Beaters in the BC

[PacRimRider1]

A friend and I went to rocky point today for a bit of fresh(er) snow. Even though it is a fairly tracked out area, we were both wearing beacons and shovels as a result of seeing most of baldy slide naturally and human triggered. When we get to the top and look in, there is a lady who can hardly ski and two kids with her that look like they just got out of the park skiing down. The mom had gone down a low angle tracked out section, but the kids took the traverse to skiers right where there was untracked snow.

As we passed on the way up, my partner made sure she told a story about a guy who was caught in a slide there and as his partner skied down to search, he too set one off. It didn't seem to faze them.

My question is, is there any law concerning idiots going out of bounds? If I can't legally smoke pot because it is, I guess, harmful to my health, surely there is something restricting these assholes from getting themselves burried by avalanches. As a skier, is it my responsibility to lecture these people, or alert someone if they do get caught in one? I'm sure as hell not going to be late for work digging for carcasses.

[AltaPowderDaze]

hopefully this won't turn into another darwin/natural selection thread. save that stuff for the main forum where people will think it's cool. this kind of thing is getting more prevalent. people are in search of the experience and they want to share that experience with the ones they love. blissfully they are often ignorant of the underlying factors that cause danger. if it's bluebird nothing can go wrong. that is the attitude often encountered when you run into a resort accessed bc lapper. powstash can tell you about his encounters up in parleys but it seems they are mostly the same. it is rare that you find safety gear with them and even more rare that they actually know how and are prepared to use them. the only thing you can do is try to make them aware of surrounding dangers (cite the avy report if need be) and try to be helpful. you don't want to take responsibility for them but you will have it on you conscience forever if you turn your back on them and something happens.


btw, that place gets little respect from the "beaters" and moderatly avy educated alike. it slides with regularity much like wolverine cirque but is treated like resort slope. first day catherines is open it is a pow frenzy to see who can get first tracks which doesn't leave any time for real hazard evaluation, just speculation.

[snorkeldeep]

backcountry skiing is supposedly the fastest growing segment of the ski industry for the past few years.. or so i hear. it would be pretty cool to see some good promotion of education on a lot of gear purchases. i.e. every time someone sells a pair of touring bindings they should send a brochure for an avy class or something. i bet this is probably happening a bit already, but as more and more people start getting on touring gear, we'll see the jongs in more and more dangerous places. not too hard to get some freerides and some skins and go to town these days. its unfortunate that they not only put themselves at risk, they put the people responsible for finding their dead bodies at risk as well. hard to think of a more selfish irresponsible thing to do, especially with family.

[Trackhead]

surely there is something restricting these assholes from getting themselves burried by avalanches.

By calling these people assholes, you are calling yourself an asshole. As they too, enjoy being in the mountains as you do. Because they aren't as knowledgeable about snow science as you may be, doesn't justify your elitist response.

Plenty of people like yourselves get the chop in slides every year. And they are 'educated' about snow science.

This is the attitude in climbing too. I see the 'beaters' and wonder if they will survive the day. But they have the same right to be there as I do.

[Platinum Pete]

As they too, enjoy being in the mountains as you do. Because they aren't as knowledgeable about snow science as you may be, doesn't justify your elitist response.

Plenty of people like yourselves get the chop in slides every year. And they are 'educated' about snow science.

This is the attitude in climbing too. I see the 'beaters' and wonder if they will survive the day. But they have the same right to be there as I do.

Everybody is a beginner at some point. I made a bunch of stupid beginner mistakes, and I bet alot of people who enjoy the mountains did, too. It's easy for me to spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on gear and classes now that I know it is as cool out there as it is. Before I tested the waters, I would never have paid so much - and if I had bought all the gear before learning thing one, I'd have been called posuer or gaper or something else.
I have had the same reaction as PacRimRider on dozens of occasions, but I remember a story a climber buddy of mine tells. He's an amazing climber, has put up first ascents in some very intense ranges, and told me that the first time he climbed Mt. Hood, he put his crampons on in the car and threw sparks as he walked across the parking lot.

