Thoughts about the slide (before, during and after)

[Frozone]

As always APD. very educational thread, thanks for taking the time to post it. More importantly I'm glad you're safe and that Gramps and TH were able to watch you ski out rather than perform a rescue.

I think an interesting point to consider was how hard Gramps or TH (not sure which) was breathing at the end of TH's clip. Sounded like he'd just topped a ridge, not like someone taking a video. I'm sitting here contemplating all of that adreneline from simply watching you get caught and then thinking about how challenging it must be to keep it together during a real life rescue. Very sobering...

[gramps]

I think an interesting point to consider was how hard Gramps or TH (not sure which) was breathing at the end of TH's clip. Sounded like he'd just topped a ridge, not like someone taking a video. I'm sitting here contemplating all of that adreneline from simply watching you get caught and then thinking about how challenging it must be to keep it together during a real life rescue. Very sobering...

Heh, TH was the heavy breather, but we were both pretty juiced up by the time it was over.

[chaka]

holy shite. glad everyone is healthy. The information the three of you provided is invaluable in educating others such as myself. Thanks very much for pouring out a difficult experience for the benefit of others.

[splat]

i have received a pm from a confused person so to clarify for others:

i have only been caught in one avalanche, this one. i have only been involved in one other avalanche where someone else was caught. please don't thow these incidents back in my face to make your point, especially when they aren't relative to the conversation at hand.

You gotta be kidding? Someone giving you grief?

To That Confused Person:
This media, combined with footage and a first person account from someone relaying a lot of recently gleaned info he has labored to learn on his own, coupled with the input of a pro like Tremper is about as educationl as it gets and reaches a lot of people. Unless you feel you can contribute something more than 'don't go', don't criticize.

[AltaPowderDaze]

splat, it wasn't that. it was more along the lines of me being hypocritical by speaking to how some slednecks will gang bang an avy path with a camera in the runout and no resources left for rescue. the person said that i was in the same boat because i had been in several large avalanches and broke travel protocol. i replied that in my incidents only 1 person was on the slope at a time. he later added something about being sorry if this was harsh. yeah, it sounded real heart felt. use the same breath.

to those who may have read the thread, it was not slippy. he was very diplomatic and even put up with me being tactless. thanks for that.

[ScottG]

What about the concept of splitting up and taking very different lines??

Curious if this is bad protocol or something you regret.
If you had been buried, it may have taken a long time for your rescuers to walk from the safe zone to your burial uphill, hearts beating, under stress, at altitude.
Plus, they're more exhausted when they arrive to start digging.
Skiing down bed surface is faster.

Not a slam- just a question.

Thanks for sharing - we all need to learn more.
Glad you are OK.

P.S. - I know the 3rd skier on the same line can trigger a slide, but the first is usually more likely and risky. Someone always has to bat clean-up, but should they be taking a totally different line?

[Trackhead]

What about the concept of splitting up and taking very different lines??

Curious if this is bad protocol or something you regret.
If you had been buried, it may have taken a long time for your rescuers to walk from the safe zone to your burial uphill, hearts beating, under stress, at altitude.
Plus, they're more exhausted when they arrive to start digging.
Skiing down bed surface is faster.

Not a slam- just a question.

Thanks for sharing - we all need to learn more.
Glad you are OK.

P.S. - I know the 3rd skier on the same line can trigger a slide, but the first is usually more likely and risky. Someone always has to bat clean-up, but should they be taking a totally different line?

Scott,

Gramps and I skied a different line, found a safe spot and watched APD. Your points are valid and I feel you answered your own question. In the best case scenario, all should ski the same aspect, line, etc. Your exactly right IMO.

I'm not sure exactly why the group split up. I know I didn't feel comfortable with the steeper line that APD was on, and when Gramps suggested continuing up the ridge to another lower angle line, I was relieved.

Our biggest mistake was not communicating, me wanting to get back quick to pick up my bro at the airport. And skiing this aspect all day without consequence.

[Trackhead]

I don't know how the sound is on the internet resolution of this video? But if you turn your speakers all the way up at the beginning, you will here a creapy groan, that is me yelling OK to APD in slow motion. Then, just as the fracture breaks, you can here two audible cracks. Wonder if that is the actual fracture of the slide?

[AltaPowderDaze]

I'm not sure exactly why the group split up. I know I didn't feel comfortable with the steeper line that APD was on, and when Gramps suggested continuing up the ridge to another lower angle line, I was relieved.

gramps actually went up the ridge to find a longer line and was suprised that it was less steep. i wanted the shortest way down at that point and we could see that the ridge was only getting steeper as we continued. oddly enough i think i found almost the steepest line on that ridge.

[cololi]

This whole thread is a great resource for analyzing bc travel. I applaude you guys for being so honest. I know I have learned something from it. Thanks again. Also, very glad that everyone walked away from this one. I am sure you guys were familiar withthe slope, was there any sort of odd feeling felt by anyone, nowing that the slope had claimed the lives of 2 people this year and has a long history of sliding? It has been a few days since I read this thread, so my apoligies if I missed something or can't remember. Also, If I recall correctly APD, fatigue was a factor in the other incredibly unfortunate incident you were involved with this year. I was hoping you could elaborate a little, was it a mental fatigue or a physical fatigue from either going on a longer tour than expected or altering you travel plans. Thanks for any response and please don't take it the wrong way, justtrying to get more first hand experiences.

