry skiing is about as high as its ever been. How much interest? Accounts vary and anecdotes abound:

From Backcountry Magazine in Fall of 2012, increases in visits to Rogers Pass (a world famous backcountry destination in Glacier National Park, BC) rose 124% from 2009 - 12

From Snowsports Industry America circa Sept 2010 (SIA)- AT ski sales were up 57% from 2009 - 10

From Skiing Business November 2012 - The biggest growth in the category, AT boots, shot up from about 6,000 units during the 2007–08 season to 10,000 units for the next two before nearly doubling again last year to 23,000 units. Bindings went from about 6,000 units during the 2009–10 season to 11,700 units the next.

The true growth is hard to figure out (for example SIA numbers are notorious wild-ass-guesses). Also keep in in mind that backcountry equipment sales (and by extension the numbers of people who venture into the backcountry) are a fraction of the total skiing population of North America; from an ESPN article published Nov 28, 2012 - In a North American snowsports market that grossed just over $3.3 billion in 2011-12, sales of backcountry-specific equipment and accessories such as beacons, AT boots and bindings -- outerwear and skis that can pull double duty in both the resort and backcountry notwithstanding -- came to around $32.5 million, or 1 percent or total sales."



Source: Skiing Business, October 2011; numbers of people getting into backcountry areas via resort access steadily increasing

[neufox47]

I'm not sure I can get away with this annualisation, however 90-150 scuba deaths per year is roughly 30-50 per 4 months. I'm assuming here that scuba is a 12 month per year sport whilst backcountry skiing is not a year round activity. If it were, we may perhaps see the same mount of avalanche deaths as we do scuba deaths.

Agree participation numbers are key. And even then, demographically skewed.

I wouldn't call Scuba a 12 month sport except for the caribbean and certain other areas. Even where it can be done 12 months a year there are ups and downs.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Every backcountry region is different in terms of what type of mistakes people are making. Here is CO, education is in your face and widely available for a very affordable (often free) price. I see this lack of humility and respect for the mountains to be a huge part of bad decision making. Using the shit show that Berthoud Pass can be as an example, lack of respect for the mountains can be used to explain both the uneducated getting in over there heads and the educated, geared up "advanced" backcountry skier going for it.

One of the biggest challenges to overcome is that a powder covered slope does not "look" scary.

[Hugh Conway]

One of the biggest challenges to overcome is that a powder covered slope does not "look" scary.

Isn't that awareness and conditioning? Humans didn't always think mountains were fluffy wonderful playgrounds; people used to treat them with fear. A 20th century example is how Balinese weren't "watermen" they were mostly fearful of the ocean (except for some fishermen, who even then were somewhat fearful) until westerners came and started surfing/swimming/everything and now there's a number of balinese surfers/watermen some of whom really rip. The ski industry isn't powerful enough to get people to wake the fuck up and pay attention to their surroundings


If it matters ~750 AT/Tele boots sold in N. America on eBay and ~350 AT bindings in the past 3 months so that ratio appears about right Lee. ~50k AT boots in 4 seasons is tiny, but goes along way to explaining much "industry" behavior.

[totaliboard]

to any one that thinks avalanches only happen 4 months out of the year.. remind me not to go anywhere near you. avalanches happen every month out of the year.

[icelanticskier]

to any one that thinks avalanches only happen 4 months out of the year.. remind me not to go anywhere near you. avalanches happen every month out of the year.

stay away from me then. i'm a firm believer that if you fear avalanches, they will kill you. no fear, you live

rog

[neck beard]

to any one that thinks avalanches only happen 4 months out of the year.. remind me not to go anywhere near you. avalanches happen every month out of the year.

Of course. But the throngs of recreational backcountry consumers are generally only exposed to that hazard for 4 months a year. Hazard is year round, exposure - therefore risk, is seasonal.

Adding to the data from Lee above, very up to date BC Coroners data: http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/coroners/p...che-deaths.pdf

Coincidentally, the Coroner in BC defines an Avalanche Season:

Cases are grouped by avalanche season, with each season defined as beginning in November and ending in April of the following year

[Hugh Conway]

that'd be 6 months and at least in California scuba season is pretty much year round I think. Or people die year round.

[neck beard]

I just picked 4 months based on the very obvious ebb and flow of tourists I see in my area. Dec-Jan-Feb-March is also the period that avalanche centers seem to publish for.

[totaliboard]

well, i got broke off in a wet slide last june. 12 or so people died in august on manaslu, then the Canadian in October..

[Lone Star]

we get that you're special, totaliboard. but your stupidity in june doesn't equate with the hazards that the vast majority of backcountry skiers deal with during the winter season.

[totaliboard]

yo dick weed. the point is to make responsible decisions whether its june or january. in case you havent noticed, it can get warm in in the winter and snow in the summer

[Gurutasker]

I wouldn't call Scuba a 12 month sport except for the caribbean and certain other areas. Even where it can be done 12 months a year there are ups and downs.

I know a number of people that SCUBA all year round. This is in NZ where the water temperatures get well below 10 deg celcius.