[AltaPowderDaze]

this article echos the sentimates of most bc travelers as they go thru their progression. i think it is a good one and shows some of the attitudes that you can encounter when trying to help.

[ScottG]

Bullshit. these folks are dangerous. Critcizing them is NOT elitist.

If they only killed themselves, I could write it off as natural selection.

Once you experience idiots skiing ABOVE you and threatening YOUR safety, things change.
Even "experienced" BC folks with full avvy gear have done this to me, and I don't particularly like it.

Not that I advocate any restrictions on the backcountry. But just be careful and thoughtful when coming in above someone else. Particularly if you are hucking something - jumping impact is a huge load change on the snowpack.

Its like being a surfer jong and snaking someone else's wave - only instead of taking your wave, they might actually take your life.

[AltaPowderDaze]

the one remedy i've found for this is to select good partners and tour earlier, further and longer than the next guy. when you don't see anyone else (like last thursday) then you've got no problem with beaters unless they are in your party.

resort accessed bc seems to be a reoccuring theme when it comes to problems like these. that doesn't mean access should be closed but maybe there could be some sort of resort control where you have to have a card that proves you have taken basic avy training. this is kind of like hunter safety cards that most states require before you can buy a license. those over a certain age are usually grandfathered in. this is just an idea, maybe not a good one but certainly worth talking about.

[L7]

I don't necessarily think people in the backcountry are assholes and I don't think being clueless in the backcountry makes you an asshole. Being in the backcountry without a clue AND ignoring advice does make one an asshole in my books though. Not trying to offend and sorry if that makes me elitist or another asshole or by mentioning darwin just means I'm trying to be cool. I do think coddling and protecting the feelings of clueless backcountry people who ignore advice perpetuates a serious problem that puts many at risk and not just the first party.

I don't know how many times I've heard after a dumb performance, 'no worries mate, no one got hurt'. That isn't the point, point is someone could have been hurt or killed and then I'm supposed to feel bad about this tragedy that was totally avoidable and I or someone may have helped to try and avoid. Fewer and fewer people take responsibilty for their actions and protecting them by calling others elistist isn't going to change that.

The recent Instant Karma thread was a good case in point. Someone does something ridiculously stupid and dangerous and suffers a horrible outcome (could have been the cyclist instead) and the guy who supposedly filmed it calls it a 'freak accident'. This is getting more and more common in our society not just the BC and does nothing for people learning from mistakes blatantly stupid or otherwise. I have no doubt the guy who suffered this 'freak accident' will yet prove darwin right if that's really what he believes it was.

Recently a Calgary couple and another friend were killed in Austria. They did things right and hired an acclaimed professional guide to take them into the back country in a period of poor stability. The guide took them on an accepted 'safe route' traversing below a large slope. A group of snowboarders entered from above despite unsafe conditions and triggered a massive slide that killed at least three of them. I believe the snowboarders lived. Are they assholes? I bet the ophaned kids think so.

The Austrian guide federation announced the guide did nothing wrong and is a very cautious guide. Personally I think the guide should have taken into account the effect of others entering above since they were adjacent to lifts. I also think Austria should look at their 'it's your responsibility exclusively' policy as it is quite apparent that doesn't protect other responsible parties.

A few years back the son of a former prime minister was killed when an small slide pushed him out into an unfrozen lake and he drowned while struggling to get his pack and gear off. It was widely reported that it was an unavoidable tragedy and the group had made no mistakes. That day half of their group stayed in the cabin uncertain of the stability. The other half headed out due to obligations and crossed under a steep newly loaded slope with the lake (terrain trap) below. It doesn't seem they unbuckled packs or got a rope at the ready or anything like that. Did they make huge stupid mistakes or a simple oversight that is much clearer in hindsight? Point is someone died and I think it dishonours Michel Trudeau's memory to say no mistakes were made instead of allowing others to learn from the mistakes.

APD recently was involved in a tragedy and is the first guy I know of that stood up and said 'this is what we did wrong' or more to the point said 'this is how we misjudged our condition that led to us making a navigation error'. People who hadn't thought before to have enough food in their bags to prevent fatigue from clouding judgement have the chance to learn the importance of a minor indiscretion. In this case someone experienced making mostly good decisions paid a tragic price.