[lemon boy]

I have a couple of questions for you guys (mostly for APD), please don't take any of them as rocks being chucked they aren't. I've watched the vid a few times and read the account a couple as well...

1. How much do you attribute dropping the cornice to setting off the avy? It appears that the peak in the crown is right at the point of impact and the slab appears to fail exactly along the skicut from there.

2. At approximately second 11 there is an obvious pole plant and unweighting. Is this caused by the slab failing or is it this:

it took all of my momentum from me as i was preparing to commit to the line

?????????????????

I think it is opt. B (in quotes).
Comments later...maybe.

[AltaPowderDaze]

cololi and lemon, i'm not entirely sure which was the culprit here. we had finished our goals for the day and were set to do some drainage skiing (not particularly stimulating) back to the bcc road. i had thought about roping up and digging a pit while th and gramps climbed on but i was starting to bonk and pulled out the rest of my trail mix instead. after i finished that i got my gear ready and took some snap shots of th/gramps skiing down. when it was my turn to go i got a final thought about the what if, just as i was calling ready but i still felt that my line on the left was solid. i was just less sure about what was on my right. i dropped in both for speed and impact. i wanted to make sure there was no way that something above me could release once i was below. i dropped in and 45ed over toward the subridge with the intent of commiting if nothing felt wrong. i did not even feel a collapse when it went, just the shear of the slab. i had begun to turn down the fall line when it went. i believe that i rode my previously unweighted downhill ski off balance once the slab moved. this may have been another reason that i lost all my momentum but i'm not sure that i could have skied off this thing if i hadn't turned. imo, it released quick and moved quick kinda like someone pulled a rug out from under me. trackhead should be able to use his video counter to find out how long it took but i'd guess 20 seconds seems right. i don't recall any powder cloud but i was only looking right infront of me to stay afloat. th and gramps could describe how the whole thing looked better than i could.

no offense taken in either question. the reason it is up here is to learn, so i thank you for the questions.

[AltaPowderDaze]

This whole thread is a great resource for analyzing bc travel. I applaude you guys for being so honest. I know I have learned something from it. Thanks again. Also, very glad that everyone walked away from this one. I am sure you guys were familiar withthe slope, was there any sort of odd feeling felt by anyone, nowing that the slope had claimed the lives of 2 people this year and has a long history of sliding?

that was actually my first time back there and as wra pointed out to me in a pm, you can't really tell exactly where you're at when you popup on that ridge. the thought of the snowshoers didn't occur to me while i was up there. i really only knew which way was down in this particular part of the drainage.

APD, fatigue was a factor in the other incredibly unfortunate incident you were involved with this year. I was hoping you could elaborate a little, was it a mental fatigue or a physical fatigue from either going on a longer tour than expected or altering you travel plans.

there were different factors involved in the two incidents. at twin lakes, we were so tired that we actually had trouble skiing down. that rarely has happend to either of us. usually it takes resort skiing to accomplish that, which i had done for a few hours prior to touring. basically physical fatigue affects you mentally. we made poor decisions based on time and not properly evaluating the slope above us. i know i had forgot the exposure that would be above us. we went around a few slide paths just to get where we were and i though the danger had passed until i saw where zach was traversing.

we both altered our plans (several times) and stayed out much longer than expected.


in mineral i was still aware that things could slide. it was about picking a safe way down the a slope (micro routefinding) that had stabilized. gramps and th did that. i chose the wrong one and did not effectivly test it before commiting. by that i mean i should have dug a pit or dropped a much larger cornice. i think the small cornices that were dropped may have lowered my initial suspicion of the slopes.

[gonzo]

to repeat the others, thanks for posting this guys.

something that came to mind when i watched the video and others have kind of mentioned: at the end of the film you pan out and you (TH and Gramps) are a pretty good distance away - maybe 150 - 200 yards and significantly downhill (but such is life i guess with the last one to go)...in hindsight would you have positioned yourselves differently?

[gramps]

Part of the reason I continued up the ridge was just cause I wanted a longer shot, but part of it was because the lines off the ridge where APD stopped looked steep as hell to me, even from the top, and I was looking for greener pastures in general. But me avoiding the steeps wasn't even a conscious decision at the time, just a reflex to seeing a slide path like that, that I knew we weren't going to take the time to properly analyze.

I'm not a fan of small cornice drops. I knew the fact they didn't set anything off didn't tell us shit about the stability, but again, I wasn't communicating. Yeah, if that little cornice was to set off a slide, it would tell you something for sure. But really, things just weren't that sensitive that day and we all knew that.

[lemon boy]

gramps to clarify if I was unclear: when I asked about dropping the cornice I was refering to jumping off of it.

Comments:

[Disclaimer]I don't bc as much as I could or should or did and do not consider myself more than conversant. Also noting for the record that I doubt there would be a midwinter day here in CO where I'd ski something that looked like that. Also again, I'm not chucking rocks.[/Disclaimer]

On the occasions when I perform a ski cut, I do it a lot differently and while it definitionally "ruins" the initial aestetics of the line (especially for the ski cutter) it also exposes one considerably less. Basically, FMM a ski cut is always completed from safe a) to "safe" b) and involves loading up the slope as much as possible but also regardless going from a to b and includes a full stop at b (and maybe another cut).

[monday morning QB]To my eye it looks like had you done a true a to b slope cut and had that as your plan (btw- I think in this context dropping off the cornice is appropriate) your chance of skiing off the slab would have been considerably higher. You would've potentially been able to simply turn off. As it appears, not only was your attention on the rest of the run but your weight never (at least in the clip) gets back to a point where you could effectively use your skis for anything other than that right turn into it... That was the thing that jumped out at me immediately when I viewed the clip was "damn, if he'd been "on" that right ski it would've been a no brainer... And it means you were committed to the line before any ski cut results could be known.

I only bring it up as it hasn't been discussed and not to supplant any of the other factors contributing to the accident (recognizing that you still would have set off the slide and also recognizing that the investigation crew set off further left hangfire). This is IMO another little contributory protocol breakdown.

For me at least this one echos Roman's slide in wolverine (at least a bit) with ski cuts and cornice drops (knowing that it was slope cuts and then a cornice drop that set off the avy there)[/MMQB]

Did I qualify all that enough? Again, I don't want to be offensive.

[AltaPowderDaze]

lemon, that's what i've been saying. i didn't properly test the slope. i didn't center punch it but when nothing went when i dropped in and i felt nothing in the first 10-15' i began to commit. after looking at trempers pictures, it would have been very hard to reach a safe spot on that ridge wihtout pulling more out above me. fyi, this line is very similar to what you might find in colorado. it was a thin snowpack with depth hoar and facets abundant. had i known that, like you, i never would have skied it. for the record, nothing about this was proper and i don't think i've claimed that but i don't mind anyone pointing out the flaws. that's how we learn.

[lemon boy]

And just think, if you hadn't a pussed out and gone for the gully you could've skied that ohhhh so tempting rib (that funneled snow back onto you). Prolly woulda had a funner day and we wouldn't all be here either :

[Trackhead]

APD, I was looking at the 'before' mineral photo with all the blast holes, and the shot of the discussed avy here.

It does indeed look like there is a faint bomb blast reminant just skiers right of your line.

Do you see it?

[greg]

thanks for this thread.

I've learned one thing about mountaineering: there is no such thing as absolute safety. and when it comes to avy danger this counts in particular. save slopes simply do not exist. there are just safer and less save slopes. so in my oppinion responsible mountaineering is not about safety - otherwise one would have to stay at home - but is about knowing what risk you are going to take and to conciously decide, if it (in my case - personal experiences) is worth for you to take that risk. or to put it in other words, I weigh the gains against the possible losses. unemotionally, I'ld call this riskmanagement.

I personally have the impression, that you kind of knew what risk you were about to take and still took it. If you took it conciously, then everything is fine.
If you didn't, it probably happened due to circumstances of the following kind (some of them were already mentioned): groupdynamics (of course, I have no clue, but normally, the less people are around you, the less save one feels...so at first sight that reason doesn't make a lot of sense), fatigue, fear...

I'm probably simply projecting my personal experiences on you - but thinking this way helped me to analyze my mistakes and it hopefully objectifies my decisiontaking in future.

glad you're fine and you're as always sharing your knowledge and experiences in such a straightforward manner.

[ak_powder_monkey]

Glad you guys didn't have to actully use your beacons that is one scary vid. Glad you posted I learned something and you learned something, thats what this forum is for right?

[Sphinx]

Amazing that you managed to stay in the same orientation and relative control during the entire ride.

That video made my knees shake. Very glad everybody's all right.

[AltaPowderDaze]

The question is - did you feel at any time that your skis were pulling you under - or were they keeping you afloat? I've often thought that if I can keep my skis under me, they can be a life raft. But if I couldn't, I'd roll to get them to release. Since you've experienced this, thought?

i almost went under a few times but i'm not sure i can attribute that to the skis. i was glad they stayed on in this case but had it been a more violent tumbling i'd have been in trouble. i also think that if i had made it past the track and gotten down to the deposition zone that i'd been pulled down by my skis. if you want to roll to drop the skis you'd better do it early in the slide. after it gets moving it is anyones guess as to what will happen.

i don't know about trying to roll in it but that would depend on the depth of the slab and its hardness. i wouldn't want to do it on a deep soft slab but most deep slabs are approaching 20-30% H2O content and atleast 1 finger hard.


low din settings will help you drop your skis. i keep mine high just because i am often exposed above cliffs and other no fall zones where i need the skis at all costs. if you are just pow skiing then you can go with the din chart's recommendation.