APD has allowed someone else to learn the easy way how a simple slip can grow into a tragedy. Blaming someone or something else or a freak accident would not have done that and neither would the coddling of well meaning 'non elitists' helped that happen.

I'm not trying to offend or seem elitist or cool or an asshole. Really all I want to do is avoid the carnage associated with an activity many love. I don't want to see anyone prove Darwin right but by pointing out the application of Darwin's theorys I'm trying to point out the importance of not proving the bearded man right by taking blind risks, ingoring signs/advice/warngings and such. It's not to be cool but it is a long way from coddling some stupid asshole as well because I'm not very PC and I don't think coddling is getting an important job done.

[AltaPowderDaze]

L7,

there is a balance between coddling and jumping down someones throat in the bc that few understand. i see both ends when i'm near the resorts. knowledgable bc skiers will heckle and be down right rude to the newbies that are out there, possibly making mistakes. in a perfect world you could quickly share your thoughts and everyone would be safe and happy but sometimes the roles are reversed. you try to be polite by pointing out safer areas and they jump down your throat for trying to control them or something.

a short example:

i was skiing sunset outside of alta on a questionable day. i took a safe route down and was breaking a bootpack back to catherines pass when 3 skiers with apparently limited knowledge of protocol dropped in rocky pointe (a steeper more avy prone section). my bootpack isn't completely safe from naturals if they are big enough but it is unlikely that i could trigger one from my booter. what can happen is that someone could trigger one from the top and it could step down and bury my tracks. so to say the least i was not happy but i still calmly asked the first skier to please not ski down an avy path while i am within the runout (alpha angle). his response was for me to piss off. if i was still in highschool i would have let him know how much i appreciated his comment and sent him to the deck. instead i mumbled something about darwin and moved on.

my point is that not every situation can be handled perfectly where everyone comes away happy but you should strive for that anyway. no need to jump to conclusions about someone until you have atleast spoken with them or observed their actions to be completely ridiculous. it is just not enough to get all hot and turn a blind eye to every poor decision you see but be tactful out there. there are other ways to handle these situations rather than yelling and getting everone upset.



to the darwin theorist out there:

i hear this kind of stuff all the time and sometimes you can say it and watch it play itself out. before you can call somebody out on something like this you had better understand it yourself and then understand what that "beater" is thinking. it is a lot different when it is one of your friends or family who is dead from a simple mistake. maybe they jay-walked and didn't look both ways. are you gonna pull the darwin card on them?

[L7]

It has to be pretty blatant stupidity before I'm pulling darwin comments. There are a lot of simple innocent mistakes that can have tragic outcomes that we pretty much all make. It does bother me quite a bit when common sense is totally usurped by 'mob sense'.

A few weeks ago we had major dump after all the warmth we suffered followed by a freeze and then this new snow on top. The avy boys apparently were pretty slow getting things open but typically things open methodically one after another as they can clear them. A snowboard rep for a major company I spoke to was there and his answer to slow openings was going under the boundary rope (perfectly legal) with no gear to ride a SE facing wind loading slope. This slope is totally uncontrolled but accessible easily from the lift. This is an amazingly common occurrence but incredibly stupid for a guy who should well know better. I didn't say anything to the guy but I'm sure if I'd been there and asked if he knew what he was doing it would have been poorly received no matter how I approached it.

I just find it's so prevalant to take these risks that no one wants to hear what's wrong with it because mob sense proves to them it's safe. It bugs me when someone who should know better does something like ducking a rope at a ridiculously stupid time and then some poor clueless bastard who knows nothing follows the tracks assuming it must be safe. I feel bad for the guy who followed the tracks unwittingly, I feel anger at the guy who shouldn't have ever put the first set in and should have known better.

You may not have reacted to your pissy pal on Sunset as if you were in high school but you also didn't remove the threat or make him aware of why he shouldn't do it again. I'm not saying you should have gone ballistic but somewhere there has to be an effective answer that doesn't involve gunplay.
If that answer involves a general negative attitude to those putting others at risk AND ignoring advice it is still a start.